Good Turn-Based War Simulations

[Fez]

I still play MTW. The 2D and 3D scenes don't bother me. I might give STW another shot sometime.

 

[LCJr.]

grafix whore

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

Armageddon Empires.

Now if that asshole would just add multiplayer...

 

[Fez]

Speaking of MTW2: Any good mods that improve the standard game? I find it rather lacklustre compared to the games that came before it. Jarlfrank, any suggestions? You seem to be familiar with the mod scene for it.

 

[LCJr.]

I think I tried about all of them and none made the game playable for me. IMHO the game just isn't any good. In particular the AI is very bad. IIRC I made the prediction that would be the case when development started and all CA talked out was graphics.

IIRC the most popular mods were Broken Cresent, Stainless Steel and Sicilian Vespers.
The common complaint among the modders was that it was too easy to maintain an army in the field. So they go to the extreme in the opposite direction and make it so it's about impossible to afford an army in the field. Realistic or not it's simply not fun, well not for me anyway. Something with a better AI, more historical accuracy and an economy between boom and bust would have been nice. If it's out there I missed it.

 

[Korgan]

Stainless Steel is pretty good. It makes the AI rather decent, improves realism, etc.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah, Stainless Steel was good. But it doesn't remove the basic problems MTW2 has.
It adds regions, factions, units, improves the AI slightly, improves city management, rebalances units but also introduces crappy illnesses for your generals and army maintanance. Both of which are difficult to remove for a non-modder like me.

 

[Trash]

Lands to conquer is probably what you are looking for. It does quite a lot for the AI, makes battles more like in the first MTW game and adds a shitload of campaigns. Luckily it doesn't add the stupid army maintenance or the irritating "roleplaying" elements that boil down to micromanaging all of your generals every turn. It's my fav mod and has kept me playing MTW2 a lot longer then I expected.


BTW: The modder also got hired by CA because of his work on the AI. It's that good.

 

[Korgan]

Supply traits can be turned off in SS somehow. Google it.

 

[Kaiserin]

Burning pigs? Roman ninja-priests? Gladiators as regular units on the battlefields? Screaming women who scare the enemy? War-dogs? What?

The burning pigs are actually a point of debate amongst historians. Pliny the Elder made mention of their ability to frighten elephants with the smallest squeal when writing about how the Carthaginians tamed them. War dogs have been employed in warfare since prehistory, and are even still used today in certain operations...

Agreed about the Arcani though...

 

[LCJr.]

Like a lot of things CA takes something that is either historically questionable or only happened in rare cases and makes it commonplace. Judging from the GC previews Empire will have minefields and I'm sure much, much more.

I think the screaming women comes from one of the accounts of the Conquest of Britain. I seem to recall reading one that mentioned the Roman troops just standing and staring momentarily when confronted by Druids and screaming women.

 

[kris]

War dogs have been employed in warfare since prehistory, and are even still used today in certain operations...

war dogs was not employed by any of the Roman generals in any of their accounts. they did record their armies quite thougroughly too. I can't tell for other historic periods, but for the fact I never read about a battle were they used "war" dogs... ever.

 

[kris]

double post

 

[Kaiserin]

War dogs have been employed in warfare since prehistory, and are even still used today in certain operations...

war dogs was not employed by any of the Roman generals in any of their accounts. they did record their armies quite thougroughly too. I can't tell for other historic periods, but for the fact I never read about a battle were they used "war" dogs... ever.

From "A Complete History of Fighting Dogs" by Mike Homan:

"... able dogs in battle previously known to the Romans were the Molossian dogs of Epirus, which, in their native country, Greece, were specifically trained for battle by the military. ..."

And uh... well here's a quote right out of the mouth of a Roman:

Although the British dogs are distinguished neither by colour nor good anatomy, I could not find any particular faults with them. When grim work must be done, when special pluck is needed when Mars summons us to battle most extreme, then the powerful Molossus will please you less and the Athamanen dog cannot measure up to the skill of the British dog either.

~Gratius Falsius

"The Roman empire became a melting pot of dogs from all its conquests. As in ancient Egypt, Roman dogs served in a variety of roles, from companions and guard dogs to vicious fighting dogs pitted against slaves and wild animals.

The proverbial “dogs of war” were also Roman. Huge and fearsome Molossians, which resembled giant Rottweilers, were sent into battle to kill and dismember the enemy.

Mollosian, now extinct, originally came from Greece, where they were also used for fighting. Alexander the Great owned a Mollosian named Peritas who, legend has it, killed a lion and an elephant in fighting matches.

Roman citizens sometimes had Mollosian guard dogs. In Pompeii, archaeologists have found mosaics depicting Mollosians outside people’s homes with the message cave canem – “beware of the dog”."

http://www.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch/2003_1 ... 4885664246#106685384885664246

 

[crufty]

not historical, but my guilty pleasure is wh40k final liberation

not much resource mgt, campaign based, pretty challenging but mechanically simple. and turn based...overwatch is just brutal.

A shame GW never wanted to release updates. wh40k epic is a great system.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/user ... 31926.html

 

[Skankster]

http://www.muzzylane.com/ml/making_history

Try it. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[kris]

snip

I read what someone studying Roman warfare said.
I read about many a battle and never heard anything about dogs.
that is what I am saying. I am still kind of sceptic about their use.

 

[Mefi]

snip

I read what someone studying Roman warfare said.
I read about many a battle and never heard anything about dogs.
that is what I am saying. I am still kind of sceptic about their use.

Irish wolfhounds are believed to be the last remaining breed of those which were used by the Celts as war dogs (and if you believe the Roman accounts, then a 3' at the shoulders dog is a baby compared to its original breed). And if you think that the average Roman soldier was barely peaking at 5 foot tall, then you'll see why they scared shit out of them. Celtic wardogs were one of the major imports from Britain to the Roman Empire - a North African lion vs Celtic wardog was considered a fair match in the arena.

You'll find very little reference to Celtic use of war dogs in battles as the Celts didn't tend to write much The evidence for their use comes from depictions in Celtic metalwork as well as the odd reference in Roman accounts of battles against other people (eg Pliny writes of how the Teutones used their wardogs to protect their laager at the battle of Vercellae). If you want more info, this book is fairly decent: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dogs-War-Warfar ... 622&sr=8-1

edit: as for the Romans using the dogs... hmmmm, well I have my doubts that the Romans would have used them in battle themselves. At least not on any large scale (a cavalry officer with his loyal companion, sure I can see that, the Roman army breeding them - no evidence ).

Anyways, enough of that....

I need a good strategy game to play. Going to try some ACW games, although to be honest the whole time period leaves me cold.

Thinking something similar to Matrix' WitP (yeah, Admiral's Edition out soon). That kind of detail and scope, with turn-based (RTS definite no-no). SF, Napoleonic or C20th preferred.

Any suggestions?

 

[Fez]

http://www.american-bulldog.com/molossus_myth.htm

 

[LCJr.]

I wonder if that's the same Jan Libourel that used to write for the gun rags?

 

[kris]

http://www.american-bulldog.com/molossus_myth.htm

"In the AKC's Complete Dog Book, the breed history for the Mastiff states, "Caesar describes them in his account of invading Britain in 55 B.C., when they fought beside their masters against the Roman legions with such courage and power as to make a great impression." Yes, they made such a great impression that Caesar doesn't say anything at all about any dogs whatsoever in his account of his two invasions of Britain (De Bello Gallico IV 20-36, V 8-23)! "

This was one of the things I heard from that historian... Basically, most "evidence" about dogs being used in war is completely made up by dog lovers.

 

[Mefi]

Note that the author of that site is referring to mastiffs (eg bull terriers). The use of the Celtic long-legged hounds is certainly not in any doubt.

These things, accordingly, are exported from the island, as also hides, and slaves, and dogs that are by nature suited to the purposes of the chase; the Celti, however, use both these and the native dogs for the purposes of war too. The men of Britain are taller than the Celti, and not so yellow-haired, although their bodies are of looser build. The following is an indication of their size: I myself, in Rome, saw mere lads towering as much as half a foot above the tallest people in the city, although they were bandy-legged and presented no fair lines anywhere else in their figure. - Strabo, Geography, Book IV, Chapter 5, paragraph 2

That dogs of the size and greater is proven by the sacrificial offerings made of some dogs, the bones having been found and analysed. (eg Danebury Hill).

Even the very latin adjective indicates what the dogs were used for, 'pugnaces' - fighting dogs.

One can argue the toss over the mastiff, and personally I think the site is correct - mastiffs are of no use in hunting, and are nothing like the dogs depicted in Celtic art which have long slender legs and are of a similar size to deer.

One also has to remember, there certainly weren't thousands or hundreds of these dogs organised into 'dog legions' by the Celts. They were the preserve of the aristocracy, high status animals who would have fought alongside their owner. The celts used to write poems of 'threes' - and one of those for an aristocrat names the three most valued things in his life - a beautiful woman, a good horse and a loyal dog.

Unless one wishes to call every classical writer who wrote about the use of dogs a liar (and if they were lying, then surely they would have been called out for it by their contemporaries - especially over something as easily checkable as the use of dogs in war...) then one has to accept that dogs were used. To what extent and what the dogs looked like is open for debate, but the actual use of dogs is hardly contentious.

 

[Fez]

"A dog may or may not have been used" isn't the most concrete or useful of statements though if that is all you can be sure of.

 

[Mefi]

"A dog may or may not have been used" isn't the most concrete or useful of statements though if that is all you can be sure of.

Not sure what you mean Fez? Dogs were used in war in ancient times. They weren't used in organised formations for sure, which I think is the issue with the fantasy land which R:TW inhabits.

 

[Higher Game]

People's General.