Fuding our own crpg: A serious discussion.

[crufty]

I love how the one legitimate answer gets tossed out for no reason at all. Classic.

Listen to Annie. print out the post and stare at it every day until it makes sense.

Making games is hard. Very hard. And programmers are lazy. Very lazy. And when people find out you are a programmer, the first thing they do is say 'hey man i got this idea...'

my advice, find yourself some compsci cats in college, and become a pimp. trade features for skin and psychotropics. you will have more luck with that approach then trying to find funding.

but beyond that, you dont even need to program to make a game. if you can write it all up, and forget about design, just write what the hell you want your game to do. its a thought experiment, and its hella hard. forget about combat systems and magic trivia, but focus on the GAME, what makes it fun.

for what its worth i have about 30-40 started projects, completely abandoned because of time commitments elsewhere...i simply do not have the time to put in the infrastructure required to make a game FUN. How do you load games? Save games? Pause? There is a LOT LOT LOT of boring repetitive crud that goes into it. I think the games would be fun as hell, but realistically I love money more then gaming so down the tubes. And these days, I think I could make more money pushing trashy trance on idiot teenagers on itunes simply because the idiot teenager market is so much LARGER.

so forget about making your own game, make your own adventure first. you don't need an engine, or even a computer. that is advice that will pay itself back no matter what actually happens.

ps. Anybody really serious about making a crpg, I would suggest starting with interactive fiction. The persistent object modeling database in TAD is the SHIZ for prototyping.

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

::sigh:: It is a BIG STEP from throwing out ideas of cool shit to making stuff that actually WORKS. And the process of making shit that works can make even the neatest of stuff end up on the cutting room floor. Why, I had a quest ready to go for SoZ that involved BEER! Making BEER - BETTER BEER! But we had no time and it would have required more work than we had time for. So beerquest = DENIED. It happens. Scope, and the management thereof, is shit that even BIG COMPANIES take forever to get right (or, in the case of many, NEVER DO AT ALL).

Make a mod - start with that. Something small-scale first. I know it sounds piddly, I know it's more enticing to move towards a big project, but really - get a minor project done first before you move towards a larger one.

And surprise surprise, someone thinks I'm not a chick. Yes, I have a man-jaw. Also man-shoulders. And wide hips. BUT I LACK A PENIS, HOORAY! Thank you. 2 X chromosomes and a vagina. Can we take me seriously now k thx? Willing to help with game, just tryin' to give advice.

...not to mention my excellent cans, which no I will not show. Focus on gaming! FOCUSSSSSS! :twisted:

 

[Andhaira]

For myself I was only thinking of getting funding and then working in a management capacity. Also working on a storyline and plot and dialogue (i.e. writing)

So working on a mod wont really help me since i donn't have nor am I looking to get programming skils.

OTOH I do get what you are saying; working on a mod will expose me to the different things regarding game development.

Have you played Eschalon btw? Yo really should, and then hopefully shed some light on how you think this guy (basliskwrangler) got thie game made independantly.

@Vaultdweller: Which reminds me VD, have you ever talked with basliskwrnagler, or Jeff Vogel? You know, to get some pointers, or just to chat and hang out with fellow indie devs?

 

[Davaris]

Listen to Annie.

Even if you get a super 3D engine, you are no where near getting anything working. An RPG engine is like adding another engine inside a 3D shooter engine. Then you've got to script and debug the game, which if its Fallout standard, is like writing another engine on top. NWN2 is ready to go and it has art, so you can start work now instead of distracting yourself for years writing engines that will be out of date when you are finished.

Hiring programmers and artists full time is not going to happen, unless you have serious money to spend.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also working on a storyline and plot and dialogue (i.e. writing)

That never fails to amuse me.


....


Annie... HAWT!!!

Although I may be a closet homosexual, who knows?

 

[Suchy]

Guys, Esenthel is a must. Just look at this beauty:

By the way I can make ya some music. And script - if it ever surfaces anywhere above a bunch of random ideas.

YES, SEE I DO HAVE GIRL PARTS

Impossible. You post on The Codex.

 

[Kiree]

Are we sure Annie Carlson isn't a man? After events around here of late one can never be certain. Also, just look at that jaw line.

Yes, the jaw line is always a dead giveaway. Annie can't fool the Codex, we are all experts now.



Andhaira, do you have management experience? Or are you perhaps an accomplished writer?

 

[Luzur]

..not to mention my excellent cans, which no I will not show. Focus on gaming! FOCUSSSSSS! Twisted Evil

ya know, you could use that a a reward for completing a RPG project.

first one that gets done gets to see pics! :D

 

[Andhaira]

Andhaira, do you have management experience? Or are you perhaps an accomplished writer?

Yes to both.

Well, actually if by accomplished writer you mean someone who has written extensively and with a point, and has gooten priase for it then yes. But I have not YET published anything for money, but thats only because of time constraints. (I worked full time prior to getting laid off)

 

[crufty]

Even if you get a super 3D engine, you are no where near getting anything working. An RPG engine is like adding another engine inside a 3D shooter engine. Then you've got to script and debug the game, which if its Fallout standard, is like writing another engine on top

More truth.

Ogre is so far from being rpg ready, its laughable. You know how much work it is just to display intro screens, menu states, windows etc? And that is not unique to ogre by any stretch. Not to mention strange performance issues before you get to the game. This is not to hate on Ogre--Ogre is a great engine.

You can bank on 400-1000 hours to get things going from scratch before even getting into good game type stuff. Even roguelikes have a fair amount of startup time required.

I myself would be modding up NWN2 up the wazoo except its not turn based.


I would also say that mgt experience does not make a game. A game is made by people who have vision. and indie games, I have noticed, are served best by people who are able to accurately communicate that vision, either by directly contributing assets (programming, art, etc) or description / interaction with their peers.

This kind of post is a recurring theme here on the codex. To get money, you have to show why people should take a risk in you, unless you yourself are fabulously wealthy. When people invest--people being banks, capitalists, angels, whatever--they are investing in the risk of failure vs the reward of success, and that depends highly on you and your market. Everyone knows making a game is very expensive, and crpgs have gotten a rep as being risky--any capitalist is going to do a google and see troika and think 'uh-oh'. You can point to FO3 and Oblivion, but then your game better really look and feel like FO3 and Oblivion or the capitalist might think the investment is too risky.

I would suggest...

So anyone who is serious about making a game should define the game first, what makes it fun, what will get people excited. Then go as far as you can with what is available and what your skills are. If you have no desire to mod or program, I would say forget it. There are thousands of people who have these ideas for programmers/artists, and are interested in telling artists/programmers what to do, but not really interested in doing anything more then taking a cut of the revenue once the product is released. Think about it--why would anyone good, w/talent, work for you? They could just think of their own money making idea and go from there, unless you are very well funded (and it sounds like you are not).

But if you have a good idea, and have taken it as far as you can, once you get stuck, see if you can rope in a few suckers to get it to a deployable state. You'll probably have a rotation of folks as real life commitments always get in the way. Even if you are able to round up the necessary crew, you will need to keep people on task, make sure the product is sound and not ruining your vision with bugs and craptastic features.

So...mod NWN2 and see if you are up for it first. It would also lend you credibility to your pitch when looking for real funding (see, I have made mods A, B and C, which all had critical acclaim etc etc etc).

All this btw seems like common sense to me so I wonder....

 

[racofer]

Hmm, no wonder he peeps at obsidian can't seem to get any work done.

@Annie C.: Do you have some sort of a chain fetish?

Andhaira...when did you graduate from 'inane questions-guy' to 'web-stalker'?

OH GAWD!1!

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*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*
*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*

 

[zerotol]

looks like Kristen Bell but with a lot bigger tits.

Very nice!!

 

[Andhaira]

Yeah the second picture is really good. Like the pony tails. Also like the picture behind her, depicting some fantasy landscape (I think) or concept art or something.

Buuuut...anyway back to the topic. Who here has a ton of money and absolute faith in my management skills?Please don't be shy and speak up!

 

[buccaroobonzai]

Another option if you do not want to mod or something similar,is to ask Vault Dweller, Elohim, Iron tower's scripter, Scott(Cyclopean),and Naked Ninja (SoW) for advice.

You might be able to pool together enough money (if needed) from users on here to buy a version of the Torque engine + modifications they are using for AOD and Cyclopean. You would get a game that is turn based, and has NWN quality graphics. You would save years of development time by doing this.

Also if you set up a fund for users here and on RPG watch, you might get enough funds to pay for some programmers, artists, and scripters to work part time on the project, with commissions on game sales when its finished.

 

[mvBarracuda]

I have toyed around with an "open source" development model where you have public forums people post and discuss ideas in and let everyone else sift out the good from the bad (kind of like UrbanDead's suggestions page wiki). Then leave the forum open and "see what happens". If people join and want to fiddle with something or code something it's up to them. They do it, upload it to the server. Key is no obligation and no membership process. Just people throwing ideas around with some deciding to do something every once in a while. It'd be messy as hell and ultimately guaranteed to fail but it'd be an interesting process at least.

Hmm that's basically what we're currently trying with PARPG. It's not really design by random contribution but everyone is encouraged to give feedback. Furthermore forums, wiki and the Subversion repository are public as well.

Anyway, here's the link:
http://parpg.fifengine.de/wordpress/

EDIT: not sure how well it will work out but I don't see such kind of project failing due failure of the underlying concept of open development.

For myself I was only thinking of getting funding and then working in a management capacity. Also working on a storyline and plot and dialogue (i.e. writing)

Do you have any prior experience in project management or writing? Any work examples that you could provide?

So working on a mod wont really help me since i donn't have nor am I looking to get programming skils.

You could work in both fields in a modding project as well. Might be a great way to gain some experience in these fields.

 

[hicksman]

I've wanted to make my game for a while, and i USED to be an uber programmer, but i've forgotten most of it.

Still, i think i'm on the right track. I've designed my game to a fairly high level of detail. Plot, mechanics, gameplay, interface, layout, backend, etc etc. I've begun writing dialogs, menus, expanding on plot recently.

In my opinion, if you don't have a story to tell, you're going to make another Oblivion. Your first step shouldnt be to license an engine, hire people, put up a website, etc.

 

[Imbecile]

*weeps*

 

[Relayer71]

Andhaira, are you perhaps an accomplished writer?

Well, actually if by accomplished writer you mean someone who has written extensively and with a point, and has gooten priase for it then yes.

Guess English isn't the language you write in then?

 

[Relayer71]

Um, Annie's quite the hottie.

 

[Qwinn]

For the record, I am an experienced game programmer (currently working on Broken Hourglass) and I'd be interested in coding/scripting if such a project -really- ever got off the ground.

I'd be willing to work for (comparative) peanuts if I can work from home, too, though really, $1000/month doesn't qualify as peanuts. Something like $25-30k a year would get a crapload of work out of me though.

Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

Oh, by the way, Annie is both superbly hot and entirely correct. Listen to teh Annie.

Qwinn

 

[Annie Mitsoda]

If you got something, I'll volunteer my writing as best as I'm able (and/or editing, if preferred). The idea of working on an indie project has always appealed to me, but I just wanna make sure your direction is something you're sure of. :twisted:

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Internet Projects: 20 writers for every programmer.

 

[poocolator]

Hay guise. It's already been done:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
Sorry.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I'm really creeped out by what was an obvious trolling attempt turning into yet another failed Internet project. Andhaira really is the prince of yanking your guys' chains -- Volourn might as well retire to his secret Edmonton lair.