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Ash

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And not if you figure in the terrible stuff was typically not intended to be terrible. Today's shit often is via ultra-commercialised design and anti-consumerist practices. Furthermore, the terrible stuff was called out as such/ignored and ultimately didn't sell well (some exceptions apply). These days there's fuck all standards.
 

Siobhan

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These discussions are so pointless. Were old games better? Depends on what makes one game better than another. There's trivially certain criteria by which old games beat new ones, e.g. "runs on DOS", so that can't be the issue. A more interesting version: Were old games better by the standards modern games hold themselves to? E.g. accessibility, instant gratification, player empowerment and cinematic experience? Mostly no. So if you consider those important, old games suck. If you value gameplay, they don't. Nostalgia has nothing to do with any of this except that your formative years of gaming have a strong influence on what criteria you'll use to evaluate the quality of games. As mainstream tastes change in sync with generational shifts, everybody is ultimately relegated to the sidelines. If you're lucky a small part of the market will still cater to your niche. Either way you should stop paying attention to the mainstream, it's just gonna piss you off.
 

Ash

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Sooo, if you value video games as they are meant to be by definition, and not as barely interactive movies. We really need greater distinction between the two. The difference can be exemplified with board games and adventure story books. They're very different things. Similar format. They're both interactive. Yet very different experiences. The main difference is level of interactivity, as well as game rules and challenge being pretty much non-existent in the adventure books.

Adventure books aren't classified as games, go figure.

And yes, this doesn't apply to the video games that are somewhat interactive and featuring rules and the like, such as, say, Assassins Creed. But those should just be called shit games.

Edit: regarding adventure books, I'm talking about the simple common form of adventure book, for the record. Those simple binary choose-your-own-path type ones. Not Steve Jackson RPG-like ones that involve dice and all the rest. Those maybe do qualify.
 
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Deleted member 7219

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Systems wise, shooters and adventures reached a particular period of incline in the late 90s, with Tex Murphy being an example of great adventure games, and Jedi Knight being a great FPS. Modern games in those genres are total shit in comparison.

RPGs are a mixed bag now. With regards to presentation and storytelling, they've never been better. Systems wise, I can understand why some people feel the 90s RPGs had it right. But I'll never, ever be convinced that RPGs in the 90s did a better job at C&C, reactivity and presentation than games like The Witcher 3 and Fallout New Vegas.
 

TheHeroOfTime

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Nope. There's always existed good games and shitty games in every era. Thinking otherwise it's just lie to yourselves with the classic cliche that any time past was better. Just pick any old plataform emulator full with games and start to purge. The percentage or games actually good in quality and design is extremely low.

Same happens today, thing is that happens with the handicap that bigger companies tends to follow shitty design trends in a try of guarantee the commercial success of its games. Because games are a lot more expensive to produce, and only some studios can take risks with their games. Like Nintendo, which can produce games yolo style (Like Bayonetta 2 and 3) thanks to their incredibly high arks, or companies like From software. Who had barely any reputation and succeded with a game that nobody gave a shit back in the day (Demon's souls).
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
The irony is that if you coined a word for dumbfucks that like some piece of shit just because it's new and don't realise it's inferior to / recycles older crap, you'd be much more likely to be correct.

The word you're looking for is "normies"
 

Ash

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Overall/generally speaking, old is gold and modern is not even silver, but bronze. Retards that think otherwise clearly either don't know '90s/early 00s catalogues of each platform well, or don't give half a shit about gameplay and therefore are invested in the wrong medium. smh.

Get off my lawn you charlatans.
 

circ

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In Jagged Alliance 2 you can hit a target across the map (and it's a pretty big map) with a rifle if you have a spotter on the target and an unobstructed path. I haven't seen a single tactical rpg or tactical anything recreate that kind of scale. Instead you get popamole matches in an area the size of someone's freezer. All made in Unity of course.
 

DeepOcean

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Nov 8, 2012
Messages
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Nostalgia is such a crappy term that idiots use to pretend they have an argument, what you mean by nostalgia?

You discuss nothing. You say nothing of relevant, AAA graphix whores use this term all the time because... shock!... old games aren't as pretty as the AAA crap so only idiots with rose tinted glasses must like them, right? Game journos use this term to pretend they actually played and understand old games so they don't need to actually work and actually play those games so they can talk about shit they don't understand and pretend they have a productive job using "muh nostalgia" as cover. Average typical gamer moron, the kind of idiot that buys lootboxes, use muh nostalgia to pretend he isn't a fool and isn't being taken advantage of by lazy companies doing lazy cash grabs so he likes to pretend the decline never happened and "muh nostalgia" is perfect for that.

All hypocrites, the kind of mediocrity loving trash that would fit right on any dictatorship as good exemplar citizens . Does this means that old games don't have flaws? Yes, they do, but I would take shitty Ui and bugs all day of the week than some dumpster fire like Mass Effect Andromeda or Battlefront 2. I played games like Kings Quest 6, a game that has a big flaw on it, if you go to a labyrinth without the right items, you can't turn back with the game being unfinishable if you don't have a previous save but I think it is a much bigger flaw to have "adventure" games with gameplay less complex and challenging than Simon Says, I loved that fucking imperfect unpolished game but Tell Tale's interchangeable garbage don't deserve to be called adventure games.

It is unbelievable, being called a rose tinted glass wearing idiot by human trash, the same kind of trash that when Mass Deffect Andromeda came out said that the game was decent and just suffered from unfortunate animation glitches. When I look to Destiny 2 gameplay videos and I see guys endlessly one shoting the same slow moving brain dead trash mobs, 10 mins of shooting a massive bullet sponge "boss" enemy that is harmed by bullests as a giant would be harmed by needles then when finaly some challenge appears... BINGO!... you press a button and something awesome has to happen and the challenge dies as soon as it appeared. Really, should I take seriously people that think this kind of crap is polished ultra advanced gameplay?
 

fantadomat

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They WERE not,they ARE better than modern shit! Very few modern games are decent/good but non of them have the charm and logic of the old games.
 

Ash

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Messages
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The worst of the newest games are definitely EASIER TO PLAY than the worst of the older games. I can jump into something like Arcania, and it's shit, or Shadows or Mordor, and it's meaningless, but they are so easy to play and pay attention to, that playing them is almost pleasurable. It's like eating potato chips, and I feel like shit after, but it's easy. You don't have to think, don't have to worry about what button does what.

toddler-whac-a-mole.gif


This dressed up with special effects and a story is what you do for hours upon hours with little variation, and is what you find "pleasurable".
Sure the gameplay doesn't literally equate to whack-a-mole's level of depth and engagement, but it's not far off in your typical modern AAA.
At least you admit to liking shit though, unlike many others that are in denial.
 

Beastro

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May 11, 2015
Messages
8,113
“Games were great back in my day, all the new ones are bad”

Simplistic twisting of that line. No one is saying all new games are bad, just that there are many things put into them, and left out, that compromise the games and in the end make them less of what they could be.

Most boil down to removing challenge and being built not as games but as wannabe movies by those unable to get into the film industry.

While nostalgia is a real thing, 99% of times when some dumbfuck says "X sucks it's just nostalgia" it's retarded because they're making an unfalsifiable, circular argument that pretends to know exactly what you like and why. You like it, it must be nostalgia cos it's crap, why's it crap, because it's old, then why do i like it, you have nostalgia.

Thinking about it, I think pointing to nostalgia can only be done through an admission, not an acusation.

Family watched Armageddon a few weeks ago and I took pot shots at it while doing other things. Now I never liked that show and knew watching it as a kid it wasn't a good film but not seeing it since it was in theaters I didn't realized just how bad it was, how much of a proto-Bay Transformers movie it was when he was still finding his footing, where all the things were in place but they didn't quite fit enough to make a terrible Bay movie as we now know but one that managed to be even worse in ways.
 
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Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
What the fuck even are modern standards? Unless you are retard, having to read a manual and learning otherwise uncommon controls is not a particular hurdle to enjoy older games. This insistence that game design is somehow constantly progressing towards being better and that there are correct game design choices is what has led to your average shitty AAA game to begin with.

'Modern standards' are the things a modern-day player expects from a game. Players that balk at the prospect of having to read a piece of paper, or use controls that cannot be altered in any way, do so mostly because they've not had to do so before. This is due to how the times have changed, but along the way a certain set of 'standards' have emerged regarding games and how they should be made, and if you're used to those standards, your enjoyment of games that don't conform to them may suffer.

Your last sentence however, is wrong. Game design has progressed towards a better thing, but that's not what has led to shitty AAA games - that's marketing and its ever-sinking goal of appealing to the lowest common denominator... and the developers that choose to go down that path.

There have been massive strides forward in all fields relating to game design, but not all of them are equal in terms of what makes a game good. In the end it's the base idea + execution of said idea that carries the game. We'll get to that later, but first I want to explain what "modern standards" can do for a game to make it better, and how many game design choices are now the 'correct one' compared to back then, by comparing a game released 30 years ago with one released just last year.

"Head Over Heels" by Jon Ritman and Bernie Drummond is an Isometric Platformer (a sub-genre that became a thing as it allowed 8-bit platforms to create three-dimensional environments) released in 1987 where you control two dog-like creatures, the eponymous Head and Heels. These cuddly characters are actually spies that were captured while trying to overthrow the evil Emperor Blacktooth and free his subjects, and the game starts with you helping them bust out of jail. The 'gimmick' of HoH over other games of its ilk is that Head and Heels are a team that works best together... but the game starts with them seperated, so your first goal is to unite them. Each character has their own set of abilities, but when united you gain full access to all of them. Once they're united you must choose whether you simply return to base, or try to complete the original mission by reclaiming the crowns of the five worlds under Blacktooth's rule, and thereby successfully overthrowing him. (For an 1980s game, that choice there is a phenominal amount of option left in the hands of the player.)

The above paragraph is the first example of how modern games have moved forward: The exposition is internalized in a modern game, meaning you don't have to read it in a document/manual. In fact, the rest of the manual (which explains the controls and how some of the gameplay aspects of the game work) can also be internalized within a modern-day game, and easily at that. It could be a series of graphical images, a rolling demo, an in-game tutorial, or even just something that's revealed via in-game dialogue or a 'show, don't tell'-esque exposition. In short, tons of methods that are left up to the game's author to choose from. HoH did not have that luxury; it was originally coded on the Sinclair Spectrum, a platform with only 48 kilobytes of memory. There was no room to spare for... well, anything. Whatever part of the game could be shunted onto a piece of paper that came in the game box, was put there without second thought. (Note that some aspects of HoH's gameplay were left to player experimentation. You are not told what things are safe to touch, for example, nor which platforms will crumble once touched. This is the 'trial and error' aspect of player experimentation that has to be used carefully to get it 'right', and HoH doesn't always do so. It's fair to say that the game loves to troll the player.)

'Technological limitations' is the backbone of game design as far back as the late 1990s, but it's how game designers approached it that reveals so much about the evolution of game design. <-- Keep this in mind, as it's more important to this discussion than you'd think.

Anyway, on to the modern game. "Lumo" by Triple Eh? Studios is an Isometric Platformer released in 2016 where you control a human that somehow gets sucked into a Spectrum computer and finds itself in a bizarre, magical realm from which it must escape. The aforementioned exposition (plus any further parts of the story you may come across) are all found within the game itself. Likewise the controls are kept simple enough that Lumo barely explains them, at best you're given a short cutscene that shows what certain things do, like the Light Wand. The rest is left to player experimentation. This keeps the entire gaming experience within the game itself, you don't need to read a booklet, or a 200-page spring-bound 'Survivor's Guide' to play the game (Hello, Fallout 1). That doesn't mean that a modern-day game shouldn't have a manual but it changes the reason for its existence, and is another discussion entirely.

Next up, the controls. Head Over Heels, being an isometric game intended to be played with a single-button joystick, is forced to make some tough choices. First off, it can't... it would actually need a three-button joystick to cover all of the controls, which inevitably means that some keyboard interaction is required. Fortunately the keys are customizable but within limits. Another part is the directions on the joystick. Push 'Up' and you move up to the right and not straight up... this is an isometric game, after all. You get no choice in this matter. Lumo, on the other hand, gives you three options in that regard: 'Up' being up to the right, up to the left, or just straight-up 'Up'. Lumo also offers full control customization, at least for the keyboard. Lumo also only needs two buttons beyond the directional controls: One for jumping and one to toggle the Light Wand. Lumo, like HoH, allows the player to pick up certain things, but the fact that Lumo doesn't need a seperate 'Pick Up/Drop'-key shows clear progress in UI and game design. One final note on UI and controls is comparing the menus in the two games - Lumo has standard-fare menu controls, but HoH has the player one-way-cycling through the available options. Miss the choice you were aiming for, and you have to cycle through them all again. Vital memory-saving technique in 1987, utterly pointless today... which explains why you don't see it anymore.

Head Over Heels has one difficulty setting: Nail-bitingly hard. This is a 1980s game, "Dark Souls" doesn't hold a candle to most of them in terms of difficulty. There are no saveslots or passwords here, but HoH does have a strange form of checkpoint system, but only within the current play session. More than that, HoH operates on a 'Lives' system. Each character starts with eight lives, but more can be found in-game via hard-to-reach power-ups. If either character loses all of their lives, it's Game Over. Lumo offers two difficulty settings: 'Adventure' or 'Old-School'. The former has infinite lives, autosaving and a map (which isn't as useful as you'd think). The latter has no saving, no map and a limited number of lives. As someone who has played 1980s games when they were new, I only recommend 'Old-School' difficulty to people that are either masochistic, autistic, or both. Modern-day players, however, should try it out as a teaching lesson.

Now, I could go on in comparing these two games here, but I think I've made my point by now: The primary difference between games of Then and games of Now, is the amount of options available to the developer, and how they use them. You wanted to program a game on a Spectrum, for example, you needed to know the system's limits and program the tightest code imaginable, with next to no margin for error. This cramped environment, strangely enough, gave ample room for experimentation - developers trying various things, just to see what they could squeeze into their games, and as expected not all of it came out right. But slowly and surely a few basic 'rules' did emerge, primarily among them that players, like the developers, wanted all kinds of choices in their games. In short, progress was made.

Today's developer is spoilt for choice; he can pick any perspective, any form of exposition delivery, any control scheme and literally every aspect of the gameplay, it's all up to him and he faces no barriers but himself, he is not held back by any technological limitations. With that in mind, look at the games we're getting today. The majority of them are re-hashes of older games with a few added choices, but not necessarily the right ones. Lumo for example, is not just an Isometric Platformer, it also has mini-games based on games such as "Zaxxon", "Nebulus", "Spindizzy" and even "Horace Goes Skiing", yet all made to fit within the framework of the core game. It detracts from the primary experience of the game, but an argument can be made that a little change of pace can be good. Again, that's another discussion.

We're also getting developers that are experimenting with their tools, but most of them are actually just re-inventing the wheel because they haven't studied games older than the ones they played as a kid, and therefore don't realize that It's All Been Done Already. Worse yet, the AAA games have abandoned all forms of experimentation or imagination - to the point that 'AAA-game' is becoming a game genre in and of itself!

Finally we have the players themselves. They've become accustomed to having choices in their game, that game decisions that favor the player are the norm, and finally that the game includes everything needed to play it - that last part is probably the single-biggest factor that divides 'old' games from 'new' games. When a player is used to having an auto-map in his game (for example) the reaction to its absence in another game will be negative. This is the problem with introducing modern gamers to old games (even the good ones) - it's the 'system shock' of having to play a game that is so constrained, but also so 'all over the place' ("What do you mean, I must read this paper first before playing?"). Another point is keeping the player engaged with the game - an overly repetetive game will not keep a player's interest. This was the case back then, and it's even more important today. Back then we put up with because we were starved for choice. Now we're drowning in it, so we choose not to play those games.

tl;dr - Modern games are shit first and foremost because of narrow-minded developers.
 

Fedora Master

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Art from adversity. It took skill to make a proper game back in the day. These days any old retard can whip up a game in RPGMaker or Unity or whatever and throw it on Greenlight. Like Dadaism's "Everything is art, everyone can be an artist", this has ruined games and lowered the standards across the board.
 

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