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Infinity vs Warmachine
- Thread starter Destroid
- Start date
Thanks, tuluse.
What are your overall thoughts on Infinity, Destroid ?
I found a local gaming group that does Warmachine and Infinity on the same night, at the same time lol. So my plan is to go there and watch some games, maybe play some demo games. I'm really more interested in Warmachine at the moment, though the Infinity rules do seem very neat (very videogamey, in fact I just played a similar flexible orders system in Valkyria Chronicles, and of course interrupt mechanics abound in games like SS and JA2).
But I realize now that the mechanics for Warmachine and Infinity are so different, AND an army is much cheaper for both than certain other wargames... So why not both? Haha.
I've also caught a glimpse of Firestorm Armada. It's a spaceship wargame, like Battlefleet Gothic I guess. One of the most vocal 40k 'hardcore' players - Stelek, always critical of GW though was still always very invested the game - recently quit and settled on Firestorm Armada. I assume that means it's a well balanced and fun game to play, but I don't know much else.
Destroid I'd also be down to trial some Infinity in a Maptools framework. Sure as hell a lot easier to deal with than Vassal. Combined Army has caught my eye, everything else too weaboo or too stylishly-mundane. I love the theme of Ariadna for sure, but I wish they had a little more stylistic "edge" outside of the Werewolves. That being said I do like the Templar Knights-esque Sectorials in PanO
What are your overall thoughts on Infinity, Destroid ?
I found a local gaming group that does Warmachine and Infinity on the same night, at the same time lol. So my plan is to go there and watch some games, maybe play some demo games. I'm really more interested in Warmachine at the moment, though the Infinity rules do seem very neat (very videogamey, in fact I just played a similar flexible orders system in Valkyria Chronicles, and of course interrupt mechanics abound in games like SS and JA2).
But I realize now that the mechanics for Warmachine and Infinity are so different, AND an army is much cheaper for both than certain other wargames... So why not both? Haha.
I've also caught a glimpse of Firestorm Armada. It's a spaceship wargame, like Battlefleet Gothic I guess. One of the most vocal 40k 'hardcore' players - Stelek, always critical of GW though was still always very invested the game - recently quit and settled on Firestorm Armada. I assume that means it's a well balanced and fun game to play, but I don't know much else.
Destroid I'd also be down to trial some Infinity in a Maptools framework. Sure as hell a lot easier to deal with than Vassal. Combined Army has caught my eye, everything else too weaboo or too stylishly-mundane. I love the theme of Ariadna for sure, but I wish they had a little more stylistic "edge" outside of the Werewolves. That being said I do like the Templar Knights-esque Sectorials in PanO
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http://www.mediafire.com/download/oq27x6odl5xazuj/Infinitool_v1-5.zip
There's a link to the module, I'm not down to play it at the moment (it takes quite a while to play over the internet), but generally I'd say it's the best tabletop miniatures game I've played. The lore is a bit dull but the rules are excellent. The simultaneous turns is a real plus because it keeps you engaged in the game the whole time, rather than waiting around for your opponent to finish their turn.
There's a link to the module, I'm not down to play it at the moment (it takes quite a while to play over the internet), but generally I'd say it's the best tabletop miniatures game I've played. The lore is a bit dull but the rules are excellent. The simultaneous turns is a real plus because it keeps you engaged in the game the whole time, rather than waiting around for your opponent to finish their turn.
Are there any 24/7 servers that run the framework?
Also the thing about Infinity is that it's so well designed yet in a way similar to good squad based video games I can just boot up.
Yet there is really no video game equivalent of the higher-than-squad level (platoon level?) wargame a la Warmachine and 40k. That's kinda what's driving me towards Warmachine (besides the art design which I like more than Infinity due to the cartoony and quirkiness).
But in the end I think it's feasible to play both. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Also the thing about Infinity is that it's so well designed yet in a way similar to good squad based video games I can just boot up.
Yet there is really no video game equivalent of the higher-than-squad level (platoon level?) wargame a la Warmachine and 40k. That's kinda what's driving me towards Warmachine (besides the art design which I like more than Infinity due to the cartoony and quirkiness).
But in the end I think it's feasible to play both. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Haven't played Infinity. I've played a little WarmaHordes a couple of years ago.
A couple of things stood out for me coming from WHFB/W40K at the time:
A couple of things stood out for me coming from WHFB/W40K at the time:
- Most units had multiple hitpoints. I understand that WarmaHordes nowadays has more warhammer-style groups of 1HP units, but back then it was pretty much just big monsters and warjacks
- Units lost abilities when they got injured. Damage was assigned to locations on the warjacks or mind/body/spirit tracks on the warbeasts. So a half-hitpoints enemy was usually less dangerous than a full hp one
- Meta-resources. In warmachine, your leaders generate a "focus" resource which they can use to pay for warjacks sing special abilities near them. In Hordes there is a "fury" resource, which I found much more interesting. Instead of the leader figures paying for monsters using special moves, monsters generated fury when they performed them. The leader figures could then leech the fury off nearby beasts to cast spells. Monsters with left-over fury had a chance of going berserk, attacking friends and foe alike.
- Battles were generally smaller. Again, battle reports on jewtube seem to indicate big battles are becoming more common. But when I played it, you had 4-5 units per side. The rules seem to be designed fo rsmall skirmishes too.
- The mechanics were pretty tight once you wrapped your head around them. No big buckets of dice. Nearly every single test was 2d6+stat vs target number, with stats and target numbers being written down on your unit cards.
- Most units could use special abilities, like throwing enemies around, casting spells and the like. Very few combats were just two units trading blows. Even the "squad" units tended to have a couple of mechanics, like Everblight Legionnaires gaining defensive bonuses when they were deployed in a tight (base-to-base) formation.
- All models came with a MTG-sized card that outlined all their abilities, statistics and damage location tracks. No need to buy expensive splatbooks to figure out what the new unit did or pore over the main book to look shit up. Just grab the cards matching the units you're deploying and you're good to go. People would sleeve the cards and use a dry-erase marker to track hitpoints. Tapping cards to indicate units had moved and placing condition markers on the cards instead of the units to keep the playing surface clean etc. I really liked the cards. They added a lot to the game.
- Because the goal was to kill the opposing guys leader, not kill the biggest point cost of units, the game saw a lot of (often hilarious) suicide kamikaze runs. Because the leaders had to be near their army to use fury/focus, they never hid in a corner.
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
Another thing that bears mention is that Privateer Press average model quality is superior to that of GW's, the models are bigger, and their in-house paint line is quality stuff (and they actually sell paint set boxes with the proper combination of paints in them). And yea, they make up for having prices comparable to GW with the fact their games are designed around using a fraction of the investment GW demands, with a standard Warmachine army being in the price range of somewhere around 1/3-1/2 of a 2k point GW army.
Furthermore, PP doesn't do GW's half-assed Codex/Army List update model. PP launched the second edition of Warmachine in January 2010. By July 2010 all the existing armies had brand-new army books (which you didn't need unless you wanted to have Theme Forces, an excellent rule btw, or find out more about the more exotic possibilities of a given faction). By the end of 2010 PP had also launched all the Hordes army books as well. Since then, PP has updated the army lists with expansion books, each of which includes new units for ALL the factions, no fucking around with re-releasing faction books either.
And then we get into the gameplay. Ulminati already touched upon the abundant special rules and tactics given to each unit (even standard rifle-toting mooks have special abilities in Warmachine). First thing you'll notice is that ALL Warjacks and Warbeasts have a beefy list of special moves they can do, from ramming and trampling to throwing opponents around the battlefield. Lots of units also have synergy rules with each other, such as Cygnar Stormblades unit fighting alongside Stormclad Warjacks (a straightforward example, the Stormblades generate extra Focus for the 'jack if they're near it). The leader units take this even further, with each leader having a mostly unique spell list (some straightforward spells appear a couple of times), and on top of that their own special gear and special rules, with the once-per-game Feat as sugar-coating. And that's before adding in their Theme Force rule (each leader has a Theme Force rule, where by building your battlegroup within certain restrictions nets various bonuses).
In case of Warmachine, a good example of the variation within a faction is to compare General Adept Nemo and the infamous Lord Commander Stryker for Cygnar. Nemo is built for control effects (both buff and debuff) and working in conjunction with 'jacks, having more than average Focus (which he can also recover, allowing for tactical flexibility). Majority of Nemo's gameplay revolves around two things: 1) Movement denial for the enemy, 2) Buffing the fuck out of your own 'jacks (Nemo's Feat allows him to give all the Warjacks in his battlegroup maximum Focus once per game, which is the round your opponent probably doesn't want happening). Lord Commander Stryker on the other hand is all about blitz offense into melee (something of an oddity in the mostly ranged-oriented Cygnar), with a spell list designed for support and one special use. There's two things that give epic Stryker (this leader is the plot-advanced, or Epic, version of Commander Coleman Stryker, the Cygnar poster boy) his reputation as one of the most infamous leader units in Warmachine: 1) His feat allows his entire force (if they're close enough) to advance up to 3" and make a melee attack, and 2) Stryker is the king of kamikaze. Stryker's secondary utility is that he is THE most devastating melee damage-dealer in Warmachine, as he has a special rule that lets him do Kaio-Ken. Basically, Stryker rolls two sets of dice, up to 3d6, and then adds the dice from the first roll to his base Strength and takes the second dice set as damage, which can kill him. This can translate to Stryker ramming in multiple 33+3d6 damage hits (for reference, most heavy Warjacks around 35 hp total + armor, leader units have around 16 hp + armor). High risk, high reward shtick (then again, WarmaHordes prides itself on rewarding aggressive tactics).
Furthermore, PP doesn't do GW's half-assed Codex/Army List update model. PP launched the second edition of Warmachine in January 2010. By July 2010 all the existing armies had brand-new army books (which you didn't need unless you wanted to have Theme Forces, an excellent rule btw, or find out more about the more exotic possibilities of a given faction). By the end of 2010 PP had also launched all the Hordes army books as well. Since then, PP has updated the army lists with expansion books, each of which includes new units for ALL the factions, no fucking around with re-releasing faction books either.
And then we get into the gameplay. Ulminati already touched upon the abundant special rules and tactics given to each unit (even standard rifle-toting mooks have special abilities in Warmachine). First thing you'll notice is that ALL Warjacks and Warbeasts have a beefy list of special moves they can do, from ramming and trampling to throwing opponents around the battlefield. Lots of units also have synergy rules with each other, such as Cygnar Stormblades unit fighting alongside Stormclad Warjacks (a straightforward example, the Stormblades generate extra Focus for the 'jack if they're near it). The leader units take this even further, with each leader having a mostly unique spell list (some straightforward spells appear a couple of times), and on top of that their own special gear and special rules, with the once-per-game Feat as sugar-coating. And that's before adding in their Theme Force rule (each leader has a Theme Force rule, where by building your battlegroup within certain restrictions nets various bonuses).
In case of Warmachine, a good example of the variation within a faction is to compare General Adept Nemo and the infamous Lord Commander Stryker for Cygnar. Nemo is built for control effects (both buff and debuff) and working in conjunction with 'jacks, having more than average Focus (which he can also recover, allowing for tactical flexibility). Majority of Nemo's gameplay revolves around two things: 1) Movement denial for the enemy, 2) Buffing the fuck out of your own 'jacks (Nemo's Feat allows him to give all the Warjacks in his battlegroup maximum Focus once per game, which is the round your opponent probably doesn't want happening). Lord Commander Stryker on the other hand is all about blitz offense into melee (something of an oddity in the mostly ranged-oriented Cygnar), with a spell list designed for support and one special use. There's two things that give epic Stryker (this leader is the plot-advanced, or Epic, version of Commander Coleman Stryker, the Cygnar poster boy) his reputation as one of the most infamous leader units in Warmachine: 1) His feat allows his entire force (if they're close enough) to advance up to 3" and make a melee attack, and 2) Stryker is the king of kamikaze. Stryker's secondary utility is that he is THE most devastating melee damage-dealer in Warmachine, as he has a special rule that lets him do Kaio-Ken. Basically, Stryker rolls two sets of dice, up to 3d6, and then adds the dice from the first roll to his base Strength and takes the second dice set as damage, which can kill him. This can translate to Stryker ramming in multiple 33+3d6 damage hits (for reference, most heavy Warjacks around 35 hp total + armor, leader units have around 16 hp + armor). High risk, high reward shtick (then again, WarmaHordes prides itself on rewarding aggressive tactics).
Hush now. I agree what you say, WM definitely >>> 40k, but I don't really want GW talk in this thread haha.
Thank you for this!
My first Infinity army coming together (Ariadna)...
They're only primed and based for now so nothing to see yet. Give me a week or two, heh.
I'll do a writeup of the game later.. The thing is there are a lot of special circumstantial rules, I need to try to figure out how to summarize the game in a "basic" manner and highlight only the most interesting aspects of the game.
They're only primed and based for now so nothing to see yet. Give me a week or two, heh.
I'll do a writeup of the game later.. The thing is there are a lot of special circumstantial rules, I need to try to figure out how to summarize the game in a "basic" manner and highlight only the most interesting aspects of the game.
Oh, and I'll be starting a Protectorate Army, too. Proctectorate of Menoth. I might be starting a lot slower than that though since there's an Escalation League for Infinity next month.
Mangoose Corvus Belli's own video tutorials are pretty solid in this regard. How do you find Ariadna? I quite liked their style, especially the scary firepower of things like the tankhunter and all the camo units, but found it quite difficult to deal with superstar units like TAGs and Aleph characters, and especially anything with TO camo or those -6 to hit gear.
What you do is leave your units in camo to force the enemy to waste orders discovering you. In other words, don't ARO (unless the situation really favors it, of course). And then on your active turn, attack out of camo (Combat Camouflage) which lets you do an unopposed roll instead of a face-to-face.
I'm still in the learning phase and points level so I haven't faced a tough rambo unit like a TAG yet. But my thinking would be to either ignore the TAG and kill off its support/order-generators - which Ariadna skirmishers are really good at because they have camo and direct template weapons (flamethrowers, chain rifles). Or else I heard Tankhunters are Ariadna's "hackers" in that you can smash a TAG with concentrated firepower from a few heavy weapons Tankhunters that are again attacking out of camo.
Edit:
Oh yeah, forgot one piece of advice I got on the Infinity forums. Versus TAGs, Adhesive Launchers are very useful too. And you can find those on Tankhunters and Chasseurs (which is an infiltrating camo skirmisher!)
I'm still in the learning phase and points level so I haven't faced a tough rambo unit like a TAG yet. But my thinking would be to either ignore the TAG and kill off its support/order-generators - which Ariadna skirmishers are really good at because they have camo and direct template weapons (flamethrowers, chain rifles). Or else I heard Tankhunters are Ariadna's "hackers" in that you can smash a TAG with concentrated firepower from a few heavy weapons Tankhunters that are again attacking out of camo.
Edit:
Oh yeah, forgot one piece of advice I got on the Infinity forums. Versus TAGs, Adhesive Launchers are very useful too. And you can find those on Tankhunters and Chasseurs (which is an infiltrating camo skirmisher!)
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On the one hand this thread 'should' be split into two, but these are the best games out there, I think - that aren't majorly expensive (X-wing, I'm looking at you).
So two things:
Quick battle highlights
Got my Werewolf killed by a sniper because dumb positioning and order allocation and not using my other units to flank
On the other hand I BLASTED this guy (with my Chasseur) using combat camo and a light flamethrower. (If you're camouflaged, aka an indistinguishable marker that could be any unit, you get to hit the enemy before they hit you. This is important because in a regular shot, both models shoot and can nullify each others' shots). I think he had a heavy flamethrower hehehe but can't shoot me when you're burning to death!
All in all I managed to take out two of hits units due to bad positioning/mistakes, he took out two of my units because he has this guy that can impersonate my soldiers.. and my Werewolf of course due to bad positioning. I really need to stop hanging out on roofs prone without cover. I forget others can climb up also and nullify the cover bonus lul.
---
Second part
Still torn between Khador and Menoth
So Protectorate units are pretty cool, and their warjacks are awesome and versatile. I really like gun-jacks and also interesting light warjacks. Not much to say but I like their playstyle and their aesthetics... But my gut keeps pulling me in two directions:
On the other hand, Khador units are slightly beyond cool, as I like their versatility not just in role but in aesthetics. However some models run into a big aesthetic issue with me... I can't stand the sculpts for the Kayazy Assassins and the Assault Kommandos, and I'm also saying no to the Behemoth. Which is why I question playing Khador because that limits my preference for some ranged-jacked shooting a bit.
That leads to a question: What kind of versatility can I expect from Khador warjacks? Do they all have the same tactical role of being a beatstick? From cursory research it seems some are good at tanking?
Note: I'm thinking of a combined arms force, so a Khadoran army with two heavy jacks in my mind counts close enough to a combined arms force.
And, finally, warcasters. All of Menoth's casters seem like they would be interesting to me in playstyle.* On the other hand, the Old Witch of Khador keeps calling to me. And any jack caster that can run a balanced jack/infantry force.
*I suppose playstyle wise I like tricks. Cryxian tricks seem to be the most fun but I am not at all into the aesthetics and infantryspam, so I'll make due with Menoth's denial. So how good are Old Witch and anyone I missed at similar shenanigans? Am I limiting myself if I pick a faction that only has 1-2 casters I like? Hm..
So two things:
Quick battle highlights
Got my Werewolf killed by a sniper because dumb positioning and order allocation and not using my other units to flank
On the other hand I BLASTED this guy (with my Chasseur) using combat camo and a light flamethrower. (If you're camouflaged, aka an indistinguishable marker that could be any unit, you get to hit the enemy before they hit you. This is important because in a regular shot, both models shoot and can nullify each others' shots). I think he had a heavy flamethrower hehehe but can't shoot me when you're burning to death!
All in all I managed to take out two of hits units due to bad positioning/mistakes, he took out two of my units because he has this guy that can impersonate my soldiers.. and my Werewolf of course due to bad positioning. I really need to stop hanging out on roofs prone without cover. I forget others can climb up also and nullify the cover bonus lul.
---
Second part
Still torn between Khador and Menoth
So Protectorate units are pretty cool, and their warjacks are awesome and versatile. I really like gun-jacks and also interesting light warjacks. Not much to say but I like their playstyle and their aesthetics... But my gut keeps pulling me in two directions:
On the other hand, Khador units are slightly beyond cool, as I like their versatility not just in role but in aesthetics. However some models run into a big aesthetic issue with me... I can't stand the sculpts for the Kayazy Assassins and the Assault Kommandos, and I'm also saying no to the Behemoth. Which is why I question playing Khador because that limits my preference for some ranged-jacked shooting a bit.
That leads to a question: What kind of versatility can I expect from Khador warjacks? Do they all have the same tactical role of being a beatstick? From cursory research it seems some are good at tanking?
Note: I'm thinking of a combined arms force, so a Khadoran army with two heavy jacks in my mind counts close enough to a combined arms force.
And, finally, warcasters. All of Menoth's casters seem like they would be interesting to me in playstyle.* On the other hand, the Old Witch of Khador keeps calling to me. And any jack caster that can run a balanced jack/infantry force.
*I suppose playstyle wise I like tricks. Cryxian tricks seem to be the most fun but I am not at all into the aesthetics and infantryspam, so I'll make due with Menoth's denial. So how good are Old Witch and anyone I missed at similar shenanigans? Am I limiting myself if I pick a faction that only has 1-2 casters I like? Hm..
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
Khador only has a single Light 'jack, and that's a character 'jack. Khador's Heavy 'jacks tend to be either pure melee beatsticks and some of them are hybrids (ie, Destroyer and Decimator, Spriggan also has an anti-infantry ranged weapon); all of them being tough as hell (Devastator being EXCEPTIONALLY tough as hell in a frontal assault). They're slightly more inaccurate at range than Protectorate and Cygnar, and their ranged weaponry tends to orientate towards cannons of various types. Khador tends to use very blunt and direct 'jack approach, with infantry having more advanced tactics (ie, Kolduns, Widowmakers, Assault Kommandos, light artillery). Personally, I love Assault Kommandos, especially with Strakhov's list granting you trenches for each AK unit.
I myself tend to orientate my armies around combined arms as well, with my Khador force using Strakhov's Black Operations theme force to set up a strong defensive line and a sniper flank, and my other force using Epic Stryker's theme force to have a blitzkrieg attack using Stormblades and Stormclad 'jacks in formation with Stryker himself taking point with Thunderhead and Ol' Rowdy. If I'd make a Menoth force, it'd definately use either Mr Instant Crucification or the Zealot JIHAAAAAD style Vindictus has.
I myself tend to orientate my armies around combined arms as well, with my Khador force using Strakhov's Black Operations theme force to set up a strong defensive line and a sniper flank, and my other force using Epic Stryker's theme force to have a blitzkrieg attack using Stormblades and Stormclad 'jacks in formation with Stryker himself taking point with Thunderhead and Ol' Rowdy. If I'd make a Menoth force, it'd definately use either Mr Instant Crucification or the Zealot JIHAAAAAD style Vindictus has.
They're too ugly, will never play lol.
Bklhabasbhlsdhb Assault Kommandos have ugly ass sculpts. And I'm especially more picky since I've been playing with Infinity minis haha.
How many 'tricksy' stuff does Khador have? For example, Warcasters. I'm familiar with Old Witch having a lot of shenanigans. How are the other casters, whether they affect jacks or units or both? People on other forums are telling me Menoth playstyle is actually more straightforward than Khador's, despite all the neat spells their casters have. Hm... Lots to think about. But I guess Journeyman League isn't starting for a month.
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
Epic Irusk can move models around with abandon, Vlad buffs units like crazy, while you might first think Karchev is a straightforward beatstick he can do tricks with Tow, Strakhov can grant a unit Stealth and can play mobility tricks, Zerkova has a bag of tricks... Stuff like that. Besides that everyone's got a Theme Force list which adds something extra on top (aforementioned trenches for Strakhov). The thing is, Khador is SLOW, and needs active use of spells and tactics to compensate.
Fffuuu tough choice because Menoth warcasters seem to be able to have a lot of tricks too. Have you any experience playing or playing against Menoth? Ugh, maybe I should just buy a 15 pt army for both, lol.
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
I sadly haven't played tabletop that much mostly due to myself. But in any situation the key to playing Warmachine is as this video instructs:
That is except the situations where you're clearly being goaded into a trap.
Really, I'd say it's best to just go over the warcasters and their theme lists yourself, given how unique each are and how differently they can click together for a player.
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