Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Improve Fallout 1/2's combat

Ryan muller

Educated
Joined
Oct 10, 2021
Messages
180
The only two things I dislike about Fallout's combat are the brain dead companions and how long it takes in big fights. I'm not sure what the best fix the second problem is, though. I don't think Fallout needs more stuff in it. Adding covers, poison, stances, etc. just makes the game more complicated, but not necessarily more fun.
Covers arent complicated, nor poison it just more tactical options which would change the flow of some encounters and make others more intriguing

The high rng and lack of some options make the combat a bit too simple, its fine, but not great
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,192
Grapple mechanics - I always thought it strange that a super mutant wouldn't just tackle those 'puny humans'. I take your point it would be unmanageable on a sprite based game, but I'd still love to see it.

Height/elevation - True, also likely unfeasible on an isometric game of that time. It would take some ingenuity to implement it, but I would love the option.

Grapple moves could easily be cheated in a Fallout 3 that kept sprites. Nothing says the move animation has to actual be the in-game sprite. Let’s say there was grapple moves, like a Super Mutant could grab someone by the leg and pancake them face first into the ground. When the move is initiated it could just cut to a little animated cutscene for a second that shows the Super Mutant doing that to one of the handful of party members it can be done to.

Different heights and elevation wouldn’t be hard. Let’s say there’s some tiny “elevation” that keeps a character from being visible while prone. You just set it so while a character is prone they can’t be seen while in that specific place in a similar kind of way you might a large rock or something. Total Annihilation did some nice looking things with different elevations of ground and that came out the same year as the first Fallout.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,992
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
The weakest part of Fallout combat design is the encounter design. Once your build comes online, there's no matter whom you are fighting, your tactic will remain the same since there is little actual difference between what enemies could do.

As an example, imagine such encounter: group of supermuties, couple of nightkins with sniper rifles who engage you from distance and five-six purely melee armed muties that try to rush you. If you go to cover to avoid sniper fire, melee ones will gang on you; if you stay in the open to mow down melees you will receive sniper fire. And so on
 

Ryan muller

Educated
Joined
Oct 10, 2021
Messages
180
The weakest part of Fallout combat design is the encounter design. Once your build comes online, there's no matter whom you are fighting, your tactic will remain the same since there is little actual difference between what enemies could do.

As an example, imagine such encounter: group of supermuties, couple of nightkins with sniper rifles who engage you from distance and five-six purely melee armed muties that try to rush you. If you go to cover to avoid sniper fire, melee ones will gang on you; if you stay in the open to mow down melees you will receive sniper fire. And so on
It wouldnt change much since the ranged ones follow you if they cant hit you on cover
First they would need to overhaul the a.i routine

One of the reasons i like the semi horde-based encounters in fo2 is that theres some interesting elements to the table such as the introduction of turrets which arent going to follow you but are brutal if you get at their range

Or even shit like Fire geckos which are dangerous at both close and mid range (specially at mid ones)

player usually have way more shit to care about knowing theres way stronger enemies to deal with while they are surrounded by 20 enemies at time
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
9,473
Location
Southeastern Yurop
The weakest part of Fallout combat design is the encounter design. Once your build comes online, there's no matter whom you are fighting, your tactic will remain the same since there is little actual difference between what enemies could do.

As an example, imagine such encounter: group of supermuties, couple of nightkins with sniper rifles who engage you from distance and five-six purely melee armed muties that try to rush you. If you go to cover to avoid sniper fire, melee ones will gang on you; if you stay in the open to mow down melees you will receive sniper fire. And so on
It wouldnt change much since the ranged ones follow you if they cant hit you on cover
First they would need to overhaul the a.i routine

One of the reasons i like the semi horde-based encounters in fo2 is that theres some interesting elements to the table such as the introduction of turrets which arent going to follow you but are brutal if you get at their range

Or even shit like Fire geckos which are dangerous at both close and mid range (specially at mid ones)

player usually have way more shit to care about knowing theres way stronger enemies to deal with while they are surrounded by 20 enemies at time
Yep.
It also illustrates the usefulness of the "Awareness" perk. It lets you know which enemy is the most dangerous out of a group.
 

blessedCoffee

c3RyYWl0amFja2V0cyBmb3IgaW50ZXJuZXQgdXNlcnM=
Patron
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
341
Location
Here
Strap Yourselves In
Make going for the enemy's eyes or head with firearms less OP.

Redesign 'concatenated-encounter' quests like the one involving the cleansing of the Regulators in the Boneyard.

Nerfing shots to the eyes (or other body parts) is a simple task, thanks to SFALL:

Open "ddraw.ini" with some capable editor, and look for this

;Uncomment these lines to modify the default modifiers for aimed shots at specific bodyparts​
;BodyHit_Head=​
...​

If you want to do the same in Fallout 1, you can get the no longer supported SFALL, probably, or just install Et Tu and use whatever version included in the package.

I made eye shots harder just changing a value, it worked perfectly.
 
Last edited:

WhiteShark

Learned
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
370
Location
滅びてゆく世界
He doesn't at all address the fact that a turn order for declarations will still be necessary unless all declarations are made blindly. What a player wants to declare may change drastically depending on what other actors in the combat declare. Once you make it blind, it becomes just as cumbersome as any normal initiative system. Also,
>citing Dungeon World as a good example of anything
lol

Tabletop criticisms aside, I did enjoy simultaneous turns in Frozen Synapse, so I think video games can do it well.
 

Laz Sundays

Educated
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
191
Fallout tactics exist, has upgraded combat. Great combat, one of the best tactical combats even. But noone making threads like this ever played it.
 

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,866,294
Location
Anytown, USA
Faster movement animations, especially for random people uninvolved in the fight

Cover system with stances a la Fallout Tactics

More guns that aren’t as expensive (being stuck with just the 10mm for the first third of the game gets kinda meh in Fallout 1 and you don’t get a decent gun till after the Den (your third settlement!) in Fallout 2’s normal progression). For all its faults, I think Fallout 4 does this well with ramshackle pipe guns that do piss poor damage but use the most common ammo and are cheap due to being homemade.

Making melee weapons useful as a side option without significant investment of skill points
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,192
Back when Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines came out, (or more specifically back when I first played the demo) I thought it’d be really cool to see all the stuff that game does in a Fallout.

There’s stuff it does that could’ve easily been folded into combat, and Fallout Tactics would do those things a couple years after Commandos. But I also really wanted a Fallout (and Arcanum for that matter) with that level of environmental interaction, with that level of stealth gameplay outside of the combat phase of gameplay. Wanted a Fallout that looked that good too. I’m actually a little surprised Van Buren was going for everything being 3D in the early 2000s (especially given how it looked) as opposed to having pre-rendered background with 3D models like Commandos, The Temple of Elemental Evil, and Resident Evil. It would’ve been really nice to have a early 2000s Fallout game that looked as good as a Commandos 2 and 3, and the GameCube Resident Evils. Then again, by 2003 I’m a little surprised their target was just the PC and not at the very least the Xbox.
 
Last edited:

Wayward Son

Fails to keep valuable team members alive
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,866,294
Location
Anytown, USA
Honestly just port Fallout 1/2 to Fallout Tactics and find a way to add the missing skills and perks in
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,192
I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft and Bethesda have someone remake the first two Fallout games sometime soon. Remakes of Fallout and Fallout 2 would be easy sales layups, and it seems like the kind of thing they could do pretty quickly and for less money than Bethesda’s current titles.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,899
A cover system - would it even benefit F1/2? After all, side-stepping behind a corner already provides a cover.
Controllable companions - is it really necessary? It's a game about loneliness and melancholy, after all.
What else you got?
Well, there is Fallout Tactics. Which I liked. Interestingly enough it played really well in real-time as far as the shootouts are concerned, because it felt really dynamic despite having multiple entities due to both sides acting all at once. You could improve that by adding the active pause (which works well for any real-time game, really) so people wouldn't feel rushed when issuing commands.

If you want to pursue turn-based approach, then I guess you could use cover but do it like Hard West 1 did it (controllable companions are a must then).
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,734
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
I'm not aware of a single game where "the right weapon for the job" adds value.
I think Lands of Lore did a hell of a job with trying to kill ghosts. Maybe it was a gimmick, but it hit like a ton of bricks when you were whizzing away at the game and progress comes to an almost complete halt.

Also, having to rest and study flame spells to beat some trolls is a good gimmick, don't knock it.
 

undecaf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,517
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Some form of cover system and stances (that the AI also uses) would be quite enough.

I actually like not being able to fully control my companions and having to live with their shenanigans. So that’s not something I would need a fix for.
 

CHEMS

Scholar
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
1,563
Fallout Tactics did everything that could be done to perfect fallout's isometric combat system. Except, maybe, fix the horrendous ammo type system and resistances.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,472
Location
Flowery Land
Having thought about this before...

Base Systems
1: Crouch and prone positions (instead ranged accuracy, lower enemy ranged accuracy, better sneak and better use of cover at the cost of higher move cost, worse melee and the AP cost of position shifts). Full control of companions in combat. Guns take accuracy penalty based on distance to enemy (handguns work fine even when adjacent, carbines work fine unless the enemy is directly adjacent, long rifles take large penalties without multiple hexes clear, and big guns need hexes all around instead of just between). Basic tactical layer things.
2: All humanoids have a base AP of 5 and gain another 3 AP per point of Agility. This frees the system of the retardation with breakpoints that come with a single digit AP count (a firing cost of 4 means a 8 AP character you can fire twice as fast as a character with 7 could but a character with 9, 10, or 11 fires exactly as fast as one with 8) and allows including minor actions with AP cost. Also allows "damage" to AP without being instant win.
3: Suppression fire is a thing. Misses (so long as it was reasonably close) will damage the AP of most targets (robots and some "feral" mutants which are so rabid to have no concept of morale are immune) on their next turn depending on "noise" of a cartridge. This means burst isn't just a quasi-melee ability, but an effective tool to shut down certain dangerous enemies. Some weapons/cartridges have pen modifiers making them high damage low pen (black powder rifle or 12 gauge slug) or high pen despite lower damage (5.56). Suppression effect is resisted by Charisma so that has a combat use.
4: Melee users get a free attack on anyone leaving their reach unless the mover pays extra AP. (makes it harder to run away from melee)
5: Rather than opening the inventory costing AP, using something from it or swapping weapons has a per item AP cost, and a character has a limited number of "ready" slots limited to smaller items (grenades, pistols, knives, knuckles, healing items, lights) where this cost is reduced. Less shenanigans, more use for smaller items.
6: Light is important to hit anything, but portable electric lights are common and their power isn't tracked short of being able to remove the battery (primarily to fuel energy weapons). Lights can be worn, thrown or placed (and setting something on fire creates light) so you have to plan lighting to make enemies vulnerable without making yourself vulnerable. Later game lets you find night vision, but you get penalties in heavy light and a penalty to aimed shots when using it.
7: Big guns are not a thing, just a pairing of strength and guns.
8: Projectiles are simulated rather than be simple hit chance.

Health:
1: HP is ((Endurance*10)+(endurance*2*(level-1))). This means HP depends more on Endurance, and is large enough to allow for weak attacks to deal damage consistently (instead of quickly overwhelming HP or having to be rounded down to zero) while small enough to be appreciable (at level 20 a max endurance character has only 400 HP compared to his starting value of 100, and a 5 endurance character has a starting value of 50 and 240 at level 20)
2: Single shots from weapons are damaging (a rifle or heavy stab with a spear from an average user might deal damage in the 30s). Later weapons are more dangerous because they can be used faster and are accurate enough to hit more vulnerable areas. HP sponges are never fun.
3: Bleeding is a thing for edged/pointed weapons and guns (not blunt or energy), dealing damage until the character receives healing.
4: Characters under half and under a quarter of their max HP take penalties until healed (by any amount). Combined with the above, it stops "spreading damage is useless because 1 HP enemy is as deadly as full HP enemy" nonsense.
5: Use a DT system for armor and let it nullify damage entirely, but armor only protects limited parts of the body (typically just torso for body armor and head for helmet). This means aimed shots have a point to exist beyond eyes for damage, groin in melee for stun and torso because you have nothing better to do with that one AP and might as well get a slightly better crit chance since the enemy can't reach you so the extra AC doesn't mater. Now the arm and (especially) legs shots are how you damage armored targets you can't penetrate without the huge accuracy sacrifice of a face shot. It also makes power armor scarier and more distinct: It's not just tough, but it protects the whole body.

Weapons
1: Use the rules Sawyer made for NV when designing weapon stats. No "strictly better" upgrades, all weapons should have a reason to use them over the rest of their tier, a reason to use the rest of the tier over them, and not all weapon types ("shotgun", "pistol", "distance rifle") have an entry each tier.
2: Guns are reasonably common, but most ammo, especially exotic ammo, is relatively rare and expensive due to being a limited resource and rarely stored in a condition to last the end of the world. Black powder, 22lr, and shotgun shells are reasonably common (and more than enough for a gun specialist to never be totally out of ammo, so long as he's willing to use an inferior weapon) due to post-war production and sheer pre-war quantity respectively, but that fancy .44 magnum is just a paperweight if you expend the cartridges you found it with and can't get more. Needing ammo is Gun's weakness compared to unarmed, melee so it should actually mater.
3: New Vegas's cartridge reloading system is in. Turning stuff that's useful for other characters (instead of just useless except for crafting) into stuff useful for you and turning limited resources into your choice of consumables remains one of the few crafting systems that's actually fun. Also makes explosives more viable as primary if you can make improvised grenades from powder, lead and scrap metal.
4: Ala Morrowind, fodder enemies use crap weapons with minimum trade value for their weight (post-war muzzleloaders, single/double shotguns, plinking rifles) where their limited ammo supplies are worth more than the guns. They're threats because their numbers make up for their low fire rate/damage and give them more chances to "get lucky". This cuts down on bandits being gold mines and picking up everything to loot (some shit just isn't worth it), but the changes to HP and AP means their numbers will keep them a threat.
5: Manually operated guns cost the same AP as a self loader to fire, but need the pump/rack done after firing (pump action, bolt action) or cocking done before firing (single action revolvers, flintlocks) as separate actions that cost AP. This allows for more system finesse than a weapon just being slower to fire and forces more tactical options (do you wait till you're in cover to work the bolt or do you do it immediately? Ambushes are more effective.). A SA/DA handgun can fire DA instead of cocking at a cost of lower accuracy.
6: Energy weapons are relatively common at all stages, instead of non-existent early, rare mid and common late like F1/F2 (which is just unworkable without meta knowledge and broken with it). They have low suppression but generally low strength requirements and tend to have secondary effects (for example lasers have high armor AP, plasma sets targets on fire, electric damages action points if it hits, concussion pushes enemy back/down, wave has low damage but ignores armor and thinner cover entirely) which make swapping between multiple energy weapons viable. The early ones are "recharger" systems, which automatically recover ammo each round (but less than you could fire), or take standard "domestic" batteries. Some have internal batteries and can take any type of battery but need hours to pull that charge (making them quasi per-day expendables).
7: Smoke grenades are a thing.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom