games with good encounter design

[Sad He-Man]

Hello Codexers,

I come to you with a simple question. I have been playing the new shit for far too long. The inner storyfag in me remains rather satisfied, however I grow more and more displeased with, well, gameplay of most recent games. Too much fast-paced action, too little thinking, you might say.

Now to my question:
I would really really appreciate if you could point me towards some games of old with sublime encounters and creative dungeons. Something that you personally adore for its design.
Graphics don't matter, the story doesn't matter, other gameplay elements don't really matter either. I'd prefer isometric, but I'll take anything. I think that I have played all mainstream titles form 1998 onwards and all recent main indie titles.
A friend suggested starting with Betrayal at Krondor. Should I listen to him?

On a sidenote - does IWD series have good encounter and dungeon design?

 

[Jools]

Street Fighter II Turbo CE

 

[Epsilon]

Greetings sir or madam
It was with great interest I recently came across your letter in the post.
And I must say that it was not without some trepidation that I started reading it.
For it was quite an abnormal request that it contained, unlike any that I usually come across.
Having thoroughly read through your post, not once, but twice.
I can say with joy in my heart that I agree and that you must go fourth with this endeavour, though it will not be without peril. For reaching into the annals of video game history like this is not for the feint of heart.
But you must be strong in your conviction and in spirit.
May good fortune find you in the lands of Krondor.

 

[Berekän]

Knights of the Chalice is a quite recent title with a high regard here in the Codex. Great tactical D&D combat with great encounter design, specially in the first levels, later on I found a bit annoying that sometimes you had to get throught some trash mobs that spawned everywhere and that apparently are only there to waste your time, but aside from that looks like it's what you're searching for.

EDIT: I skipped that part about having played all recent indie games, but I don't know if that applies to KotC or not.

 

[Notorious]

Never liked the IWD encounters they were rather boring and too easy. (liked the games though go and figure that out) Always thought that BG 2 had the best encounters and dungeons of all of the Infinity Engine games.

Other than that I never got too excited about combat encounters in RPGs, liked the Fallout ones and the Das Schwarze Auge Triology (Realms of Arcania in English) but they are a farm fest.

 

[Johannes]

Betrayal At Krondor has a good base combat system, even a more generic enemy group can make for an interesting fight. Also it should satisfy any storyfag needs perfectly.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Dark Sun Shattered Lands.

 

[Leimrey]

I know I may sound like a broken record, but BG2 + Tactics (or Sword Coast Stratagems 2) + Ascension (requires the Throne Of Bhaal expansion) has one of the best encounter design in RPGs ever. Personally, I prefer Tactics to SCS2 as it offers more challenge and more diverse, but rule bending (i.e. cheating) enemies and encounters.

EDIT: Also, the Solaufein (sp?) and Valen mods have really fucking difficult fights in them. The Solaufein mod offers a very well built, balanced and equipped Eclipse party as an encounter. The fun thing about this fight is that these fuckers really employ team tactics and will indulge you in many a rape session. The Valen mod allows you to face a really powerful Vampire Hunter party, which, while not as challenging as the Eclipse guys, will still stretch some asses.

And don't get me started on Ascension. This is a real masterpiece from the time when Gaider was actually good.

TL;DR: Weimer and Kensai Ryu were real encounter design geniuses that should get their ass back onto the modding scene. Gaider should return to being fat and make some actually good games.

 

[Xor]

BG2 with SCS2, although if you've never played BG before you should just install the fixpack and go through it that way.

 

[Mrowak]

Betrayal At Krondor has a good base combat system, even a more generic enemy group can make for an interesting fight. Also it should satisfy any storyfag needs perfectly.

Oh God this...

The single best RPG out there with excellent combat system and awesome encounter design... not to mention great intrigue going on.

 

[mondblut]

Goldbox series.

 

[Varn]

Baldur's Gate 1 had some sweet fights against other parties of adventurers that could be quite tough, particularly that one in Baldur's Gate in the big tower... the Iron somethings... I forget the name.

The only other games that really ring a bell are the Fallouts, Diablo's, and various MMO's.

 

[coldcrow]

Realms of Arkania (Dungeons)
Odium (Encounters)

if you can stomach the silly combat system: Elvira 1

Arx Fatalis (Dungeon!!) and its predecessors Ultima Underworld 1/2

Avernum 6 (Encounters)

 

[Hobo Elf]

IWD has good dungeon design, but the encounters are rather weak in that they are mostly easy. A lot of the time you get swarmed by masses but since everything in the game is in corridors or tight areas you can easily use bottle neck tactics to hold off a few mooks while your Wizards turn the rest of the enemies in the back row into cinder with fireballs. If one of them happens to be a mage, well, interrupt them with Magic Missile and then go on with the Fireballs.

As for the dungeon design, they have always felt "just right" for me. Just as I'm about to get bored with the current dungeon, I get to the next level filled with a whole different theme. Different enemy types and a different layout. The dungeons themselves can be rather long, but the crawling doesn't get tedious because it keeps changing things to be more fresh, so you're not just going through 5 levels of the same cave filled with the same orcs.
Not to mention that IWD has the most gorgeous locations out of all the other IE games. Hell, that statement stands even now for all the recent games as well. They did some really fantastic work with the pre-rendered graphics there.

Everything about IWD screams that it should be more or less mediocre at best, however, I just find it to be the best and most fun IE game there is. It's just really fun to play.

Quick Edit: Forgot to mention that it's a great game to play online with friends.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Street Fighter II Turbo CE

However, it was too light on choices and consequences. Whether you kick or throw a fireball is not valid C&C.

 

[Gragt]

Mysteries of Westgate is pretty good on this aspect: few but well-designed encounters, and pretty much no trash. And it has a pretty good story with some C&C along the way, so it shows that it doesn't have to be everything or nothing. Shame the NWN2 interface can make some of the encounters frustratingly challenging.

 

[Lightknight]

Always thought that BG 2 had the best encounters and dungeons of all of the Infinity Engine games.

You, sir, dont even know the meaning of "good encounter design". BG2 was shit in that aspect. I had to restart the whole fucking game because some (main quest) encounters are NOT WINNABLE with certain party configs. Granted, it was my fault as well since i overwrote the save outside the dungeon, but still !

IWD2 is much more pleasant in that regard, there is always a way to win, however hard that may be.

IWD has good dungeon design

Uh...not really. Mostly because many dungeons were huge, had no shortcuts or way to auto-exit them, and you had to drag all the party members through completely empty corridors for 10 minutes. With godawful pathfinding IE engine had it pissed me off to no end.
Besides, they were still just generic "dungeons", that had no reason to exist in any imaginable reality. Good dungeon design makes SENSE, just being aesthetically pleasing is hardly enough to be considered good.

 

[Destroid]

I wouldn't put Fallout on here. I found the fallout combat encounters pretty tedious for the most part.

 

[J1M]

Blood Omen. Every new ability or item you get has a self-contained dungeon that is usually really well designed.

 

[Varn]

With godawful pathfinding IE engine had it pissed me off to no end.

I must say I found the IE engine's pathfinding to be a refreshingly challenging form of mini-game, which added a level of depth to the game not seen in many modern 3D RPG's. For instance, throwing the Boots of Speed from BG1 into the mix made things very challenging, as your mage could quickly run ahead of your party who were stuck on a rock and find himself all alone, to be quickly pummelled to death by a rabid pack of gibberlings. Trying to avoid this occurring required a great deal of effort and almost made getting from A to B more enjoyable than the main quest.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You, sir, dont even know the meaning of "good encounter design". BG2 was shit in that aspect. I had to restart the whole fucking game because some (main quest) encounters are NOT WINNABLE with certain party configs. Granted, it was my fault as well since i overwrote the save outside the dungeon, but still !

Sounds like ineptitude on your part. What encounter are you talking about and what was your party config?

 

[Leimrey]

You, sir, dont even know the meaning of "good encounter design". BG2 was shit in that aspect.

Lolwut? Reread my post and note that I'm talking about the modded version here. The Improved Twisted Rune, Improved Irenicus and the Ascension final battle in ToB are one of the most epic (difficulty wise) fights in RPGs ever. If you didn't breeze through vanilla with your eyes closed, you shouldn't even consider playing the modded version though.

EDIT:

Sounds like ineptitude on your part. What encounter are you talking about and what was your party config?

I think he's talking about the Illithid city. There's nothing game-halting in there, atleast in the vanilla version where you can abuse the Rest function. FFS, some people managed to solo the Improved Illithid component with a fucking Bard (which is a garbage class, fyi) and a No Resting In The Illithid City component installed.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

OK, this might be difficult if you never bothered stocking up on important resources. I don't see how even a single pure fighter should have much problems if properly prepared. Chaotic Commands/Potion of Clarity or even better: Greenstone Amulett , Potion of Spell Resistance, Potions of Concentration and/or Genius to counter INT-drain and Improved Haste. I mean which party doesn't have a mage? Add Improved Invis and the fighter should be able to kill them all quickly. Additionally you'll find this salt-water potions (in the breeding room?) which protect from Mindflayer abilities entirely.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

You, sir, dont even know the meaning of "good encounter design". BG2 was shit in that aspect. I had to restart the whole fucking game because some (main quest) encounters are NOT WINNABLE with certain party configs. Granted, it was my fault as well since i overwrote the save outside the dungeon, but still !

Uh...the only way I can see this being true is if your idea of "certain party configs" means trying to solo as a Swashbuckler or some shit (even then, in Vanilla you should still probably be able to win). Sounds like you just fail at games.

 

[Abelon Blanchetourbe]

KoTC, Krondor, Dark Sun