Fallout Is Fallout: New Vegas a worthy Fallout game?

[9ted6]

I could pass off the total lack of direction in the plot once you kill Benny with the game trying to be freeform. After all, there's really no reason you should do anything but the main quest in any other Fallout game. By playing an RPG, you're implicitly agreeing to be engaged in random side shit on your own accord. The problem is Lonesome Road comes along and gives the Courier a fairly hard backstory that you have no control over, dictated by Avellone's DMNPC who you can't refute or argue with, so suddenly the misdirection can only be explained with amnesia, and the Courier's no longer a blank slate of your choosing, they're a specific character who did specific things and is evil because Avellone said so and is forced to launch nukes at two major factions unless you follow a very specific companion path.

 

[Lemming42]

After all, there's really no reason you should do anything but the main quest in any other Fallout game. By playing an RPG, you're implicitly agreeing to be engaged in random side shit on your own accord.

I think it stands out worse in New Vegas because the main quests of the other games are inherently freeform - finding the Water Chip/GECK/Dad means that you'll necessarily have to talk to as many people as you can and look everywhere, which naturally results in you being embroiled in each settlement's drama. Fo3 falls apart in the second half after the first Purifier visit, but at least you've been exiled from the vault by that point, so you literally don't have any choice other than to continue to live in the Wasteland in some kind of capacity, which gives you enough of an excuse to go wandering around.

Perhaps the problem with New Vegas' attempt at being freeform is that you're not only not searching for anything after you find Benny, but you're also not trapped by circumstance. The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One can't return home because their homes are doomed if their quest fails, so they have no alternative other than to keep going. The Fo3 protag can't return home because they've been explicitly barred from doing so, both before and after the return to Vault 101 quest, so they're stuck in the Wasteland. There's no obvious way out for any of them, even if they did want to abandon the main quests. But in New Vegas, there's nothing at all in-universe stopping the Courier from just going back to California or moving on somewhere else. You can even visit the checkpoint back to California, which is an invisible wall.

The protags of Fo1-Fo3 pretty much have their hands forced, and it makes sense for them to continue no matter how they might personally feel any about what's happening (and you can often express anger or reluctance about the main quest in dialogue, especially in Fo2 and Fo3), but the Courier has to be actively and willingly invested in having a wildly outsized role in shaping the future of the Mojave in a way that most normal people probably wouldn't be. Combined with the limp, character-less dialogue options you have, it really stands out that the Courier is a videogame protagonist and a device for the player to see more of the game world, rather than an actual believable person who exists organically in the setting.

It's always reflected in the way you're treated as well - people in-universe act in ridiculous ways to accomodate the Courier. In addition to every faction immediately deciding to trust you and make you their top agent in the main quest, there's shit like the Primm mission. Lt Hayes can't get troops to reinforce Primm, because the NCR's resources are stretched too thin. But wait! A random postman/postwoman who isn't even in the NCR and who nobody has ever seen before just walked into Mojave Outpost and demanded more troops, so Major Knight immediately acquiesces and does as he's told, and Primm ends up just like the Courier wanted, about forty minutes after they first arrived.

 

[Zombra]

Fun fact, I "finished" a New Vegas playthrough in the middle of the game after my character had fulfilled all their goals and didn't want to work with any of the major factions any more. Good times.

 

[Zanthia]

New Vegas basically offers you two routes - do what everyone's telling you to do and circle through the south of the map, or just decide that you're going to walk directly to the big lights that you can see in the distance, in which case the game throws a bunch of beefgates up in a desperate attempt to get you to turn back.

As far as I remember, everyone in Goodsprings and Primm doesn't encourage you to go to Vegas to find Benny but to go south which is the way he went (the problem here is that according to what I've seen as the canon timeline (from the guide?) this was like a fortnight ago, you'd have no chance of catching him! But if you imagine it as just a few days because of the magic of stimpaks it's not so bad). I think Cass is the first who suggests that he sounds like he's from the Strip. If that's right then you are basically halfway and going to have more fun going forwards than backwards.

I think in FO2 you can find out about Navarro pretty early and try and head there and get very easily Enclave squaded to death in your first playthrough. It's a lot better than withholding information to the point of ridiculous or some kind of "... you just can't go there yet", so I like it in both cases.

But the only real motivation the Courier has is being a mercenary. And your backstory indicates that you're that way inclined, sure, but it's also suggested that you're a wanderer who drifts around a lot, and suddenly becoming a major political figure just feels jarring to me. It's also far more responsibility than you get in the other games - Fallout 1 is entirely about saving the Vault, even when you're seeking Mariposa. Fallout 2 is entirely about saving the village, you only end up on the Oil Rig because the Encalve give you no choice. Fallout 3 is about trying to start the purifier (and, inexplicably, getting mad when the Enclave try to do just that), with the player being one part of a larger team. But New Vegas suddenly makes you into, probably, the single most important and influential person in the Mojave, in a way that has nothing really to do with your initial motivation to set out into the Wasteland, and relies on all the factions acting in pretty bizarre ways towards you.

All four of these characters start with a small goal: water chip, GECK, find your dad, find Benny. And they get a second one about saving the world along the way that they kind of stumble into. Once House has let you into the Lucky 38, the NCR and the Legion now have a potential assassin. They make you prove yourself a little first, but you're their only way to kill House. The Emily Ortal quest with the bug underlines what a big opportunity it is, and I think that one triggers really quickly.

So, like, presumably House's initial plan was to have Benny go to the Fort and activate the Platinum Chip. So Benny betrays him, and he... trusts the mailman instead? Someone who just walked into the room, who he knows nothing about, who his only connection to is that they were hired by some third party postal service?

I think there's a parallel with Boone's (hilarious) line about how he can only trust a stranger. House groomed Benny almost to be his successor. He needs someone out there, so who? Swank would be the obvious choice, and as the player/the Courier you find out that Swank is very loyal to House (for now at least), but how is House to know Swank wasn't in on the whole plot? And it has to be a Chairman, he doesn't like the Omertas or the White Gloves. Most other people are not on his radar, enemies, agoraphobes who probably hate him, etc. House many or may not know the Courier on any level but he knows they're determined, at least. (He seems to see you as a real professional who can't leave a package undelivered, which is weird but fits his lack of human feeling, and is more reason for him to trust his conception of you - also considering how Benny's whole thing is to violently overthrow his boss and it's how his relationship with House started, House isn't a great judge of character.)

Johnson Nash, the manager of the Mojave Express, also doesn't know who you are or recognise you - the Platinum Chip was presumably your first job with them.

This is the most bizarre thing because Lonesome Road goes on to imply that not only have you worked with the Mojave Express for years, you're well known enough that another courier has massive beef with you. I almost feel like it was done so that people could imagine this was their Courier's first job gone horribly wrong if they wanted to, but then what's with Lonesome Road?

The problem is Lonesome Road comes along and gives the Courier a fairly hard backstory that you have no control over, dictated by Avellone's DMNPC who you can't refute or argue with, so suddenly the misdirection can only be explained with amnesia, and the Courier's no longer a blank slate of your choosing, they're a specific character who did specific things and is evil because Avellone said so and is forced to launch nukes at random people unless you follow a very specific companion path.

I'm sure Avellone's intention was that Ulysses is telling the truth, but there's no indication anywhere in the game, even in that DLC. The most satisfying explanation is that Ulysses himself blew it up (the whole divide - I don't even believe that there was a town as nobody mentions it) either accidentally the way he accuses you of doing, on Legion orders, or as a really bad attempt to hamper the Legion.

Perhaps the problem with New Vegas' attempt at being freeform is that you're not only not searching for anything after you find Benny, but you're also not trapped by circumstance. The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One can't return home because their homes are doomed if their quest fails, so they have no alternative other than to keep going. The Fo3 protag can't return home because they've been explicitly barred from doing so, both before and after the return to Vault 101 quest, so they're stuck in the Wasteland. There's no obvious way out for any of them, even if they did want to abandon the main quests. But in New Vegas, there's nothing at all in-universe stopping the Courier from just going back to California or moving on somewhere else. You can even visit the checkpoint back to California, which is an invisible wall.

This is the same for all of them - I especially don't see how FO3 is different (you were driven from your home, they killed a close family friend, you find out your whole life was a lie, and 19 is a good time to leave home even without all of that). They could just leave and go to Boston like it seems most of the characters eventually did - they aren't trapped by anything other than being the main character. In FO1 at that crucial moment where you can return home, you don't even have player control any more. In FO2 I guess you can attempt to take the GECK home and then decide "those guys are probably all dead and I'm just hallucinating" but... why would you. The Courier is unusual amongst these characters because one is canonically a teenager and the other two are best played as teenagers or early 20s, but the Courier's optional life experiences suggest an older character. They don't need to be prevented from going home to not feel a need to.

 

[Lemming42]

All four of these characters start with a small goal: water chip, GECK, find your dad, find Benny. And they get a second one about saving the world along the way that they kind of stumble into. Once House has let you into the Lucky 38, the NCR and the Legion now have a potential assassin. They make you prove yourself a little first, but you're their only way to kill House. The Emily Ortal quest with the bug underlines what a big opportunity it is, and I think that one triggers really quickly.

I think they contact you right after you leave The Tops, even if you haven't visited the Lucky 38, but I might be wrong on that (and the game does clearly expect you to visit the Lucky 38 first), so unless they've got more intel on House, they don't necessarily know that you've been given free access to House's "I'm In Here Please Don't Press The Switch That Kills Me" room.

Even if they want you to assassinate House, you'd think they'd have a few more precautions than "eh s/he looks alright, let's set up a face-to-face meeting immediately and entrust them with vital duties". Especially if you've already attacked NCR/Legion forces prior to reaching the Strip. There's definitely a very good potential plot premise there, in the idea that you're being played by factions for their own ends and they're grudgingly forced to work with you because you're in a very unique position, but it doesn't really come across that way in-game IMO. It comes across as almost the opposite - you're playing the factions who dumbly invite you into their most sensitive bases of operations and tell you everything, despite sending assassins after you 24 hours earlier.

I think there's a parallel with Boone's (hilarious) line about how he can only trust a stranger. House groomed Benny almost to be his successor. He needs someone out there, so who? Swank would be the obvious choice, and as the player/the Courier you find out that Swank is very loyal to House (for now at least), but how is House to know Swank wasn't in on the whole plot? And it has to be a Chairman, he doesn't like the Omertas or the White Gloves. Most other people are not on his radar, enemies, agoraphobes who probably hate him, etc. House many or may not know the Courier on any level but he knows they're determined, at least. (He seems to see you as a real professional who can't leave a package undelivered, which is weird but fits his lack of human feeling, and is more reason for him to trust his conception of you - also considering how Benny's whole thing is to violently overthrow his boss and it's how his relationship with House started, House isn't a great judge of character.)

You can read it as House being dimwitted and overconfident, which is definitely an aspect of his character, but it still feels very thinly justified to me. The Platinum Chip is so central to his plans, and he's never met you before. He groomed Benny for years for the job that he gives you the instant you walk in. It's not even like you have to prove yourself or convince him; you can spend the whole conversation saying you don't understand what's going on and that you're not interested and he'll still conclude by entrusting you with the lynchpin of his entire plan.

If he's been tracking your progress, he could conclude that you're determined, but he also has no real reason to suspect you're a cool-headed professional who can be relied on to follow instructions - you've probably already defied either the Legion or NCR by this point, not to mention gotten an old woman shot in the head in Novac, potentially betrayed the Bright ghouls, handed over Primm to one of House's main competitors, joined and then betrayed Goodsprings and/or the Powder Gangers, etc. You can carve a path of complete lunacy across the Wasteland and everyone still trips over themselves to trust you with their lives and their top-secret plans the instant the second act starts.

This is the same for all of them - I especially don't see how FO3 is different (you were driven from your home, they killed a close family friend, you find out your whole life was a lie, and 19 is a good time to leave home even without all of that). They could just leave and go to Boston like it seems most of the characters eventually did - they aren't trapped by anything other than being the main character. In FO1 at that crucial moment where you can return home, you don't even have player control any more. In FO2 I guess you can attempt to take the GECK home and then decide "those guys are probably all dead and I'm just hallucinating" but... why would you. The Courier is unusual amongst these characters because one is canonically a teenager and the other two are best played as teenagers or early 20s, but the Courier's optional life experiences suggest an older character. They don't need to be prevented from going home to not feel a need to.

I'd say you still have some kind of reasonable motivation to be involved when the save the world stuff starts in Fo1 and Fo2. Fo2 is easy - the villagers have been abducted, including your own mother. There do have to obviously be some concessions in these plots - you're right in that there's no reason given why the Fo3 protag can't just leave Washington entirely for example - but I think "save all your friends and family" is a broad enough motivation that it'll cover the overwhelming majority of characters.

Fo3 is definitely harder to justify after the first Purifier visit, especially since the BoS never seem to actually pay you for doing everything for them. As far as I remember, the only justifications the Lone Wanderer can give in dialogue are "i want to continue Dad's work" and "the Purifier will be a boon for the Wasteland", which are definitely flimsy as fuck. In New Vegas though you're never really given any reason to stick around, nor can the Courier state a reason in dialogue. Unless you're playing a very specific person who both works as a low-paid postal worker and loves to wander but also has a keen ambition to become a major political figure and determine the entire future of a society, the only real reason the game has for the Courier to get involved in the main quest is that s/he's controlled by you, the player, and you want to do more quests because they're fun.

And the effect is amplified by all NPCs seeming to have this knowledge, immediately trusting you despite you showing no trustworthiness and giving you an endless stream of high-stakes missions that you're logically not suited for. The plot in Fo1, Fo2 and Fo3 might treat you as a videogame protagonist, but at least most NPCs still show indifference, distrust or hostility towards you, and the games often let you alienate them enough to lock yourself out of content.

 

[Butter]

Nobody mentions the fact that Fallout new vegas is famous for showing in dialogue, speech checks completely butchering the concept introduced in Fallout 1, as a button-awesome now.

I've taken the game to task for that multiple times on this forum. Rusty used to do it as well. IDK what anyone else has said. The advantage New Vegas's system has over Fallout 1 is that you get joke options when your skill isn't high enough.

Besides, the dialogues are nowhere near as deep as Fallout 1 and even 2 because at least in those games, you had the possibility to piss off the NPC so bad it would automatically enable a fight.

New Vegas has a few dialogues like this, e.g. with Lanius.

In New Vegas, you are the chosen one, everyone is nice and easy to you.

No, this is bullshit. You're a nobody. You're lucky enough to be assigned the platinum chip delivery, but "luck" in this instance entails getting shot in the head and only barely surviving. After that, you have to earn being treated well. When the NCR line up to suck your dick, it's because you have an in with Mr. House. When you meet Caesar, he rattles off your exploits, showing that he's impressed. And unless you side with Yes Man, you're always working for somebody else. It's like being the Champion of Cyrodiil next to Martin Septim, not the Dragonborn.

It's always reflected in the way you're treated as well - people in-universe act in ridiculous ways to accomodate the Courier. In addition to every faction immediately deciding to trust you and make you their top agent in the main quest, there's shit like the Primm mission. Lt Hayes can't get troops to reinforce Primm, because the NCR's resources are stretched too thin. But wait! A random postman/postwoman who isn't even in the NCR and who nobody has ever seen before just walked into Mojave Outpost and demanded more troops, so Major Knight immediately acquiesces and does as he's told, and Primm ends up just like the Courier wanted, about forty minutes after they first arrived.

You have to pass a Barter check or do a quest for Major Knight in order to succeed. How is this a problem?

 

[Lemming42]

You have to pass a Barter check or do a quest for Major Knight in order to succeed. How is this a problem?

From a quest design standpoint, it's not a problem. From a worldbuilding standpoint, quite a bit:
- You're a random civilian. Hayes, an NCR Lieutenant, telling you that it's up to you to find out what to do with Primm is ridiculous. The NCR look inert. They can't wipe out the gangsters in Primm with a whole squad, but you can do it solo. After the gangsters are wiped out, Hayes sits around waiting for your instructions. He's a Lieutenant in the army, you are a civilian.

- Hayes has been told by the NCR that the troops simply aren't available to take Primm, despite the fact that it's said to be of value to the NCR. With one relatively easy Barter check, Major Knight can be convinced otherwise. By you, a civilian he's never seen before and who has no relation to the NCR.

So, thus far in this quest, we've met two NCR people. A Lieutenant who asks you to do his job for him, and a Major who does as he's told as long as you pass one simple speech check, the dialogue of which is you telling him something he already knows.

- After this point, you walk back to Hayes. Hayes then asks you if it's okay with you for him to take over Primm with the new troops that you convinced Knight to send. The in-game reason for this is that it gives the player a last chance to decide to put someone else in instead... but it makes no sense. The troops are ready. Hayes has received word on the radio. Why is he waiting for your permission??? Who are you? You're nobody, you're a postal worker who isn't in the NCR, why is Hayes asking you what to do?!

- While this is happening, everyone in Primm stands around indoors waiting for your decision. They have suggestions, but they all agree that it's up to you, someone who does not live in Primm and who they've never seen before and who has no reputation, to decide their fate, and they'll all gladly go along with whatever your call is.

- As a bonus bit of fun, you can install anyone else other than the NCR, and Hayes will sit and watch as Primm is lost before his very eyes.

Overall it just makes the NCR look comically inert, a trend they maintain for the entire game. It also establishes the Courier as the most important person around and someone who calls the shots and who NPCs will rarely object to the life-changing decisions of, a trend that also continues for the whole game.

There must have been a way to write this quest that doesn't immediately position the Courier as someone who can order NCR officers around while they sit around aimlessly waiting to be told what to do. They could at least make it so that the people of Primm have strong opinions and try to influence (or force) you one way or the other. They could at least make it so that the NCR have something to say about you walking in and telling them that you, a random stranger who's passing through, have made your decision on the future of Primm and that you expect them to follow it at once.

 

[9ted6]

I think it's explained with Myers that the NCR use his pardon as leverage to get the town's cooperation, but it's weird that the NCR wouldn't just take over the town at some point if Slimm becomes sheriff. Maybe that's just because Slimm's a chad. It's also weird that even with all the Convicts dead, Primm's townsfolk still hang out inside the casino and never leave. It's not like their town's in a particularly dangerous area. If I recall there was a cut Legion option too where they come in and kick out the NCR.

 

[Sigourn]

Didn't really notice it until my most recent playthrough, but the game really does lose all sense of pace as soon as you leave Boulder City. There's nothing really guiding you from 188 to the Strip, just relatively empty space. Granted, you'll likely stumble upon Camp McCaran on the way, but otherwise it's just total deadweight.

My criticism towards this has more to do with the empty space rather than the lack of a narrative hook. The hook is already there: you are out to find Benny. Makes little difference if there's empty space between you, or 20 towns.

But gameplay-wise, it is very much shit. There's very little content in between.

 

[laclongquan]

But that's my point - your business with Benny concludes at the end of the first act. There's no particularly convincing reason for you to even be in the Mojave after that point, let alone singlehandedly deciding its entire future.

Seeking Benny works perfectly as a motivation for the first act, but as soon as you step out of The Tops after the confrontation, nothing you do has any clear motive and nobody treats you in a way that makes sense. You're House's top agent and he's trusting you with the culmination of centuries of work despite having just met you, Caesar wants you to personally come and work for him despite you showing no interest in doing so (and this is after he's potentially sent assassins after you), and the NCR inexplicably decide that they like the cut of your jib and that you should be put in charge of extremely key operations that could determine their hold on the entire Mojave. You're an anonymous postal worker who arrived in the Mojave under a week ago.

It's like if I - as in literally just me, RPGCodex user Lemming42 - flew to Russia on holiday, got kicked in the balls at the airport, and spent three days finding the man responsible so I could kick him back. Then, as soon as I kick this random nobody in the balls, I turn round to discover official envoys sent by Vladimir Putin and Volodomyr Zelensky, both inviting me to urgent personal meetings to discuss my plans for the future of Ukraine, and both trusting me with state secrets vital to turning the tide of the war. And then Biden sends a messenger telling me that I'm also invited to be in charge of the US response.

Let's take one simplest scenario: You get to The Tops ASAP, didnt dawdle much in the wasteland. Thus you dont do much to aggravate or please NCR/Legion.

In which case, you are a Courier who potentially in possession of something that can activate an army of robots which can change power balance in the area. This is not everyone's knowledge, by the way, since everyone in the know has own reason to keep it quiet
+++ Thus yes, Courier Six is someone worth a meeting to the Embassador or Caesar. Just for that reason alone.

This scenario doesnt deal with something deep like background of Six, or anything in the past.

See? VERY SIMPLE to see why top honcho of both factions want to meet you.

 

[Lemming42]

But you don't necessarily have the Platinum Chip - if you don't kill Benny, then Caesar has the Chip, having taken it after capturing Benny.

The only thing special about you is that House is (stupidly) willing to let you into his penthouse, which the NCR and Legion potentially aren't even aware of, and which you may not have even done at that point if you chose to go to The Tops on your own without consulting House.

iirc, Ambassador Crocker doesn't even mention the Chip or House when you first walk in after getting his message. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he just tells you that you're now - for no reason at all - the NCR's envoy to the Boomers, because "we could use your help". He does this even if you've killed every NCR soldier you've met until that point, or done nothing of note and are literally just a random unremarkable civilian postal worker.

Caesar has similarly bad dialogue if you ask him why he's trusting you, a random (or potentially outright hostile) stranger with the Chip:

COURIER: Can't your Legionaries take care of this?
CAESAR: Yes. But then I'd have to kill them.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Caesar, a bumbling retard? Who knew?

 

[ind33d]

It WOULD be a good Fallout, but it got cucked by so many things that it just never made it there. Unlucky situation, redeemed by the shown potential and carried by massive patting on the back from many fans.

I gambled on the Strip until they kicked me out then bought plasma weapons and gunned down everyone within earshot of the Hoover Dam before beating Lanius with a speech check. New Vegas is incredible

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

AFAIK New Vegas was going to originally include an option to leave the Mojave after finishing the Platinum Chip quest, but it was cut. Which is a pity, because AFAIK only Geneforge 2 ever included the option to leave the gameworld at any point in time.

I think the most "natural" main quest to follow is Mr. House's, because its essentially doing jobs for Mr. House, just like you were when you were just to deliver the Chip. Its pretty much "hey do you want another job? The next one pays even better."

With the NCR, you are likely their favorite dude in the wasteland by now (unless you did all those quests previously in naughty-naughty ways), but your contact with the Legion by now has likely been 99% hostility of some sort and you have seen the Legion do and be nothing more than total assholes. The Legion won't attack you on sight, which is later explained on by the fact many Couriers are actually Frumentarii but you really can't go and DO things for the Legion until a good while into the game, which is lame but we all know how FNV has a dearth of Legion content.

AFAIK the reason NCR and Caesar both put massive chips on you is because the Courier did something no one else ever did - entered the Lucky 38. Everyone saw you enter and leave the Lucky 38. Which means:
- Courier's a VIP by default
- If the Courier can enter the Lucky 38, the Courier might be able to enter it again
- If you can enter the Lucky 38, then you can kill Mr. House. Which both paths will demand of you at some point.

Mr. House is one of the main reasons for the current stalemate in New Vegas, and both NCR and Legion need him gone to advance their plans.

Re: Ulysses. Pretty sure the whole thing is done in a way so that Ulysses can also be absolutely delusional. He's pretty delusional in the first place. "I'm going to nuke everyone because you exploded my home". Uh, dude, what? A normal person would just ambush the Courier at night when nobody is looking and waste him. Then again, I think its implied Ulysses knew the chip job was going to get you killed - because he refused it ("Let Courier Six carry it").

I saw a pretty good analysis somewhere on the net, leddit I think:

First of all I think an important thing to note is that while Avellone does generally use his villains as mouthpieces for his controversial opinions about the work they're in, he knows full well that most people don't share those views and thus tends to write these characters as extremely flawed hypocrites who the player is encouraged to view as being in the wrong, though that doesn't always work - see many players assuming he legitimately considered Kreia the "real hero" of KOTOR 2 and wrote her as such, when really he wrote her as an exploration of his past frustrations with Star Wars and has her repeatedly fail in her goals due to her own hubris (I could do a fuckin' essay on Kreia and fan misconceptions of her, honestly).

Ulysses is very much an example of this; he's a mouthpiece for Avellone's frustration with how Fallout 2 made the series start feeling less apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic and embodies his opinion that it should have a "second apocalypse" that resets the setting back to its roots, but because he knows most people love the NCR that opinion is displayed as being utterly psychotic and coming from a mentally-unhinged murderer. Ulysses has serious paranoia and delusions, particularly regarding the Courier and Hopeville, which cloud his judgement quite a bit.

So, his ultimate goal. Despite what you seem to think I don't recall that he actually plans to nuke the Legion; he seems to retain some fondness for them despite his overall bitterness about how they treated his tribe and how foolhardy Caesar and his commanders can be (in his eyes, at least). IIRC no matter your alignment his plan is to nuke the NCR, since no matter what it'll fuck over your faction of choice to some degree - though in the Legion path, he sort of seems to think he's doing the Legion a favor by denying them the chance to conquer NCR, and is more focused on how you want to help them conquer NCR and he's denying you that glory since he thinks it's a stupid idea that will destroy the Legion in the long run.

His shtick is that he's disillusioned with all the major powers, especially the way they ape ancient societies rather than building something new. He resents the Legion for aping Rome (and for destroying his tribe), he resents the NCR for aping the United States (seeing as they're the ones that destroyed the world), he resents House for being the literal embodiment of old world corporations, and the one place he saw a future in was Hopeville. Sure, they had adopted an old-world symbol like those other guys, but unlike them they were giving it a new meaning rather than trying to recapture old glory.

It's heavily implied to be a bit of an irrational fixation on his part; Hopeville probably wasn't really anything special, just a place he was really fond of and thus assigned more importance than it really had, due to his aforementioned delusions. And when the Courier inadvertently destroyed it, he became fucking livid and obsessed with the Courier. Especially since part of his delusions about Hopeville involved viewing the Courier as a sort of mythical founding figure of the place, due to how their frequent deliveries in the area helped it grow back in the day.

The fact that the Courier not only doesn't realize how important they were to the people of Hopeville (to them it was just another gig in a long list of gigs), but doesn't realize that they were indirectly responsible for destroying it thanks to their final delivery - that pisses Ulysses off, since the thing he hates most is people being ignorant of the past and the effects their actions have on the world. So he studied the Courier. And he realized, this person has invested a lot into the war between the NCR and the Legion, regardless of the side they chose. "Wouldn't it just destroy that asshole, who inadvertently destroyed the thing I loved most with nukes, to have the same thing happen to them?"

The ending where you talk him down is essentially you convincing him both that he shouldn't be disillusioned with your faction of choice and their current ambitions, and that he's also repeating the mistakes of the past by doing precisely what you did to Hopeville, but knowingly for petty revenge. This convinces him to end his nuclear ambitions for the NCR and begrudgingly forgive you, deciding to trust your judgement and place his faith in whichever faction you're backing - or in you if you're going Wildcard.

 

[Old One]

For me, lack of motivation was a much bigger problem than lack of direction. Eventually I had to ask, "Why am I even playing this game anymore?" I lost interest and quit.

I kept thinking of Gothic 1 and how much more motivated I was just because I wanted to pay back the dick who punched me in the face.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

following mr house is the "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" way

 

[deuxhero]

AFAIK New Vegas was going to originally include an option to leave the Mojave after finishing the Platinum Chip quest, but it was cut. Which is a pity, because AFAIK only Geneforge 2 ever included the option to leave the gameworld at any point in time.

Acquire games have it due to how they encourage NG+ cycles and sidequests. All Way of the Samurai and Akiba's Trip games have the option to just leave the game area. The Metal Max/Metal Saga series has some endings where your character agrees to retire, many of which can be taken up at any time by just backtracking and agreeing.

 

[Butter]

following mr house is the "you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" way

Mr. House is rule by the 1%, same as NCR except without the theater of democracy.

 

[Zombra]

I gambled on the Strip until they kicked me out then bought plasma weapons and gunned down everyone within earshot of the Hoover Dam before beating Lanius with a speech check. New Vegas is incredible

The RPG equivalent of "I love this driving game, the physics are so bad, look how I can crash cars and they go flying unrealistically, it's so funny, great game"

 

[Modron]

FlatOut 2 was pretty fun yes.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

...
I saw a pretty good analysis somewhere on the net, leddit I think:

First of all I think an important thing to note is that while Avellone does generally use his villains as mouthpieces for his controversial opinions about the work they're in, he knows full well that most people don't share those views and thus tends to write these characters as extremely flawed hypocrites who the player is encouraged to view as being in the wrong, though that doesn't always work - see many players assuming he legitimately considered Kreia the "real hero" of KOTOR 2 and wrote her as such, when really he wrote her as an exploration of his past frustrations with Star Wars and has her repeatedly fail in her goals due to her own hubris (I could do a fuckin' essay on Kreia and fan misconceptions of her, honestly).

Ulysses is very much an example of this; he's a mouthpiece for Avellone's frustration with how Fallout 2 made the series start feeling less apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic and embodies his opinion that it should have a "second apocalypse" that resets the setting back to its roots, but because he knows most people love the NCR that opinion is displayed as being utterly psychotic and coming from a mentally-unhinged murderer. Ulysses has serious paranoia and delusions, particularly regarding the Courier and Hopeville, which cloud his judgement quite a bit.
...

For the Fallout series to remain post-apocalyptic, rather than advance to a post-post-apocalyptic setting, the sequel would either have been set in a different location from the first game --- permitting a cruder, more tenuous existence regardless of the date --- or the time would have been incremented by a much smaller amount than the 80 (!) years between the original and Fallout 2.

This also implies that Chris Avellone is happier with the Fallout 3 setting, which depicts the area around Washington DC as a wasteland broken only by a few scattered settlements, than with either Fallout 2 or Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

It's been seven hard years since I voted here. I've been through a lot and realized a lot.

So I'm changing my vote from "It's better than Bethesda's attempts, but still doesn't live up to the originals" to "No".

 

[9ted6]

...
I saw a pretty good analysis somewhere on the net, leddit I think:

First of all I think an important thing to note is that while Avellone does generally use his villains as mouthpieces for his controversial opinions about the work they're in, he knows full well that most people don't share those views and thus tends to write these characters as extremely flawed hypocrites who the player is encouraged to view as being in the wrong, though that doesn't always work - see many players assuming he legitimately considered Kreia the "real hero" of KOTOR 2 and wrote her as such, when really he wrote her as an exploration of his past frustrations with Star Wars and has her repeatedly fail in her goals due to her own hubris (I could do a fuckin' essay on Kreia and fan misconceptions of her, honestly).

Ulysses is very much an example of this; he's a mouthpiece for Avellone's frustration with how Fallout 2 made the series start feeling less apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic and embodies his opinion that it should have a "second apocalypse" that resets the setting back to its roots, but because he knows most people love the NCR that opinion is displayed as being utterly psychotic and coming from a mentally-unhinged murderer. Ulysses has serious paranoia and delusions, particularly regarding the Courier and Hopeville, which cloud his judgement quite a bit.
...

For the Fallout series to remain post-apocalyptic, rather than advance to a post-post-apocalyptic setting, the sequel would either have been set in a different location from the first game --- permitting a cruder, more tenuous existence regardless of the date --- or the time would have been incremented by a much smaller amount than the 80 (!) years between the original and Fallout 2.

This also implies that Chris Avellone is happier with the Fallout 3 setting, which depicts the area around Washington DC as a wasteland broken only by a few scattered settlements, than with either Fallout 2 or Fallout: New Vegas.

That's why New Vegas's writing was screwed both ways. You either have to put up with Avellone and his weird self-hatred of Fallout and obsession with making the wasteland empty and desolate, and him pseudily ranting at you via Ulysses, or you have to put up with Sawyer and his cuckamemey leddit bullshit and wokeism preaching. You have two guys who pretty much hate Fallout for different reasons and see it in wildly different ways, and you're pigeonholed into one camp or the other. You have to go hear Cass talk about how much she loves dick, cuz strong woman, and how everyone in the Mojave also loves dick, cuz inclusion, or you have to go hear Ulysses spew meaningless dialogue about Tunnelers and how the whole world's fucked because I'm smarter than you because I just am now nuke the fucking Legion/NCR/everyone dammit.

 

[GrafvonMoltke]

Ulysses could be cut from the game and it would be much better for it

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

...
I saw a pretty good analysis somewhere on the net, leddit I think:

First of all I think an important thing to note is that while Avellone does generally use his villains as mouthpieces for his controversial opinions about the work they're in, he knows full well that most people don't share those views and thus tends to write these characters as extremely flawed hypocrites who the player is encouraged to view as being in the wrong, though that doesn't always work - see many players assuming he legitimately considered Kreia the "real hero" of KOTOR 2 and wrote her as such, when really he wrote her as an exploration of his past frustrations with Star Wars and has her repeatedly fail in her goals due to her own hubris (I could do a fuckin' essay on Kreia and fan misconceptions of her, honestly).

Ulysses is very much an example of this; he's a mouthpiece for Avellone's frustration with how Fallout 2 made the series start feeling less apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic and embodies his opinion that it should have a "second apocalypse" that resets the setting back to its roots, but because he knows most people love the NCR that opinion is displayed as being utterly psychotic and coming from a mentally-unhinged murderer. Ulysses has serious paranoia and delusions, particularly regarding the Courier and Hopeville, which cloud his judgement quite a bit.
...

For the Fallout series to remain post-apocalyptic, rather than advance to a post-post-apocalyptic setting, the sequel would either have been set in a different location from the first game --- permitting a cruder, more tenuous existence regardless of the date --- or the time would have been incremented by a much smaller amount than the 80 (!) years between the original and Fallout 2.

This also implies that Chris Avellone is happier with the Fallout 3 setting, which depicts the area around Washington DC as a wasteland broken only by a few scattered settlements, than with either Fallout 2 or Fallout: New Vegas.

That's why New Vegas's writing was screwed both ways. You either have to put up with Avellone and his weird self-hatred of Fallout and obsession with making the wasteland empty and desolate, and him pseudily ranting at you via Ulysses, or you have to put up with Sawyer and his cuckamemey leddit bullshit and wokeism preaching. You have two guys who pretty much hate Fallout for different reasons and see it in wildly different ways, and you're pigeonholed into one camp or the other. You have to go hear Cass talk about how much she loves dick, cuz strong woman, and how everyone in the Mojave also loves dick, cuz inclusion, or you have to go hear Ulysses spew meaningless dialogue about Tunnelers and how the whole world's fucked because I'm smarter than you because I just am now nuke the fucking Legion/NCR/everyone dammit.

Oh man, newfags these days!