I really fucking hate dungeons/caves/crypts/sewers in RPGs.

[oldmanpaco]

Cities are always the best part of RPGs. Fuck the filler. Just give me an RPG that takes place entirely within a large, fleshed out city.

The problem of course is that there is only so much variation you can have in a city. BG2 works because you have the large fleshed out city but you still head out to the dungeons then come back. DA:O biggest problem for me (out of many I know) was that the main city was so undeveloped compared to BG and Athkalta.

There are two main problems with dungeons. The first is that they are unrelated to the rest of the world; when you step into a dungeon, you leave a rich, well-crafted world with interesting things constantly happening for a series of tunnels with nothing in them. Dungeons are microcosms that exist separately from the events of the rest of the game, and that's bad. Did the Black Mountain Clan suck because of those golems that were impossible to kill, or because Arcanum was a game about dialogue and exploration, two things that the BMC abandoned completely. Probably a mix of both of those reasons. Except for whatever item you're in a dungeon to retrieve, it bears no relation to the outside game world, regardless of what a dozen pages of lore will tell you.

I guess that depends on the situation. I remember the bee caves and spider caves in U6. They had nothing really to do with the game but they were fun diversions that you stumble upon. The hordes of monsters you tend to find in dungeons are generally not logical though. If you have an army of goblins, orcs, and ogres in a cave why the hell are they not out in the countryside raping and pillaging?

 

[ArcturusXIV]

There are two main problems with dungeons. The first is that they are unrelated to the rest of the world; when you step into a dungeon, you leave a rich, well-crafted world with interesting things constantly happening for a series of tunnels with nothing in them. Dungeons are microcosms that exist separately from the events of the rest of the game, and that's bad. Did the Black Mountain Clan suck because of those golems that were impossible to kill, or because Arcanum was a game about dialogue and exploration, two things that the BMC abandoned completely. Probably a mix of both of those reasons. Except for whatever item you're in a dungeon to retrieve, it bears no relation to the outside game world, regardless of what a dozen pages of lore will tell you.

The second problem with dungeons is that they are mostly uninteresting. Nothing happens in dungeons except that you kill enemies. Depending on the mechanics of the game you're playing, this can be fun but I'm going to use Arcanum as an example again. Arcanum did not have a good combat system, but even if it did, its strengths were its dialogue and world. The dungeons were bare; nothing happened in them, there was nothing to see or explore. You went from room to room searching for whatever item would allow you to leave, and that is also bad.

You are so, so wrong, Sir. Dungeons carve a unique semblance of atmosphere for games that allow creativity and variation within design. Sound, ambience, becomes far more important than restless city traffic--the drip, drip, drip of water, noises that signal enemies, light, shadows, dynamics.

Check out the Thief games, Dear Esther (HL2 Mod), or Lustmord's Heresy album for an example..

Suddenly, subtlely is a clue. You can isolate yourself from the real world to experience a unique situation. Several games thrive on these entirely, and as I pointed out, several things besides combat happen in these areas, such as exploration, optional puzzles, lore... You discover artifacts of the ancient past, mysterious unravelings, clues, and eventually, yourself if you're careful enough. Not to wax philosophical, but it is the same feeling I get from being out in nature for extended periods...Alone.

 

[eric__s]

Sorry about the double post, I'm on a really bad connection.

 

[eric__s]

I guess that depends on the situation. I remember the bee caves and spider caves in U6. They had nothing really to do with the game but they were fun diversions that you stumble upon. The hordes of monsters you tend to find in dungeons are generally not logical though. If you have an army of goblins, orcs, and ogres in a cave why the hell are they not out in the countryside raping and pillaging?

I guess that depends on the situation. I remember the bee caves and spider caves in U6. They had nothing really to do with the game but they were fun diversions that you stumble upon. The hordes of monsters you tend to find in dungeons are generally not logical though. If you have an army of goblins, orcs, and ogres in a cave why the hell are they not out in the countryside raping and pillaging?

Yeah, I agree with this! Stumbling onto some cave or dungeon where you don't expect one is pretty neat. Maybe I should clarify though, I don't mean that every dungeon needs to be related to the plot, or even that every dungeon needs to be an interactive story. What I mean is that dungeons in games are completely separate from the events of the game world. Progress and story take place in the game world. Dungeons are wholly separate from that game world and stall progress. Time freezes when you go into a dungeon and separate yourself from it. Why do you go into dungeons? To do something for someone who isn't in a dungeon. Where are the events of the world taking place, where do people go? Everywhere but dungeons. That's why they're sending you.

That's why it's important for us to expand this concept of dungeon - it can't just be a place where you go to fight guys or pick up items, but a living, breathing part of the game environment. A "dungeon" doesn't need to be a castle or a cave or a sewer. It can be an area where you're exposed to increased levels of danger, but also not entirely shut out from the rest of the world. As they are now, dungeons and overworlds are essentially two separate games that are part of the same product.

But yeah, not all dungeons need to be like that. Sometimes it's fun to just go in a cave and beat up bats or whatever, but I think the concept of "dungeons" can be limiting and it's why a lot of people aren't satisfied with them.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

The whole point of a dungeon is the labyrinthine quality, like a serpent unwinding, rather than the wide-open quality of a city. Dungeons are more exciting, precisely because they require danger, but they CAN have merchants, vendors, NPC's, and interesting interactions (see Arx Fatalis). You are required to traverse a path to get from point-A to point-B, rather than setting foot anywhere and speedrunning, thus, the limiting quality exists in their favor.

Concept not exciting? Look at the futuristic cities of Deus Ex. In some ways, they can be considered dungeons... So can the corridors of a cyberpunk RPG. In some ways, dungeons just ADD the quality of danger, rather than subtracting the qualities of the external world--suddenly, intensity is lost if you give a player too much freedom to, well, be free--danger is lost. Precisely, the adventure is lost.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

And just to add, cities are boring. Unless they exist, also, in a system of lore, which gives them their cultural & artistic feel, as well as a sense of having "age" and "history."

Ruins, precisely because they can have existed for ANY period of time. You are still discovering...

Everything is known in a city. In the dark, you know little beyond the perimeter of your own sight..

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Haven't played Drakensang but NWN2 has really shitty dungeons, no wonder you hate them. Endless coridors with cookie cutter mobs that you can dispatch with a fireball or two are the bane of dungeons.

Y'know, the only dungeon in NWN2 that I felt was way too fucking long was the Orc Caves, but even they aren't a patch on Dragon Age's efforts. At least in NWN2 I had a wide enough spell library to come up with neat combos to bury enemies in an avalanche of overkill.


Dragon Age doesn't have near the variety in spells, and its worst filler centers go on for much longer.

 

[Multidirectional]

Yes, Risen did it quite nicely. Had some damn hard fights in there too. Although that might just have been because of the absolutely shitty combat system.

I don't get it, what's shitty aboout it? Perhaps you are talking only about magic, which was unremarkable (not shitty), but melee combat in Risen was pretty great in my opinion. Best I've seen in action RPG actually.

 

[Kawaii Theurgist]

ITT: LARPer storyfags. LARPer storyfags never change.

Dungeons are the stuff good role playing games are made of, and anyone who believes a dungeon is nothing but copypasted corridors and repetitive encounters should actually go and start playing real dungeon crawlers instead of the hack & slash shit they have been taking for dungeon crawlers.

Also, cities are the best part of role playing games? Fuck yeah, man. And there is one just outside your door. Endless adventure awaits you!

 

[Elzair]

I do not remember the BMC being that terrible. Even though I do not like Arcanum very much, I did like the Ancient Library dungeon and that castle on the outskirts of that town with the Lord of the Damned. Those two bastions of wonder & danger on the outskirts of civilization reflected Arcanum's central theme of a magical world being destroyed by the March of Progress.

Honestly, until you have played Arena & Daggerfall, you do not know what long, tedious dungeons are.

 

[garren]

I like crypts. Sewers too to a lesser extent (though VTMB sewers were HORRIBLE). Caves are meh though, damn those endless boring sepia/gray walls.

 

[Sceptic]

Dungeons are the stuff good role playing games are made of, and anyone who believes a dungeon is nothing but copypasted corridors and repetitive encounters should actually go and start playing real dungeon crawlers instead of the hack & slash shit they have been taking for dungeon crawlers.

'sup Black Cat.

Also, this. Though I would note that good hack & slash games tend to also have good dungeons. Shitty games, whether hack and slash or dungeon crawler or anything, are highly likely to have shitty dungeons.

And anyone who thinks dungeons are boring has obviously never made it to the Mantellan Crux in Daggerfall.

Also, cities are the best part of role playing games? Fuck yeah, man. And there is one just outside your door. Endless adventure awaits you!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The only dungeon that I have liked so far was the Glow.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Temple of Elemental Evil is a pretty good example of a very long well-made dungeon.

I think much of the problem is that video game developers don't really incorporate challenges beyond the combat. The environment itself should be an obstacle, and figuring out how to navigate the dungeon should be as important as killing what's in it. You saw a lot more 'maze-like' design in earlier games, but it's usually just a set of encounters these days.

 

[Excidium]

ITT: LARPer storyfags. LARPer storyfags never change.

Dungeons are the stuff good role playing games are made of

Somebody is still living in the 80's.

 

[Raghar]

The dungeons in Arcanum are so fucking horrible that it makes waltzing through them with Invisibility a wonderful pleasure.

Note majority of them were completely optional, and you should be punished by actually going into them. Proper handling of a dungeon is the earth shatter. Then digging important stuff from collapsed dungeon is trivial.

I am playing Drakensang 1, and reached the caves under the Dwarf city. I've (mostly) enjoyed the game so far, and combat always came only in moderate doses between exploring and talking to people. But these caves are testing my nerves. Kill 5 spiders, walk five feet, kill 10 undead, walk 5 feet, kill cockroaches, walk another five feet, kill 10 more undead, walk two feet, kill fire spirit, walk 20 meters, kill goblins, walk 10 meters, kill....

Basically you are complaining about too much combat. RPG with too much unrealistic combat feels like a fighting game. Specialized fighting games tends to be better.

Cities are always the best part of RPGs. Fuck the filler. Just give me an RPG that takes place entirely within a large, fleshed out city.

What happened to forests? Some Japanese RPGs had a lot of parts of story that happened in the forest, or on a desolate mountain, or somewhere out of cities.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Fallout is a good RPG

Somebody is still living in the 90's.

 

[Radisshu]

Temple of Elemental Evil is a pretty good example of a very long well-made dungeon.

I think much of the problem is that video game developers don't really incorporate challenges beyond the combat. The environment itself should be an obstacle, and figuring out how to navigate the dungeon should be as important as killing what's in it. You saw a lot more 'maze-like' design in earlier games, but it's usually just a set of encounters these days.

Definitely, and it makes various classes and abilities usable in more ways. A mage could cast some spell so a party could cross a chasm, a rogue could scout ahead or disable traps, etc.

 

[aries202]

The old might and magic games (the rpgs, not the rts) comes to mind.

There are dungeons in Might and Magic Heroes games?

I never knew this, because I didn't play nay of them. That's why I suggested the rpg games. However, instead of raging, why not post about MM:Heroes games have interesting dungeons...

 

[Sceptic]

There are dungeons in Might and Magic Heroes games?

I never knew this, because I didn't play nay of them. That's why I suggested the rpg games. However, instead of raging, why not post about MM:Heroes games have interesting dungeons...

Look at what he bolded in your post, motherfucker.

 

[Damned Registrations]

ITT: LARPer storyfags. LARPer storyfags never change.

Dungeons are the stuff good role playing games are made of, and anyone who believes a dungeon is nothing but copypasted corridors and repetitive encounters should actually go and start playing real dungeon crawlers instead of the hack & slash shit they have been taking for dungeon crawlers.

Also, cities are the best part of role playing games? Fuck yeah, man. And there is one just outside your door. Endless adventure awaits you!

This. Most of my favourite games take place entirely or mostly in dungeons. In fact, I think I'm going to do a dungeon crawler LP after I finish up Shadowrun.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Did anyone even bother to create interesting realistic dungeons with realistic dungeon challenges?

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

Did anyone even bother to create interesting realistic dungeons with realistic dungeon challenges?

What about the Ultima Underworlds? They had a good mix of exploration, fighting and problem-solving in more of a realistic setting (more realistic than most games where it's a bunch of mobs standing around waiting to be attacked).

 

[Jasede]

You guys don't hate dungeons, you just hate badly made dungeons. Every of your favorite games had cool dungeons, like Fallout. It doesn't have to be a sewer or a castle to be a "dungeon". Heck, in Wizardry and Might & Magic a lot of overland areas and cities can be considered dungeons.

But don't say you don't like dungeons. That's like saying you don't like inventories, or stats. They are integral to the genre.

 

[JarlFrank]

Well-designed dungeons are the best thing ever and make a good game even better. Heck, pure dungeon crawlers can be awesome if well-designed.

Go play Ultima Underworld.
Go play Might and Magic: World of Xeen (some of the most awesome dungeons ever).
Go play Wizardry 8. Also 7 and maybe 6.
Go play Thief and marvel at the Bonehoard.
Go play Arx Fatalis.

Dungeons are awesome. Filler combat is bad. The fact that most filler combat is put into copypaste caves or sewers or other similarly bland-looking dungeons doesn't mean that dungeons are in and by themselves shit.