Is Bethesda inclined?

[Makabb]

I have to admit that current Bioware games make Bethesda look good, but it's not thanks to Bethesda doing better. Bioware is just plummeting even further. It's not a high standard that anyone has to try hard to get too, they just need to make a RPG and that's what Beth is doing, just being there.

 

[Sykar]

I have to admit that current Bioware games make Bethesda look good, but it's not thanks to Bethesda doing better. Bioware is just plummeting even further. It's not a high standard that anyone has to try hard to get too, they just need to make a RPG and that's what Beth is doing, just being there.

It actually makes me sad considering there was quite some potential in the original DA:O and ME 1 games, despite many flaws, same goes with Daggerfall and Morrowind, but instead of improving on the flaws and perfect their strength they stagnate in the strength department and outright fall rock bottom in the weakness department, or worse decline on both fronts. Nothing to admire there and even some life signs of minor improvements doesn't save the fact that both companies are overall major decline last decade and I doubt they will ever rise again over much more than pandering to the average retard who can barely keep up looking at the compass while auto running and wanking to the newest boob mod.

 

[Avellion]

Dragons Wyverns Reptilian Cliff Racers was one of the worst design decisions of skyrim too. But BioWare is declining faster and harder than bethesda. Bethesda is at least trying to make a decent game, they may lack the skills, but dammit, they want to make a good game. Skyrim was not as horrible as Oblivion or The Elder Scrolls: Land of the Green Sky.

Its like a guy in a wheelchair competing in the olympics. At least they are not running backwards though, unlike BioWare.

And while I am at it,

Joined:
Nov 8, 2014

 

[Sykar]

Dragons Wyverns Reptilian Cliff Racers was one of the worst design decisions of skyrim too. But BioWare is declining faster and harder than bethesda. Bethesda is at least trying to make a decent game, they may lack the skills, but dammit, they want to make a good game. Skyrim was not as horrible as Oblivion or The Elder Scrolls: Land of the Green Sky.

Its like a guy in a wheelchair competing in the olympics. At least they are not running backwards though, unlike BioWare.

And while I am at it,

As much as I hate defending Glaurung, join date is not an argument whatsoever.
Besides, you joined Jan 2014, just a few months earlier so you are not exactly some 10 year wise guy forum participant.

 

[Glaurung]

All the slider does in TES games is bloat HP for enemies and nerf your own. Artificial difficulty in the worst way so I don't bother with it. I played on the default difficulty in both games and at least in Morrowind there was some risk if you wander into certain areas/dungeons whilst underleveled. I can't recall ever encountering an enemy in Skyrim that I would need better gear or skills to defeat.

You're joking, right? You complained about combat being too easy. I told you "raise difficulty and you'll be playing a much more challenging game". You have nothing in response to that and admitted to playing on easy. Also, the difficulty slider does not affect your HP, it makes enemies attacks deal more damage and be able to absorb more damage to themselves. Which is what difficulty is supposed to do. Point dismissed.

In general the NPC's of Morrowind were awful, I agree, but at least the quests encouraged you to delve into ingame literature on stuff like the culture of morrowind and it's political history, differing accounts of the lives of nerevar and the tribunal, etc. I found most of that stuff really interesting and decently written for a cRPG. Skyrim on the other hand made even dragons boring, went along with oblivion in trashing TES lore, had pointless guilds with like 5 quests each, and every quest was just follow the compass. Sure I'll give it that the NPC's at least had unique lines, but overall the writing and setting was far less memorable for me.

Skyrim did the exact same thing with culture and history of Skyrim, the differing accounts of Skyrim's kings and the Dragonborn, the surreal relationship between Akatosh and Alduin, etc. If you subjectively prefer Morrowind's writing to SKyrim's - so do I, but it doesn't make Skyrim a bad game. Point dismissed.

This is just a stupid thing the TES series loves to do.

Right, when a flaw relates to Morrowind it's just a 'stupid thing TES series likes to do", but when a much lesser flaw relates to Skyrim, it's an apocalyptic omen of decline and consoletardation. Double standards, much? Point dismissed.

At least in Morrowind you needed the right stats though.

Another abstraction with no justification in gameplay. Does the Mage's Guild test your skills with their magical state-measuring equipment when you're not looking? It is enough that you prove to be a mage when joining, and then fulfill quests for the guild and get promoted for that. Point dismissed.

Pretty sure I became the leader of the college of winterhold just a couple hours after discovering it without ever even casting a single spell.

You will not be admitted to the college unless you cast a specific spell to the Altmer lady at the entrance. Point dismissed.

Ugh the Stormcloaks vs Imperials was so boring and as far as I can tell the reasons for Thalmor banning worship of Talos was 'jus cuz'. Alduin was also the typical ancient evil doomsday villian™.

Ugh the Sixth House vs. Almsivi was so boring and as far as I can tell the reasons for Azura choosing Nerevarine was 'jus cuz'. Dagoth Ur was also the typical ancient evil doomsday villian™. Point dismissed.

as far as I can tell the reasons for Thalmor banning worship of Talos was 'jus cuz'

Thalmor are elven supremacists and Talos was a human emperor who conquered Summerset Isles with Numidium. It should be obvious to anyone with a minimal knowledge of the setting why Thalmor would ban his worship. Point dismissed.

 

[Perkel]

I don't think anyone tries to say morrowind story or characters were awesome.
Most of people simply says that both of those were better in morrowind which is true.

I was there at release of Morrowind and back then it was shit game for me precisely because it had shit characters, story but it did have some fun things like magic system.

Now take Oblivion and Skyrim and even that is shit.

 

[Snorkack]

wat

..

I stated my points already. Calling Bethesdas recent RPG entries 'incline' in times where we just have a really good year in terms of crpgs behind us and another promising one ahead of us is slightly ridiculous.

You may enjoy the game setting arbitrary hurdles in an attempt at simulating difficulty, but that's your problem. Objectively, a superior system is one that allows you to take the challenge, but becomes insurmountably difficult if you lack the skill, giving you a choice between fiddling with the lock for a long time, or giving up and returning later.

Man, I would even agree with you if lockpicks were scarce, or failure would result in a jammed lock. However, none of that is true for S. Even on my first time playing, after ~3 hours in, I could open every lock within a minute. Maybe you feel different because you are physically challenged or didn't get the system, but it is really not that hard.

 

[Avellion]

As much as I hate defending Glaurung, join date is not an argument whatsoever.
Besides, you joined Jan 2014, just a few months earlier so you are not exactly some 10 year wise guy forum participant.

True. I am hoping he gives me a witty comeback.

You're joking, right? You complained about combat being too easy. I told you "raise difficulty and you'll be playing a much more challenging game". You have nothing in response to that and admitted to playing on easy. Also, the difficulty slider does not affect your HP, it makes enemies attacks deal more damage and be able to absorb more damage to themselves. Which is what difficulty is supposed to do. Point conceded.

Raising the difficulty does not make the encoutner design or mechanics more complex, it does not improve the AI, it does not give the enemy new skills and tools to use against you. He was speaking metaphorically too, of course it doesnt lower your HP, but it mostly fulfills the same function by increasing enemy damage.

Right, when a flaw relates to Morrowind it's just a 'stupid thing TES series likes to do", but when a much lesser flaw relates to Skyrim, it's an apocalyptic omen of decline and consoletardation. Double standards, much?

In Skyrim it is a lot easier to do though. My barbarian with no magic skills was the archmage.

 

[Crevice tab]

Yes Bethesda has inclined. Skyrim is incredibly better than Oblivion and Fallout 3 and miles ahead of the crap spewn by Bioware.

Does that make Bethesda's work actually good? Not really- they were doing better work more than a decade ago with Morrowind. I mean look at what we're comparing Skyrim with: Oblivion's generic potato headed characters that inhabit copy pasted dungeons and are blessed with the most retarded levelling system known to man, Fallout 3's inane writing and quests and utterly atrocious combat, Dragon Age 2 which was not only blessed with repetitive boring fights, repetitive retarded characters and repetitive generic setting but also shoved Bioware's SJW crap down our throats and of course le piece de resistance: the utterly painful Dragon Age Inquisition which makes you fully appreciate DA2's brevity.

It doesn't take much to build better RPGs than the above mentioned examples. In fact I'm at a loss regarding how did the some of the AAA shit spewed by the industry got designed.

 

[Luzur]

Besides, there's plenty of rumors and vague statements about a proper sequel to Skyrim being set in the Black Marsh and expected for 2016. The Elder Scrolls VI: Eye of Argonia?

Rumors ive heard where Elsweyr and the Empire vs Dominion plot part, so i guess it can go any direction

 

[Sykar]

I don't think anyone tries to say morrowind story or characters were awesome.
Most of people simply says that both of those were better in morrowind which is true.

I was there at release of Morrowind and back then it was shit game for me precisely because it had shit characters, story but it did have some fun things like magic system.

Now take Oblivion and Skyrim and even that is shit.

Ok I want to know, which cRPGS had massively better written NPCs? Just curious because from the couple of cRPGS I had played at the time, MW had decent writing for a game made in 2001.

 

[Glaurung]

promising

Not, not promising. Quite the opposite, actually.

The rest of your post is self-evidently false. I win.

Great debating techniques from neckbeard shitlords.

Raising the difficulty does not make the encoutner design or mechanics more complex, it does not improve the AI, it does not give the enemy new skills and tools to use against you.

You need to first establish that there's something wrong with everything you just stated in the actual game. There isn't, and it doesn't need to be dependent on the difficulty slider. Enemy mages, for instance, are actually quite annoying, because they will use wards every time you're trying to charge an attack spell - dremora churls were fucking infuriating.

He was speaking metaphorically too, of course it doesnt lower your HP, but it mostly fulfills the same function by increasing enemy damage.

He was speaking factually incorrectly. Nerfing HP is one thing, increasing enemy damage is another thing, even if it leads to the same result under some circumstances.

In Skyrim it is a lot easier to do though. My barbarian with no magic skills was the archmage.

That's still more reasonable than an Argonian n'wa leading House Telvanni, becoming archmage of Mage's Guild, Primate of Imperial Cult and Pope of the Almsivi Temple.

There's plenty of morons in positions of leadership at academic institutions, but I've never heard of the Dalai Lama being simultaneously Grand Ayatollah of Iran.

 

[Luzur]

Yeah i never liked the "BE EVERY CHIEF IN TOWN AT ONCE" thing with the guilds in the modern TES games, if you choose to join the Dong Rider Mercenaries, you should be locked out of being able to be High Ballsack of the Floating Mages.

Choices and Consequences!!!!

 

[Snorkack]

The rest of your post is self-evidently false. I win.

Congrats, Bro!

 

[Avellion]

You need to first establish that there's something wrong with everything you just stated in the actual game. There isn't, and it doesn't need to be dependent on the difficulty slider. Enemy mages, for instance, are actually quite annoying, because they will use wards every time you're trying to charge an attack spell - dremora churls were fucking infuriating.

I can not comment on the mages since Bronan the Brobarian didn't use magic. And I dont remember anything about Dermora Churls.

That's still more reasonable than an Argonian n'wa leading House Telvanni, becoming archamge of Mage's Guild, Primate of Imperial Cult and Pope of the Almsivi Temple

That was a mistake in the past. The mistake should be re-iterated and improved upon, not repeated. Except this time, your skills dont even matter anymore for joining or your position in guilds.

 

[Sykar]

Now if I may, I'd feel much more confortable defending MW and not bashing it in this thread so let me point out that I really disagree on MW's dialogue system being shit, I think it's fucking great and I'd love to see it coming back in TES6 (which of course would never happen because they obviously prefer voice actor and all that). The problem is not the system itself but the repetitions everywhere. If each NPC in the game had more unique lines it would have been great.

Generally, having voices here and there but not in the entire speech is much more elegant and less painful to go through than fully voiced dialogues. It has also the best of both worlds, you get to hear the character's voice AND you can read his stuff at your own pace. I don't see they going that way though.

Thing is, normally no one would talk to evey god damn non descriptive NPC. Kinda hard to find unique dialogue for maybe 1000 lines and more for several hundred NPCs. I do like using the LGNPC project when I feel the need for another MW playthrough, albeit it's not the greatest writing ever but it does the job. Imho I'd really just let generic NPCs tell you to basically fuck off. Saves a lot of headaches and is not unreasonable imo.

I can not comment on the mages since Bronan the Brobarian didn't use magic. And I dont remember anything about Dermora Churls.



That was a mistake in the past. The mistake should be re-iterated and improved upon, not repeated. Except this time, your skills dont even matter anymore for joining or your position in guilds.

Yep, all you need is the magical dragon shout to get into the mage guild. Who needs knowledge about the arcane. Hell, I think I should be able to get admission for an advanced quantum physics class by the virtue of having read on Newtonian mechanics!

 

[Greatness]

You're joking, right? You complained about combat being too easy. I told you "raise difficulty and you'll be playing a much more challenging game". You have nothing in response to that and admitted to playing on easy. Also, the difficulty slider does not affect your HP, it makes enemies attacks deal more damage and be able to absorb more damage to themselves. Which is what difficulty is supposed to do. Point dismissed.

Playing default difficulty =/= Playing on easy difficulty. Do you not realize adjusting damage dealt/received and adjusting you/your enemies HP totals have the same effect on gameplay. Both games have the shitty difficulty slider and if anything Morrowind is harder on max difficulty since you can't just block every attack and rely on all encounters being down-scaled to your level.

Skyrim did the exact same thing with culture and history of Skyrim, the differing accounts of Skyrim's kings and the Dragonborn, the surreal relationship between Akatosh and Alduin, etc. If you subjectively prefer Morrowind's writing to SKyrim's - so do I, but it doesn't make Skyrim a bad game. Point dismissed.

??? Of course it's subjective. Just like me saying Skyrim's a shitty game is subjective. We all know there's a million console tards out there who say it's the best game ever created.You agree that it has inferior writing but dismiss that as irrelevant, is the quality of writing not important in an RPG for you or something?

Right, when a flaw relates to Morrowind it's just a 'stupid thing TES series likes to do", but when a much lesser flaw relates to Skyrim, it's an apocalyptic omen of decline and consoletardation. Double standards, much? Point dismissed.

What?

Another abstraction with no justification in gameplay. Does the Mage's Guild test your skills with their magical state-measuring equipment when you're not looking? It is enough that you prove to be a mage when joining, and then fulfill quests for the guild and get promoted for that. Point dismissed.

No justification in gameplay? Needing MAGICAL talents to advance in the fucking MAGES guild? At least there was some manner of choice and consequence in that you needed the right skills to advance in different guilds. Sure it's not perfect, but at least it was an attempt. Skyrim came 9 years later and didn't even make an attempt.

You will not be admitted to the college unless you cast a specific spell to the Altmer lady at the entrance. Point dismissed.

Ok, so you have to cast one (1!) spell that needs no investment of any kind, compared to Morrowind where you need to have nearly mastered (90pts) at least one magic school to become Archmage.

 

[Sykar]

Playing default difficulty =/= Playing on easy difficulty. Do you not realize adjusting damage dealt/received and adjusting you/your enemies HP totals have the same effect on gameplay. Both games have the shitty difficulty slider and if anything Morrowind is harder on max difficulty since you can't just block every attack and rely on all encounters being down-scaled to your level.



??? Of course it's subjective. Just like me saying Skyrim is a shitty game is subjective. We all know theirs a million console tards out there who say it's the best game ever created.You agree that it has inferior writing but dismiss that as irrelevant, is the quality of writing not important in an RPG for you or something?



What?



No justification in gameplay? Needing MAGICAL talents to advance in the fucking MAGES guild? At least there was some manner of choice and consequence in that you needed the right skills to advance in different guilds. Sure it's not perfect, but at least it was an attempt. Skyrim came 9 years later and didn't even make an attempt.



Ok, so you have to cast one (1!) spell that needs no investment of any kind, compared to Morrowind where you need to have nearly mastered (90pts) at least one magic school to become Archmage.

You do not even need any magical skill whatsoever. FUS RO DAH! solves all problems for gaining entry into Winterhold. :kwafuckyeah:

 

[Luzur]

Ok, so you have to cast one (1!) spell that needs no investment of any kind, compared to Morrowind where you need to have nearly mastered (90pts) at least one magic school to become Archmage.

Yes, that is derpy as heck, i didnt want to join the Mage Guild at all and yet i had to join it just to get into the damn building for that Elder Scroll quest for the Dawnguard.....geez.

 

[Lhynn]

The difficulty slider does not affect your HP, it makes enemies attacks deal more damage and be able to absorb more damage to themselves. Which is what difficulty is supposed to do.

This has to be the most retarded thing i have read this month. You should get a prize.

 

[Glaurung]

No justification in gameplay? Needing MAGICAL talents to advance in the fucking MAGES guild?

Yes, no justification in GAMEPLAY, not CONCEPT, idiot. There's never a point when any of the NPCs actually requires you to demonstrate your magical skills by casting spells or doing anything magic-related in the game. You could have one spell in each magic school that you cast in the corner to raise the skills, and still be considered eligible for the 90 skillpoint mark.

At least there was some manner of choice and consequence in that you needed the right skills to advance in different guilds. Sure it's not perfect, but at least it was an attempt.

This isn't choices and consequences, it's lack of choices and arbitrary requirements. C&C would mean that if you become archmage without having necessary skill, you would then face a backlash against other guild members and get sacked. Not filling out the asspulled 90 points quota that is in no way reflected during gameplay or acknowledged by any of the NPCs.

Ok, so you have to cast one (1!) spell that needs no investment of any kind

At least you need to actually cast a spell to get in, instead of having the NPCs telepathically calculate your skill level when you're not looking.

That was a mistake in the past. The mistake should be re-iterated and improved upon, not repeated.

You'll be happy to hear that it was improved, in Skyrim you can't join both Stormcloaks and Imperials, and in Dawnguard you can't join both vampire-hunters and vampires. Big improvement over Morrowind where mutually-exclusive factions casually shared the same leader.

Also, 'mistake should be reiterated' means 'mistake should be repeated numerous times'. Lern 2 English. :russia:

 

[Greatness]

Yes, no justification in GAMEPLAY, not CONCEPT, idiot. There's never a point when any of the NPCs actually requires you to demonstrate your magical skills by casting spells or doing anything magic-related in the game. You could have one spell in each magic school that you cast in the corner to raise the skills, and still be considered eligible for the 90 skillpoint mark.

What kind of semantic shit is this. Do you actually think it's incline to allow a character with zero magical talent to become the leader of the magical guild?

This isn't choices and consequences, it's lack of choices and arbitrary requirements. C&C would mean that if you become archmage without having necessary skill, you would then face a backlash against other guild members and get sacked. Not filling out the asspulled 90 points quota that is in no way reflected during gameplay or acknowledged by any of the NPCs.

It's obviously an example of chocies/consequences. You have to CHOOSE which guild you want to advance in and as a CONSEQUENCE you won't advance as easily in others. This isn't even mentioning how joining a guild affects the dispotion of rival/allied guild members. There's even some cases where guild quests conflict and prevent you from advancing in one or the other. Sure it's not perfect, but like I said it's at least an attempt. Skyrim had 9 years to advance the formulae but instead totally scrapped it altogether.

At least you need to actually cast a spell to get in, instead of having the NPCs telepathically calculate your skill level when you're not looking.

You'll be happy to hear that it was improved, in Skyrim you can't join both Stormcloaks and Imperials, and in Dawnguard you can't join both vampire-hunters and vampires. Big improvement over Morrowind where mutually-exclusive factions casually shared the same leader.

You can't become the leader of opposing great houses or opposing vampire clans in Morrowind either...

 

[hoverdog]

Classical example right here of the

Top 3 Ingredients to make a really shitty thread in GRPGD:

1)


Apologists for shit "roleplaying" games.

2)

3)

PS: Retarded and excessive thread moving/merging/splitting also contributes a lot in keeping GRPGD full of shit.

So glaurung is liberal? that would explain a few things.

 

[Press X for Feels]

I thought Skyrim was decent but it really annoyed me how there's tacit acknowledgment right from the beginning that you're the chosen one because everyone literally lines up in every town to give you quest without any reason to do so. It's really symptomatic of modern RPGs acting as blatant wish fulfillment. At least in Morrowind you had to actually talk to people and learn their problems before they'd give you a quest.

 

[Glaurung]

What kind of semantic shit is this. Do you actually think it's incline to allow a character with zero magical talent to become the leader of the magical guild?

I think that you either need to enable the testing of magical talent as an in-game procedure (special quest, arena mage duel, complete a project, anything) or failing that simply leave the doors open to the player's discretion. Arbitrary abstraction is worse than everything. There's a weak early attempt at this when the Khajiit girl asks you to bring special flowers and mushrooms for her potion, but she's not really your superior and you don't have to brew the potion yourself.

You have to CHOOSE which guild you want to advance in and as a CONSEQUENCE you won't advance as easily in others.

It's a consequence of character generation, not choosing a guild. Remember when you choose between warrior, thief and mage at char gen? That's the only thing that determines whether you will join mage's guild, fighter's guild, or thieve's guild - which IMO is streamlined popamole garbage, make real factions, not generic cookie-cutter guilds.

Oh, btw, Skyrim does away with fighters and mages guild. Great incline.

This isn't even mentioning how joining a guild affects the dispotion of rival/allied guild members

Nothing you can't effortlessly fix with bribing, in the exceedingly rare event it affects anything beyond a snarky greeting and "I won't tell you about Tel Naga because you're sickening outlander n'wa, but please be welcome into House Telvanni as a full member and go do this quest on my master's behalf".

There's even some cases where guild quests conflict and prevent you from advancing in one or the other

There isn't any, you will always advance to full leader.

Sure it's not perfect, but like I said it's at least an attempt. Skyrim had 9 years to advance the formulae but instead totally scrapped it altogether.

It's not merely perfect, it's a mess of broken systems and poorly-implemented concepts. There were RPGs that did all of this better than Morrowind and came out at the same time, or earlier (fucking Gothic anyone?) so it's not like being released 9 years ago somehow obliged Bethesda at doing such a poor job.

You can't become the leader of opposing great houses or opposing vampire clans in Morrowind either...

Great success!