From Software future souls: open-world or not?

[Machocruz]

Yes, but I also associate other games with the word.
Blobbers would be an example, or the King's Field games.
Certainly not Sekiro.

I suppose it was more tree-like than labyrinthine, with a lot of branching. I had not heard people raving about the level design as they had with other From games so I was pleasantly surprised by its complexity.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

What, Elden ring has the guide lines from the way points, it's more hand holding than Wasteland or Wizardry 8.

I actually thought From Soft avoided a lot of pitfalls of open world design, such as making the horse super convenient to use (it's never out of reach, always one button away,) agile, not a liability in most areas, ability to collect items without harvest animations, and effective in combat. It's the first horse in an open world game I've played that didn't feel like it made the game a bigger chore to play since Shadow of the Collosus.

 

[Skinwalker]

They should do a smaller open-world, something more in the vein of Gothic 1&2. Open-world RPG did not always mean a gigantic procedurally-generated wilderness filled with generic content. I think Oblivion and Gothic 3 had popularized this atrocious concept, and then Ubeisoft achieved complete global saturation.

 

[Spike]

I liked the labyrinthesques of Sekiro's level design.

I agree and I'd like to see it return, no matter what their next project is.

Sekiro's level design was great, but "labyrinthesques"?
Really?

I'd say Sekiro has even better design than Dark Souls [...]

Nah.

I got lost on where to go next no fewer than 3 times playing Sekiro. It's definitely "labyrinthesques" Also, comparing DS to Sekiro is just an unfair comparison, since DS is only about 70% of a complete game. And the other is a ninja game with grappling hooks and vertical world design. Better not to make that comparison.

Yes, levels themselves being the biggest challenge is what I miss from the days of DS and DS II. When these games became more about fighting bosses I started liking them a lot less.

Unfortunately the success of ER is due to open world + boss rush. ER is fundamentally a boss rush game and normie fans love that shit. That's why there's so much love for ER and DS3 in the nuFandom and so much hate for DS2.

I wonder sometimes if Elden Ring 2 would sell as much as the first game, after all the newfags who go swept up by the hype experienced what a tedious slog ER actually is. I was actually curious enough to google normie discussions on reddit about it and there seems to be plenty of people saying that ER open world is boring shit and bosses are terribly designed. Hell, I even noticed some people claim they enjoyed Dark Souls II more than ER and those posts getting decent amount of likes. Of course, maybe there's even more people who think ER is "omg 10/10 masterpiss". I definitely am hoping that if they make Elden Ring 2 that shit will flop.

Sometimes I wonder what universe you guys live in where ER had a bad open world, had bad bosses (aside from a few rotten eggs), or is a bad game in general... It's not a 10/10, but it's definitely a 9/10 in my book. Not only compared to other games, but also compared to the rest of From's catalogue (which I've played).

Or why you'd think that Fromsoft would even make "Elden Ring II" instead of trying something completely different. I guess that's just the culture of this forum. All critical, all the time, and if a game doesn't suit your tastes, it's objectively shit.

I actually disagree with the sentiment going around here saying muh bad boss fights. They're good fights. They're just reused too much as per many terrain/dungeons. Open world is a mixed bag. Overall another great game because From delivers, but lacking in various aspects. Their best games overall are Sekiro and Demons's Souls, maybe Bloodborne too. Also just fun to romp through DaS 3.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I actually disagree with the sentiment going around here saying muh bad boss fights. They're good fights. They're just reused too much as per many terrain/dungeons. Open world is a mixed bag. Overall another great game because From delivers, but lacking in various aspects. Their best games overall are Sekiro and Demons's Souls, maybe Bloodborne too. Also just fun to romp through DaS 3.

The issue a lot of us have with Elden Ring boss fights is they've become unnatural to fight compared to previous bosses. After 5 souls games players have learned to roll and hit a boss so they have to add weird delayed attacks designed to roll catch you or bosses have 10 hit combos that come out blindly fast and have specific directions and timings to dodge. Most people like and enjoy Gold Godfrey in the capital because he has a good pacing to him and a fair moveset. Mean while Margott reads your inputs to throw daggers are you as you heal and has intentionally wonky timing on his combos designed to catch you out if you roll slightly too early.

Elden Ring bosses have flanderized themselves in order to punish expert players. But in doing so they've lost a lot of the charm and enjoyment as boss fights. I'm okay with learning a boss with wonky timing and punishing early rolls but I'm not okay with learning 10 of those bosses in a row and all of them having a phase 2. I have to learn not only 1 unnatural boss but I also have to learn a second one on top of that when the phase changes and they gain an entirely new moveset. I can do it, I can do it at SL1 even. I just don't see a point of having to grind bosses intentionally designed to fuck with me over and over when I could play a game with better combat and better bosses.


This video is 6 years old and everything in it applies to Elden Ring even more than Dark souls 3. I burned out on the series after 2 and I couldn't even touch Nioh because I'm so fed up of the souls boss formula now. And newer bosses are more of the same but random lol fuck yous theown in.

 

[Multidirectional]

I burned out on the series after 2 and I couldn't even touch Nioh because I'm so fed up of the souls boss formula now.

But Nioh isn't even really a Souls-like and sure as fuck doesn't follow the same formula. It only has couple of elements stolen from it, other than that it's a different type of game. On top of that it has way better combat than any From game I've played. I'm specifically talking Nioh 2 as I only played little of the first game, but it probably applies to that one as well.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

But Nioh isn't even really a Souls-like and sure as fuck doesn't follow the same formula. It only has couple of elements stolen from it, other than that it's a different type of game. On top of that it has way better combat than any From games I've played. I'm specifically talking Nioh 2 as I only played little of the first game, but it probably applies to that one as well.

Nioh 1 is basically a souls game with stances for the hour or two I put into it. It's the same "grind against this high damage enemy until you learn when to dodge" boss encounter. Which isn't very engaging to me.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Elden Ring is still pretty much Souls with the open world.

I'd say it should follow Armored Core's idea, mission-based level design with mission-ranking.
Fuck muh immershun.

I'd actually love to see that, it'd bring a fresh new take on the formula.

Unfortunately sales-wise AC6 has been FS' least successful game since DS2. And given the differences in the size of the market and the studio's renown....maybe since Demon's Souls. Plus it didn't win any major awards or GOTYs. Wasn't even nominated for most of them. While Elden Ring is the exact opposite in all those respects.

So I guess we'll get another boring open world in a genre that absolutely doesn't fucking need it.

I don't think so. Ac6 was a deliberate throw-back to a niche series that barely innovated at all. It also looked cheaply made, unlike Elden Ring. I doubt they spent much time on it or expected it to be huge. From always seems to alternate between games where they try hard and games where they just quickly redo a successful formula.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

But Nioh isn't even really a Souls-like and sure as fuck doesn't follow the same formula. It only has couple of elements stolen from it, other than that it's a different type of game. On top of that it has way better combat than any From games I've played. I'm specifically talking Nioh 2 as I only played little of the first game, but it probably applies to that one as well.

I distinguish between From-likes, or Souls-likes in the style of From, and Souls-likes, or games with the central "drop souls when you die in a respawning world" mechanic. From-likes are always Souls-likes, but Souls-likes don't have to be From-likes.

From-Likes:

• Lies of P
• Salt and Sanctuary
• Lords of the Fallen
• The Surge 1 and 2

Souls Likes:

• Nioh 1 and 2
• Wo Long
• Remnant 2
• Stranger of Paradise
• Jedi Survivor

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I'll go one further, not only should the next one not be Open World (Labyrinths with some open environments my preference), but it should also be entirely skill-based, and thus do away with levelling.
...

I've been advocating exactly the opposite; From Software had already become much more action-oriented with Bloodborne, which also had relatively limited chaarcter customization/progression options, and this influenced Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring. It would be much more interesting for them to look back to their King's Field series and create something where levels, equipment, items, and abilities are even more important than they were in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1.

 

[Silverfish]

I'm okay with learning a boss with wonky timing and punishing early rolls but I'm not okay with learning 10 of those bosses in a row and all of them having a phase 2.

Made worse by the fact that when trying to do it 'properly', you'll have that nagging thing in the back of your head saying "why am I doing this over and over when I could just summon some spirit ashes and spam the reduvia projectile?"

 

[Damned Registrations]

Since AC6 played like a souls game with guns and a jetpack, it'd be mice if they made a souls game that played like Armored Core; Make the player a mercenary in a fantasy setting, rather than loot in the stage you get in at the end based on performance, choosing missions from a list rather than a single world, having a ton of options to tweak your equipment loadout and skills from a central hub interface rather than various merchants. One massive health pool to get you through the entire mission without checkpoints. I think it'd make for a really cool game concept. Something similar to Tenchu, I suppose, but with more build options and a less linear progression of missions.

Never gonna happen, but I can dream.

 

[cvv]

it'd be nice if they made a souls game that played like Armored Core

From what I've seen Digital Extremes, the Warframe devs, are making just that - a mission based warframe-like soulslike. It's even called Soulframe for chrissake.

My jaded ass is actually looking forward to seeing more.

 

[Damned Registrations]

From what I've seen Digital Extremes, the Warframe devs, are making just that - a mission based warframe-like soulslike. It's even called Soulframe for chrissake.

My jaded ass is actually looking forward to seeing more.

That sounds awesome, honestly. Warframe is a great game, but I can't get into it at this point wiht all the legacy crap I'd have to work through to get a decent character. I'm about 12 grinds out of the loop. Actually, even then I'd probably still play because I just enjoy the gameplay, but it started killing my left wrist doing all the bullet jumping. At any rate, a brand new game without all the baggage of old systems has great potential.

 

[cvv]

Yea Warframe is the only multiplayer game I can not only stomach but actually love. But it's still live-service so I always play only for a few weeks every two years or so before I get my fill.

Anyway, the Soulframe concept sounds amazing but the game's gonna live or die with the execution. As we've seen over the last 10 years producing a good soulslike is WAY more difficult than it looks.

 

[Falksi]

I'll go one further, not only should the next one not be Open World (Labyrinths with some open environments my preference), but it should also be entirely skill-based, and thus do away with levelling.
...

I've been advocating exactly the opposite; From Software had already become much more action-oriented with Bloodborne, which also had relatively limited chaarcter customization/progression options, and this influenced Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring. It would be much more interesting for them to look back to their King's Field series and create something where levels, equipment, items, and abilities are even more important than they were in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1.

Maybe it's that middle ground that's the issue.

Souls games have now been sussed out to the point where they are neither deep RPGs, nor testing enough for skilled gamers. The depth they offer is pretty shallow and predictable and the tests they offer can all be worked around by grinding and item/stat adjustment.

Maybe they could experiment more with both extremes using different series?

 

[Maxie]

souls peons will lap up whatever including a souls puyo puyo clone

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Souls games have now been sussed out to the point where they are neither deep RPGs, nor testing enough for skilled gamers. The depth they offer is pretty shallow and predictable and the tests they offer can all be worked around by grinding and item/stat adjustment.

Make levels full of traps and NPCs that lie to you and try to fuck you over.. oh wait they did that and it was the best souls game. Being observant on your adventure should be a primary need to survive unlike today where it's easy breezing and maybe 1 or 2 ganks. But it's usually one super powerful mini boss that kills you in modern souls adventures not traps.

souls peons will lap up whatever including a souls puyo puyo clone

Does that exist? Asking for a friend..

Solaire Amiibo broke me on that sort of thing. I never liked the sun bro circle jerk, I always felt sun bros ruined people's games and prevented them feeling accomplished for beating their own challenge. Making that faggot into a piece of nintendo's garbage was the point where I knew Souls was dead in the way I loved it and now it was bing bing wahoo and reddit e celebs.

 

[Dadd]

Nothing wrong with Puyo Puyo

 

[Multidirectional]

But Nioh isn't even really a Souls-like and sure as fuck doesn't follow the same formula. It only has couple of elements stolen from it, other than that it's a different type of game. On top of that it has way better combat than any From games I've played. I'm specifically talking Nioh 2 as I only played little of the first game, but it probably applies to that one as well.

Nioh 1 is basically a souls game with stances for the hour or two I put into it. It's the same "grind against this high damage enemy until you learn when to dodge" boss encounter. Which isn't very engaging to me.

You're wrong. Play Nioh 2, the more complete version of the game. Yeah you might need to do a bit more dodgefagging at beginning, while you are low on tools and no decent equipment, but you can build in such way that requires very little dodging. The way I like to go is B Agility and lots of Toughness, end game it's always close to 400, max allowed. Toughness is Poise and Stability in one stat and I believe not going for lots of it is just gimping yourself in that game. I find block overall to be a lot better than dodge for damage prevention with the way I build. On top of that I like go for lots of life leech, particularly stacking lots of Life Recovery per Amrita Absorbtion with Exctraction Talisman which makes enemies drop amrita orbs as you hit them + Life Recovery on Yokai Ability Hit. That shit is really strong. It allows me to pretty much keep comboing them while needing to use heal items or even dodge/block much more seldom.
In both of my Odachi and Kusarigama playthroughs the hardest part of the game was the first half of first NG cycle. Then my build starts to come together and I start dying a lot less. And starting from that point I was doing a lot of bosses first try, even on my first character. I find bosses in Nioh 2 to be much more fair than in DS III or ER. They are designed to be beatable on first try just by making good use of core mechanics and playing on instinct instead of memorizing every single fucking move of theirs. Although with multiple NG cycles, which are absolutely worth doing if you want to get the best items, you will eventually of course. There's actually just one end game gimmick boss that I dislike, I have no serious issues with others. It's a much more free-form combat system, a lot more open to experimentation.

 

[Ryzer]

I would like them to stop re-making the same fucking game over and over again and start something new for a change.
They have basically released the same Demon Souls game but worse with each new installment with little to no change in many areas.

Bloodborne was great to me because it was NEW, everything was redone from the ground up(or Sekiro).

They should purely and simply abandon the Souls formula and innovate.

I'm clearly fed up of Dark Souls, enough.

 

[cvv]

I would like them to stop re-making the same fucking game over and over again and start something new for a change.

I'm clearly fed up of Dark Souls, enough.

There's no law requiring you to play FS games you know. Tons of soulslikes, souls-lites, soulsvanias and other shit by now from other devs.

You want kindda souls but different? Play Nioh or Darksiders 3 or Ashen or Remnant or Jedi or a plethora of 2D plaformer "souls" like Salt&Sanctuary. All of them very good games that took a few elements from souls but are otherwise doing their own thing.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I would like them to stop re-making the same fucking game over and over again and start something new for a change.

I'm clearly fed up of Dark Souls, enough.

There's no law requiring you to play FS games you know. Tons of soulslikes, souls-lites, soulsvanias and other shit by now from other devs.

You want kindda souls but different? Play Nioh or Darksiders 3 or Ashen or Remnant or Jedi or a plethora of 2D plaformer "souls" like Salt&Sanctuary. All of them very good games that took a few elements from souls but are otherwise doing their own thing.

Ashen is underrated, it's a really comfy game but also very challenging. I should return to it. Salt and Sacrifice is also pretty good, although I'd consider Blasphemous 2 to be the peak of 2D souls games.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I would like them to stop re-making the same fucking game over and over again and start something new for a change.

I'm clearly fed up of Dark Souls, enough.

There's no law requiring you to play FS games you know. Tons of soulslikes, souls-lites, soulsvanias and other shit by now from other devs.

You want kindda souls but different? Play Nioh or Darksiders 3 or Ashen or Remnant or Jedi or a plethora of 2D plaformer "souls" like Salt&Sanctuary. All of them very good games that took a few elements from souls but are otherwise doing their own thing.

I'll add to this, FS can only make games at the pace it does by reusing assets and iterating. You want something totally new every time? You'll get like 1 game every 5 years.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I would like them to stop re-making the same fucking game over and over again and start something new for a change.

I'm clearly fed up of Dark Souls, enough.

There's no law requiring you to play FS games you know. Tons of soulslikes, souls-lites, soulsvanias and other shit by now from other devs.

You want kindda souls but different? Play Nioh or Darksiders 3 or Ashen or Remnant or Jedi or a plethora of 2D plaformer "souls" like Salt&Sanctuary. All of them very good games that took a few elements from souls but are otherwise doing their own thing.

I'll add to this, FS can only make games at the pace it does by reusing assets and iterating. You want something totally new every time? You'll get like 1 game every 5 years.

Elden Ring took 6 unless you want to count Sekiro and I don't think many people do. It's such a worse game and is clearly a Westernised Tenchu made for activision missing the charm of the original series and none of the good aspects of the Souls games. All but shovelware.