Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Games overfocused on simulation (VO, cutscenes) have weakened gameplay

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
647
If I can skip the spoken dialog line by line, and there's subtitles, I can just read the subtitles and skip ahead once I've read it. I play New Vegas, Skyrim, Elden Ring etc that way. Fuck waiting for voice actors to finish their lines I don't have time for that.
This becomes especially aggravating when trying to quickly buy something from say a Skyrim trader, and you have to listen to the same verbose greetings every single time. Or maybe you've missed an important detail in a dialog, and must listen to the entire voice acting piece again.

With written text you can choose your own pacing: read (and re-read) important dialog carefully, or quickly skim through unimportant/uninteresting parts. You're also saved from having to listen to potentially annoying voices, or having to watch the associated facial animations as the NPCs articulate their lines in your face.

Imagine that being able to read was considered prestigious at one time in human history, but is "low budget" in today's game development.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,268
Gaming has had a penis envy problem with cinema for the longest time because cinema, while being conceived as brain rotting entertainment for dirty peasants, is not seen as "art". People like to force a meme of "games as art", but games have never been art and will never be. This is why some people think that investing more resources in superficial things like VO and cutscenes gives them a more "arty" feel.

That has decreased in recent times due to gaming being more profitable than Hollywood, but it's there still.

Back in the 80s, games like Kings Quest were praised because of their "cinematic" approach, so it's not a recent thing either.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,268
But what makes games stand on their own as something different from anything out there? What's specific for gaming that can't be replicated anywhere else?
 

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
647
Gaming has had a penis envy problem with cinema for the longest time because cinema, while being conceived as brain rotting entertainment for dirty peasants, is not seen as "art".
I assume you meant "is now seen as 'art'"?

That has decreased in recent times due to gaming being more profitable than Hollywood, but it's there still.
The increased profit is exactly what makes some people take games seriously "as an art form" all of a sudden...
 
Last edited:

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
647

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
4,005
Location
Nedderlent
But what makes games stand on their own as something different from anything out there? What's specific for gaming that can't be replicated anywhere else?

Gameplay
Agency.
Naw, a viewer for example has agency, the way in which he partakes.
But that's a technical thing, not art (difference between craft and art)
No, games are a perfect example of the gesamtkunstwerk, where everything involved becomes one as a piece of art. You can obviously deconstruct it but at that point you are no longer looking at the piece as is.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,551
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Gaming has had a penis envy problem with cinema for the longest time because cinema, while being conceived as brain rotting entertainment for dirty peasants, is not seen as "art". People like to force a meme of "games as art", but games have never been art and will never be. This is why some people think that investing more resources in superficial things like VO and cutscenes gives them a more "arty" feel.

That has decreased in recent times due to gaming being more profitable than Hollywood, but it's there still.

Back in the 80s, games like Kings Quest were praised because of their "cinematic" approach, so it's not a recent thing either.

Games can very definitely be art - from the engagement-with-systems point of view, the engagement-with-story point of view, or the immersion point of view.

I agree though, that it has often been viewed superficially in the past (e.g. the FMV craze); but the real art thing is where you have all three of the above coalescing in moments of peak experience - where your mind is kind of "at one" with the systems (you know the gamey-game aspects fairly deeply and precisely, they're ingrained as it were, just like real-world rules are irl), where your muscle memory is making your control of your avatar(s) in the game "transparent," where you're engaged with the story and care about the characters, and where you have a sense of immersion in the virtual world so deep that it amounts to "presence" (the sense of "being there" in that virtual space).

Then it's art, a new form of art, an extension of, and a new version of, the same kind of suspension of disbelief you get in books, theater and cinema, etc.

Isn't that why we're all here, because we remember having those moments while playing these stupid things? Isn't that what we're all hoping for and chasing with new games, moments like that?
 

Darkwind

Liturgist
Patron
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
513
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
but games have never been art and will never be.

This is such a fucking midwit brainlet take I don't even know where to start. You can put a crucifix in a jar of piss and call it art or throw a bunch of paint at a canvas like a retarded kid with Parkinson's disease (Jackson Pollock) and call it "high art" but you cannot make a game that is meant to tell an engaging story or simply give you a visceral thrill ride like Doom which was absolutely revolutionary at its time and it be art? Just stop...
 
Last edited:

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
Ever notice this? Let's take Cyberpunk for example or Witcher 3

- high production value
- fancy tech bla bla
- pervasive VO (everything voice acted)
- lots of cutscenes or cinematics

Always end up having,

- low replay value
- more or less linear game
- shallow mechanics
- gameplay generally inferior or not as good

This style started around 2007 with stuff like Mass Effect and Witcher and I absolutely hate it
Dunno if its been said already:

But the purpose of overloading the game with all that stuff does indeed reduce the replay value and that's an *intended* effect. Know why? Because replay value does not make money.

You right, good point. One short rollercoaster and rinse, repeat. Capitalism I guess.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
Games are art but only if they focus on their own medium's strengths rather than trying to imitate something else.

I mean of course games are art, they fucking contain art. Portraits, models, music, stories... How can they not be art? Even if the art is trash like in Redaxium, it is still art, just poor art.
 
Last edited:

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
I think it’s the pursuit of a certain type of “immersion” more so than simulation, given that cinematics is not really simulation.
Is simulation the best term here? When I think simulation I think (emergent) gameplay.

I think calling it "dramatics" is more appropriate and yes, there's an overemphasis on this stuff to the detriment of gameplay.
Simulation???

More like canned, scripted, hollow, and artifiical.
As someone else said, it's not simulation that's being chased, but immersion.

Let me address why I think that each of these alternative terms is a poor choice.

Immersion - I would avoid this term because it is quite relative. For example, you can be immersed while playing Alpha Centauri or Caesar III. I know, I have felt it. So it is not true that you require strictly first-person perspective to be more immersed.
emergent - emergent gameplay is something else. Random events and world events, stuff like that.
dramatics - well prose is part of the "dramatics" too. So this is not a good term to use.
scripted - yes, you could say is scripted. But everything in the game is scripted.

I do think simulation is the best term because these games are trying to simulate reality as closely as possible.

This is the opposite from old games such as Wizardry which had an abstracted UI and stuff. Or reading combat logs without seeing the combat in Wasteland.

It is my theory therefore that CRPGs should be more focused on abstraction than simulation.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
Video games are less cinematics-focused now than they were at the height of the Xbox 360/PS3 era. In particular, the commercial triumph of Skyrim over Mass Effect was a victory for gameplay over cinematics in RPGs. Many Codexers are uncomfortable with this fact.

Codexers *should* be uncomfortable, because a victory for either of these (Skyrim and Mass Effect) is shameful. Skyrim is a barely working game with shallow action gameplay. ME is like a watered down SWKotOR that got worse every time.

Also I disagree that video games are less cinematic now.
 
Last edited:

StrongBelwas

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Aug 1, 2015
Messages
510
Codexers *should* be uncomfortable, because a victory for either of these (Skyrim and Mass Effect) is shameful. Skyrim is a barely working game with shallow action gameplay. ME is like a watered down SWKotOR that got worse every time.

Also I disagree that video games are less cinematic now.
Mainstream does as mainstream will, do you complain about Marvel movies topping at the box office or the best selling books being trashy romance novels? Not much point in worrying oneself over it.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
12,014
Games are art but only if they focus on their own medium's strengths rather than trying to imitate something else.

I mean of course games are art, they fucking contain art. Portraits, models, music, stories... How can they not be art? Even if the art is trash like in Redaxium, it is still art, just poor art.
There can be a differentiation between video games containing conventional artwork, in the sense of pictures or music within the game, versus video games being art in some sense that can't exist in other media.


Types of artwork from other media that can be found within videogames, with some notable examples:
  • Painting/Drawing (2D): Defender of the Crown (1986, Amiga), Muramasa (2009, Wii), Dragon’s Crown (2013, PS3), Apotheon (2015, PC)
  • Sculpture/Architecture (3D): Myst (1993, PC), Okami (2006, PS2), Dark Souls (2011, PS3)
  • Music: Faery Tale Adventure (1986, Amiga), Final Fantasy series (1987-2001), Gabriel Knight II: The Beast Within (1995, PC), Shadow of the Colossus (2005, PS2)
  • Literature/Theatre: Planescape: Torment (1999, PC)
  • Cinema/Television: Far too many, The Walking Dead: Season 1 (2012, PC)

Possible ways in which the videogame medium uniquely can be art:
  • Setting/World-Building
  • Level Design
  • Game Mechanics
  • Atmospheric: Another World (1991, Amiga), Ico (2001, PS2), Shadow of the Colossus (2005, PS2), Demon’s Souls (2009, PS3)
  • Gesamtkunstwerk composite not possible elsewhere
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
Types of artwork from other media that can be found within videogames, with some notable examples:
  • Painting/Drawing (2D): Defender of the Crown (1986, Amiga), Muramasa (2009, Wii), Dragon’s Crown (2013, PS3), Apotheon (2015, PC)
  • Sculpture/Architecture (3D): Myst (1993, PC), Okami (2006, PS2), Dark Souls (2011, PS3)
  • Music: Faery Tale Adventure (1986, Amiga), Final Fantasy series (1987-2001), Gabriel Knight II: The Beast Within (1995, PC), Shadow of the Colossus (2005, PS2)
  • Literature/Theatre: Planescape: Torment (1999, PC)
  • Cinema/Television: Far too many, The Walking Dead: Season 1 (2012, PC)

You started to post random lists. Every game in the world has some sort of 2D art. Every game has music. Every game has meshes/models which you SCULPT in ZBrush or Maya. Every game has a color palette.
 

luj1

You're all shills
Vatnik
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
13,634
Location
Eastern block
Possible ways in which the videogame medium uniquely can be art:

Setting/World-Building

Obviously but that is not unique. Books already have this. Comics have this. Card games and board games already have this.

Level Design

Yes

Game Mechanics

Yes

Atmospheric: Another World (1991, Amiga), Ico (2001, PS2), Shadow of the Colossus (2005, PS2), Demon’s Souls (2009, PS3)

Indeed but every game has an atmosphere. From Tiberian Sun to Half Life. The atmosphere being a sum of its audiovisual stimuli.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,551
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
It is my theory therefore that CRPGs should be more focused on abstraction than simulation.

The reason I don't go with that and go with immersion instead, is because simulation can be abstracted too, it just depends on the "grain" of the simulation. Like, for example, you can simulate ground conditions (muddy, dry, etc.) on each tile on a surface in a tactical game, but that's still an abstraction. I think also, by "immersion" people usually mean something related to, but different from engagement in the flow of gameplay, or the "flow state" itself, but I agree that you can "feel like Julius Caesar" or whatever, and have a sense of real kingdoms and armies in your mind, while playing a strategy game too.

Immersion is, simply, close to suspension of disbelief in lierature and entertainment media in general, or in a more philosophical sense, it's entertaining a counterfactual; and the quickest way of doing that for normies is presenting a cinematic experience, because it's closest to what they already know. However, experienced gamers, who can get it from more abstracted gameplay experiences, can also get it from cinematic experiences - that's why it's the lowest common denominator, we can all get it that same way.

I think where I agree with you is that abstracted gameplay is often quicker and smoother in many ways, more "gamey." I guess it's getting the right mix - some aspects of the game, if they can be realized in more detail, then you can do it, but some aspects work better with a higher degree of abstraction (like, sometimes in a game it feels right to have like 15 different kinds of ammo, but sometimes it feels better to have just light and heavy or whatever, it's contextual and depends on many other factors).
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,551
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
  • Gesamtkunstwerk composite not possible elsewhere

I think that's the main one really - as in my post above, it's when a whole bunch of stars align, and you get a peak suspension-of-disbelief moment that's just not possible in any other medium, mainly because of the factor that you are the entity that's in the "story" of the game (even if that's just the "story" of a tactical encounter). It's a bit comparable to the turn in modern art from art-object-as-representation-of-peak-experience to art-object-as-peak-experience-in-itself. Books and cinema, great though they are, are still largely representations of a thing; with a game, you are the thing.

With most games, the different factors are sliding around all over the place, often disconnected with each other, but sometimes they do come together, even if only now and then, and when that happens it's genuine art, of a kind never seen before, of a kind that wasn't possible before certain developments in technology.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
12,014
Types of artwork from other media that can be found within videogames, with some notable examples:
You started to post random lists. Every game in the world has some sort of 2D art. Every game has music. Every game has meshes/models which you SCULPT in ZBrush or Maya. Every game has a color palette.
I suppose I'll need to bold important modifiers, or else you'll be constantly misreading my posts. Almost every game has 2D or 3D graphics, but most are dull and uninspired; I provided a few examples of games where the 2D or 3D graphics can be considered art on the strength of its aesthetic quality.

Obviously but that is not unique. Books already have this. Comics have this. Card games and board games already have this.
...
Indeed but every game has an atmosphere. From Tiberian Sun to Half Life. The atmosphere being a sum of its audiovisual stimuli.
I listed a few games under the category of 'atmospheric' because they generated an immersive atmosphere rarely found in videogames but that can arguably be considered a type of artistic expression unique to the videogame medium, impossible to recreate outside it. In a similar fashion, the aspects of a videogame can form a type of gesamtkunstwerk that cannot be found in any other media, although the medium of opera, at the very least, also has its own gesamtkunstwerk based on the elements particular to that medium which are not identical to the elements of the videogame medium. The type of setting/world-building found in videogames also combines various components that do not appear elsewhere, even if there is considerable overlap with other media. Even level design has overlap with, for example, table-top games (not even limited to RPGs), but the type found in videogames cannot be replicated elsewhere, as with various game mechanics specific to videogames. :M
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2022
Messages
14
Types of artwork from other media that can be found within videogames, with some notable examples:
  • Painting/Drawing (2D): Defender of the Crown (1986, Amiga), Muramasa (2009, Wii), Dragon’s Crown (2013, PS3), Apotheon (2015, PC)
  • Sculpture/Architecture (3D): Myst (1993, PC), Okami (2006, PS2), Dark Souls (2011, PS3)
  • Music: Faery Tale Adventure (1986, Amiga), Final Fantasy series (1987-2001), Gabriel Knight II: The Beast Within (1995, PC), Shadow of the Colossus (2005, PS2)
  • Literature/Theatre: Planescape: Torment (1999, PC)
  • Cinema/Television: Far too many, The Walking Dead: Season 1 (2012, PC)

You started to post random lists. Every game in the world has some sort of 2D art. Every game has music. Every game has meshes/models which you SCULPT in ZBrush or Maya. Every game has a color palette.
Without getting into too much pedantry, MUDs and text adventures obviously don't have some sort of 2D art.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom