I don't understand.. Pool of radiance, TOEE

[Roqua]

I always have wondered why people have made such a fuss over the AD&D goldbox games when there are clear superior examples of AD&D games such as the Dark Suns, and the Buck Rogers games blew them out of the water and no one mentions them or has even played them hardly ever.

How are they superior?

Dark Sun 1 & 2 attempted to add some depth to AD&D by adding the psionics abilities and the materials to weapons and material restrictions. Also, it didn't have a Ui that was 5 years outdated when the first game came out.

On paper I guess the DS games are better, but in practice I still prefer the GB games due to the better combat system. The DS games were more well rounded, while the GB games were more specialized. The first DS game also suffered from being too unblanced; too easy most of the game (so easy I never bothered to learn all the spells) and the end battle comes as a bit of a shock..

The Buck Rogers, using the GB games engine, did have the shit outdated UI, but it also had a ton of depth in chargen and chardev, a very interesting rock vs paper vs scissors itemization system, various rpg systems utilized often, original stories, far more indepth combat, etc.

Really? "Far more indepth combat"? BR lacked spells, but substituted some of them with items. Skills hadn't much impact in combat and there was no opportunity attack rules. I'd say the fantasy version of GB combat had an edge, and what eventually killed my will to finish the second BR game was the need to reload your "Wands of Fireballs" (Grenade Launchers) after each battle, or start the next battle with no "Fireball" if you forgot.

Since the GB games had the very rpg-lite AD&D system with the very basic chardev and combat system of AD&D any game that put a little functionality into the UI and chardev naturally is a batter game by definition, which means the Neverwinter modules for the GB games blow them all out of the water since they are based on a much more indepth chargen and dev system and have much more advanced UIs and itemization systems.

Just like the Infinity Engine games, right?

I played at the time and a couple times since, and played a couple I didn't play back then that came out recently on GOG, and I do not remember attacks of opportunity in these games. I clearly remember the most simplistic and sophomoric combat system on par with checkers, and this is when I was a little boy with a little stupid boy mind. It could be that the combat was just so simple and basic I never needed to move anyone out of grid slot with a melee character to provoke an AoO.

And as a counter to your grenade launcher example I will remind you that if you forgot to rest in the GB games you didn't have fireball. I would much rather reload a grenade launcher between battles than rest. Actually, I would rather have high sustained damage and forgo any combat prep or consumable usage through good party building, which is possible in BR and not in the GB games since your party is built after chargen for the most part with a strick linear, no choice chardev.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Roqua

So GB games are better than ToEE, D:OS, etc, since they didn't have grids?

No, I believe I said GB combat is more elegant that Dark Sun's. Dark Sun combat often turns into an overlapping glob of characters, making resolving positional repercussions difficult a lot of the time.

ToEE is excellent in the player feedback department which makes up for the lack of a grid based rules to an extent, however, you still cannot resolve the whole field at a glance, as is easily done in GB games. D:OS is very much the same. This isn't to say combat as a whole is inferior, only that this is a strength of the GB combat system. GB games are elegant in this way.

 

[daveyd]

Glad I came to the right place.

It seems that the general consensus is that there really hasnt been a good isometric, Full party creation, TB, muli-class d&d style rpg with a few minor exceptions. None of which have really hit all the check boxes though. Since TOEE?

With so many games out there how is this possible?

I think the market exists, but it's small compared to other styles and sub-genres, so few, if any, publishers would be willing to fund them... So this means either a developer needs to raise sufficient funds for such an RPG through crowdfunding (which is really, really hard if you aren't already famous); alternatively, they can work on it in their spare time and if your team doesn't give up / commit suicide / die of malnutrition from a diet primarily consisting of ramen noodles, you will be ready to release the game in about 10 years (see: Age of Decadence).

TSI games (which is made up of many SSI veterans) tried / is trying to make such a game: Seven Dragon Saga. Sadly, the Kickstarter failed to reach it's goal last year. They are still working on the game; evidently very slowly, but we can only hope it will eventually get made... somehow.

 

[Valky]

Keep on the Borderlands looks like it's nearly complete and Co8 is working on an Icewind Dale port to ToEE, so I don't see the need for new games.

 

[mondblut]

You've said two different things here. The bit about efficiency will only be be true with meta knowledge.

"meta knowledge" as in researching the fucking rules before making a party?

The cancer people who have refused to do so are the reason we don't have RPGs anymore.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

We can only dream that devs would fully articulate combat rules and mechanics. Precious few have

 

[Valky]

We can only dream that devs would fully articulate combat rules and mechanics. Precious few have

We are our own heroes. Only we can save ourselves now. Mod ToEE!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

From the looks of it KoTC2 will open up years of player campaigns to play. The biggest issues with the first were limited classes and party size. These look to be addressed already.

I will definitely be playing the IWD in ToEE mod. Hopefully the encounter design isn't as shitty as ToEE.

 

[octavius]

Since the GB games had the very rpg-lite AD&D system with the very basic chardev and combat system of AD&D any game that put a little functionality into the UI and chardev naturally is a batter game by definition, which means the Neverwinter modules for the GB games blow them all out of the water since they are based on a much more indepth chargen and dev system and have much more advanced UIs and itemization systems.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by "Neverwinter modules for the GB games"?

 

[Doktor Best]

Nobody mentioned Lords of Xulima yet?

And id also like to remention Spiderweb Games. Avernum for your adnd-like experience with an interesting lore, open world with linear plot good mechanics and full party creation

Geneforge for highly reactive factionbased plot, single char creation with summons, even more interesting gameworld and branching quest solutions.

You can buy the collections for a few dollars and they provide solid rpg-food for months to years.

Keep in mind though that they are all heavy on the trashmob side though, but if you enjoyed gold box games you shouldnt care that much.

 

[pippin]

Icewind Dale port to ToEE

 

[daveyd]

Nobody mentioned Lords of Xulima yet?

Probably because it's only top-down / isometric during exploration and shifts to FP blobber style during combat. I do think LoX has exceptionally good combat for a TB blobber, but might not really be what Chaddiek is looking for.

We can only dream that devs would fully articulate combat rules and mechanics. Precious few have

We are our own heroes. Only we can save ourselves now. Mod ToEE!

Not to shit on this idea, but problem with mods is they're so rarely finished. NWN modules have so many unfinished series. Can't really blame the creators because they're investing a lot of time and effort for no money, but it's pretty disappointing that so many promised follow-ups never materialized. Short mods are cool but they're not really substitute for a "professionally" developed full length game where the team has a financial incentive to finish them and fix bugs.

That said, I sure hope someone makes a dialogue / role-play heavy mod for ToEE.

 

[Dorateen]

Since the GB games had the very rpg-lite AD&D system with the very basic chardev and combat system of AD&D any game that put a little functionality into the UI and chardev naturally is a batter game by definition, which means the Neverwinter modules for the GB games blow them all out of the water since they are based on a much more indepth chargen and dev system and have much more advanced UIs and itemization systems.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by "Neverwinter modules for the GB games"?

I interpreted the comment to mean Gold Box games that were recreated in Neverwinter Nights. As in, a Pool of Radiance mod made in NWN using 3rd edition rules is better than the original. Go figure.

 

[Roqua]

Since the GB games had the very rpg-lite AD&D system with the very basic chardev and combat system of AD&D any game that put a little functionality into the UI and chardev naturally is a batter game by definition, which means the Neverwinter modules for the GB games blow them all out of the water since they are based on a much more indepth chargen and dev system and have much more advanced UIs and itemization systems.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by "Neverwinter modules for the GB games"?

I interpreted the comment to mean Gold Box games that were recreated in Neverwinter Nights. As in, a Pool of Radiance mod made in NWN using 3rd edition rules is better than the original. Go figure.

Yes, but the best one (I think) was the return one made for NWN 2. I think it allowed 4 party creation, or maybe 6. I can't remember.

I probably have some resentment to the original games as the graphics displayed on the box was way better than what you got in game and the out-datedness of the UI, and they were far more basic than I assumed judging from the weight of the box. I was very young back then but how much the box weighed usually was a pretty good indicator if it was a more than basic system with some depth and complexity or just a basic game. It would be hard for anyone to argue these games are anything more than basic.