Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Mod News Icewind Dale Complete Remake Mod Released for NWN2

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
My version stated your opinion of the engine. Yours stated your opinion of anybody who disagreed with your opinion.
So you are refering to the first part of my post. I guess sometimes a certain attitude in the community here is wearing me down a bit... :oops:

The problem arises in comparison:
I agree that NWN2 was the first 3D party-RPG that could visually compete at least with the IE games (if not with ToEE) as long as you played zoomed out. But what kind of computer do you need to run BG2 "well enough" and what for NWN2. Add to that that there were far better looking 3D games that were less demanding.

Of course. What it does have going for it are enhanced visual effects. Whether one considers them an adequate justification to switch to 3D is another thing.
The much better modability is also a strong plus, at least in my opinion. This might actually be something where 3D engines have a clear advantage.
Anyway, I never said that NWN2's engine is the best thing since sliced bread or such, I merely think that it's much better than its reputation.
 

Nathair

Educated
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
55
Main reason to play it would I'd think be to try some fun 3rd Ed cheese on it. Or just to see some of the subtle differences in how it plays.

It is definetly still a very effective experience mind - I played an earlier build through up to Wyrmstooth - and astonishingly complete with it.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,155
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Looks like shit, engine is shit, why remake a perfectly fine game that's still playable and fun today if you could, I dunno, make your own fucking dungeon crawler with a NEW story, NEW areas, NEW item and encounter placements, etc.

Don't see the point in this. I'd rather replay IWD instead.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
With combat tactics dumbed down, the focus is placed squarely on the strategic, character building aspects of the game.

First, while there is no grapples/bull rushes/etc., there still are fighters with activated abilities and limited spellcasting (more than in 2) so they are not as limited as in 2 ed.
Second, if a system is broken that doesn't mean you should get rid of it altogether. If you think that multiclass is broken (btw, it was as broken in 2e games if you knew when to multiclass), just don't multiclass as hell, play with pure classes with 1 prestige class or something like that. Sorry, but the availability of feats and prestige classes (and also races having deeper impact on your build) makes 3.5e much more strategic than 2.

Except that fighters are completely superseded by battle clerics.

And that's why I've said that they still sucked in my post. Besides, it was pretty much the same in 2e, so your point is?..

PorkaMorka has raved about 3E on many occassions, and each time it is equally hilarious how he criticizes stuff in 3E that is even worse in 2E.

At least, I always get a good kick out of it. I suggest you take the same approach.
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
I totally agree that it's a waste of time with little value, but ultimately who are we to judge what other people do with their spare time? Of course we'd love the effort better spent on something unique or cool, but they obviously enjoyed the project or they wouldn't have worked on it for 3 years. At the very least it's commendable that they finished it; projects like these rarely make it anywhere. I have no personal interest at all, but judging by the comments on the site there a lot of people are shitting themselves over it. I guess 1995-era poser models in a worse engine are great to some people.

There's that BG2 -> DAO mod which has probably died, but it had a demo of Irenicus's dungeon done. Sounds extremely stupid, and even worse than this one.
 

hiver

Guest
Icewind in TOEE... saliva. This... zero interest.
Or even better BG2 in TOEE... :drool:
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
And that's why I've said that they still sucked in my post. Besides, it was pretty much the same in 2e, so your point is?..

Clerics may be more powerful than fighters in 2E, but it is more difficult for them to directly supersede fighters as melee combatants. It's probably possible in 2E, but it is definitely more difficult.

They don't get percentile strength, they don't get bonus HP for constitutions of 17 or 18 and most importantly, they don't get to freely turn their buffs spells into healing spells, meaning they have to choose between buffing and healing. In third edition they can do both.

PorkaMorka has raved about 3E on many occassions, and each time it is equally hilarious how he criticizes stuff in 3E that is even worse in 2E.

At least, I always get a good kick out of it. I suggest you take the same approach.

Caster supremacy is a bigger issue in third edition. Fighters are weaker than casters in both editions but they become redundant and superfluous in 3rd edition since clerics fight better in melee.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
Caster supremacy is a bigger issue in third edition.

Holy titfuck no 'lol' is big enough. Wizards fight much better in melee in 2E than fighters. Like, scores better. Stoneskin + Mirror Image + Some variation of Magic Weapon spell (later Tenser's transformation).

At least in 3E Grapple and Trip builds make fighter sortakindda not so horrible and stoneskin and similar spells are less broken (though still outclass the fighter obviously). 3E also has Book of Nine Swords and Pathfinder, both of which solve the problem (BoNS completely, Pathfinder to a lesser extend). 2E has fuck-all.

There is not a single reason to make a core fighter past level 10ish in either edition except in Tome of Battle or one of the gimmicky 3rd ed. builds like the lancing cavalier or similar.

EVEN if, in a hypothetical experiment, you were right that 2E suffered a bit less from the same problem the issue is for all intends and purposes a moot point. The point is that core fighter-classes suck ass in D&D. Whether they suck marginally less ass in 2E or 3E doesn't matter two fucks.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
You know, I think the screenshots look pretty good. Your mileage may vary. It looks pretty cool if you want to play IWD with 3.5 rules. Why not? They're pretty damn fun. But they're not great for not turn-based, but there's still so much fun character building and planning. It's not like easy-modo AD&D, which works much better for RTWP.

Anyone who argues for balance in a P&P system is a turd burglar. Wizards are supposed to be quadratic, fighters linear. Level 1 wizards are supposed to be shit and level 20 wizards are supposed to be godlike, whereas level 1 fighters are handy as hell and get less and less useful (but still not obsolete) as they level up.

High level wizards are just incredible at anything and IMO, that's the way it has always been and always should be. Fighters don't need to be up to par. They are mostly there to act as roadblocks so wizards can blow shit up at high levels.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Some of the screen shots look ok the interior of the ice keep/temple with the frost salamanders looked spot on, the outside... the bridge looks wonky but otherwise it's fine. I could not tell that the tower was the severed hand, but eh... shit doesn't scale I guess.

Having said that... I'll just replay the original.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
Holy titfuck no 'lol' is big enough. Wizards fight much better in melee in 2E than fighters. Like, scores better. Stoneskin + Mirror Image + Some variation of Magic Weapon spell (later Tenser's transformation).

Sure, Wizards can outclass fighters in melee in 2E, but it's rarely what you'd call an efficient use of spells (prior to Tenser's anyway). Even Tenser's is a highly limited resource. And it's just as bad or worse in 3E where your melee wizard/sorcerer can take a few mix in levels and also get full benefits from high STR and CON.

On the other hand, Third edition battle clerics are good at melee to begin with and they only need a few buff spells to surpass the fighter. And they don't have to give up much to memorize those spells, since they can always convert them to heals (for free) when needed.

There is a big difference between being able to spend a ton of resources inefficiently to surpass the fighter temporarily and being able to do the fighter's job better than the fighter for several fights in a row, while providing utility and heals as well.

3E also has Book of Nine Swords and Pathfinder, both of which solve the problem (BoNS completely, Pathfinder to a lesser extend). 2E has fuck-all.

I must admit I am unfamiliar with most of the 3rd edition splat books. And counting Pathfinder as 3e is stretching things just a bit.

EVEN if, in a hypothetical experiment, you were right that 2E suffered a bit less from the same problem the issue is for all intends and purposes a moot point. The point is that core fighter-classes suck ass in D&D. Whether they suck marginally less ass in 2E or 3E doesn't matter two fucks.

It's not really a moot point since this came up in the context of CRPGs. Caster supremacy was a constant in P&P, but it was traditionally much less of an issue in D&D CRPGs.Think back on all the party based, non blob D&D simulations released for the PC. Gold Box, Dark Sun 1+2, PoR:ROMD, KoTC, TOEE, NWN2 and all Infinity Engine games.

Warrior characters were highly effective (if not always strictly optimal) in all of the pre third edition games, with the exception of Pools of Darkness where you'd eventually want to dual class everybody due to the ridiculous amounts of EXP that were available.

But this tradition of viable warriors in D&D CRPGs eventually ended with IWD2. IWD2 allowed players to level past the point where 3rd edition balance breaks down.

In IWD2 warriors were dead weight on the most challenging modes and it was highly recommended to exclude them in favor of casters. It was highly recommended to use casters in both tank and melee damage dealing roles, due to the greater survivability and power that they offered. This epic balance fail was really unprecedented in D&D CRPGs and was in large part a product of the third edition rules.

I kind of forget what we were debating, but yeah, high level third edition = unprecedented balance fail. And since the game is real time, third edition's tactical complexity will mostly be left out anyway.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Fighters are dead weight in IWD 2 in a difficulty that doesn't reflect P&P is NOT the same as Fighters being "dead weight" in D&D 3.5 as a ruleset.

Wizards can be dispelled. Fairly easily, I might add. One of the big problems with caster tanks is their vulnerability to dispels. Not that that isn't a problem for Fighters, but if you dispel a wizard, he will go down in seconds. If you dispel a fighter he has enough armor and HP to recover/flee an encounter. If you fully dispel a wizard he is easy prey for tripping, grappling and all kinds of nasty melee shit and is basically dead.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
Fighters are dead weight in IWD 2 in a difficulty that doesn't reflect P&P is NOT the same as Fighters being "dead weight" in D&D 3.5 as a ruleset.

Just wanted to clarify this before I go away for the next 18ish hours. You are correct that the monsters in IWD2 hard modes are stronger than in P&P and that this dictates certain build considerations.

On the other hand character capabilities remain the same across all difficulty levels and do generally reflect P&P rules, although filtered through the real time with pause ruleset.

So it does tell us something about relative character capabilities when the recommended melee party has 58 combined divine caster levels, 110 combined arcane caster levels and 9 combined warrior levels.

Especially since we're discussing another real time with pause CRPG (I guess).
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Ah, it does, for that game. But not for 3.5 in general. You have to keep in mind: it's designed to be used during P&P. In IWD 2 you can rest as often as you like: thus dramatically increasing the power of casting classes, which are inherently stronger at high levels already. So that translates into them being more ideal in a game. In addition, an AI would not dispel as often or as intelligently as a human opponent would, further strengthening magical tanking.

In P&P this won't fly- wizards are extremely strong- until they are out of spells. They have to ration them extremely carefully. No dungeon master worth his salt is going to let you rest all the time. In fact, resting is quite rare and thus Fighters have an important role: work horse that deals with threats that don't warrant spells, body guards to let the wizards cast and last resort when spells have run dry. They can not be replaced in 3.5 P&P, even though they aren't as strong as a wizard with full spells.

But who do you ask when you are out of spells, or in an anti-magical zone?

Edit: If you can't tell, I'd really love to play some 3.5 online seriously.
 

xemous

Arcane
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
1,107
Location
AU
LOL why would anyone wanna make ANYTHING in the nwn2 engine. it runs terribly on my computer
 
Last edited:

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
FFS ToEE engine or fuck OFF

You realise that the ToEE engine is dead, right? No modding tools were released by the devs. Circle of Eight has struggled for years to finish their Keep on the Borderlands mod but reached only a stable demo and the mod looks to be dead. I followed the development for some time when it was still hot (ie. three years ago) and from what they wrote implementing even the simplest things required hundreds of workarounds and was just a pain in the ass. They made some community tools but they were by and far imperfect http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2864
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
What it does have going for it are enhanced visual effects. Whether one considers them an adequate justification to switch to 3D is another thing.
Actually I consider the spell effects (especially buffs) to be the worst part of the visuuals :oops:
If I were tempted to re-install NWN2 the first mod installed, even before improved companion AI, would be muted spell effects...

Monocause: Let us dream, will ya.

I always find these Fighter vs Caster discussion funny. I can't be bothered to really enter this time (and Jasede already stated most of what I'd add anyway). But I'd still like to point out a few things:
The caster-fans always ignore so much.
You know most buffs can be applied to the fighters too, right? You ignore a fighter's fighter-specific attribute distribution, equipment choice and HP. You ignore the additional attacks that go hand in hand with the better BAB. You also tend to ignore the first 6-10 levels long before the casters get spells that (if not dispelled) can put them on par with fighters. You ignore casters running out of spells and turning into dead weight. You ignore anti-magical areas. You ignore that a caster who tries to be a fighter isn't doing his job. You ignore that fighter-types do not have to worry about casting-levels and can thus multi-class pretty freely. Sure, a pure fighter might be easily disabled and not be as good a meat-shield as a caster with the right buffs. But the fighter does not require to stay a pure fighter in order to do fighter stuff.

What I took from the last discussion of this type about max level characters in NWN2 I had with VoD:
He came up with one caster build that would probably have beaten my warrior build in a direct confrontation. But that abused two broken spells. Everything else pretty much just required waiting the casters out. Given that max level casters are supposed to be stronger and I'm not really a munchkin power-gamer, that didn't seem too shabby... *shrug*
 

Semper

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
747
MCA Project: Eternity
Icewind in TOEE... saliva. This... zero interest.
Or even better BG2 in TOEE... :drool:

as good as this engine is for playing dnd tb sessions as bad it is to mod. too much stuff is hardcoded and you can't even create new animated meshes. there was a project for toee like gemrb but imo that stopped long ago. what we need is someone who grabs the source code of this project, which is available, and starts from there. then we would have a nice engine to create something decent.

btw nwn2 doesn't look like crap. it's just that the author of this mod have had to use tons of vanilla meshes to mimic iwd. without he propably would've needed 2-3 additional years.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
Gold Box, Dark Sun 1+2, PoR:ROMD, Infinity Engine games.

You want to make the most effective party in these games? You dual-class or make straight up no fighters. The only point where this is not true is low levels and those games that never came beyond them, and in these cases it's just as true that you needed a fighter or barbarian or paladin in stuff like NWN2 or ToEE.

Especially in the Infinity Engine games casters are much, much better. Do you know why? Because they have most of the spells implemented, contrary to the other games that are mostly a pretty half-assed implementation of the rules. Of course wizards won't be good melee-fighters in 2E, just as clerics won't be in 3E, if you take away the spells that make it possible.

I'm sorry, but postulating there is a major difference in caster supremacy between the two systems is completely absurd.
 

hiver

Guest
Icewind in TOEE... saliva. This... zero interest.
Or even better BG2 in TOEE... :drool:

as good as this engine is for playing dnd tb sessions as bad it is to mod. too much stuff is hardcoded and you can't even create new animated meshes. there was a project for toee like gemrb but imo that stopped long ago. what we need is someone who grabs the source code of this project, which is available, and starts from there. then we would have a nice engine to create something decent.
Yeah i know. I was just sayin`.
 

pipka

Savant
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
1,351
Location
The Penal Zone
Is there IWD-to-IWD2 conversation mod à la BG Tutu/Trilogy?

A project called Icewind Gate to port BGII into IWD2 was attempted, but never completed.
Yeah, I know about BG2-to-IWD2. Made by Westley Weimer, it's actually completed and you can even finish the game. But there are some serious bugs and engine version differences that defeated the purpose of the mod(no banters, wonky party management, etc.).

What I did ask about was IWD1-to-IWD2 conversion, since google hadn't given results. Probably NWN2 toolset is easier than the IE one. Figures.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
The IWD1 engine is more different from the IWD2 engine than the BG2 engine is from the IWD2 engine.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom