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1eyedking Isometric gameplay can't hold a candle to first person real-time

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
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Messages
56,648
While it is arguable whether immersion is measured entirely by the degree in which a game successfully imitates real life, to confine our experience of reality solely on how we perceive our surroundings is where the fallacy with the modern notion of "experience" in gaming lies. Human beings are conceptual creatures, they are not just walking sense machines. This very conversation is a primary example of a type of interaction which does not hinge on sense perception as its entire raison d'etre. It is this conceptual dimension which defines not only how we interact with the world but even how we define our very subjective experience of it. A primary example of the fallacy of reducing experience to sense feedback alone can be seen in a game like Trespasser, specifically, the infamous Trespasser arm. The notion of an actual appendage by which we can physically interact with our virtual environment in a game may make sense on paper, but in practice the experience was extremely unrealistic. See, while it is true that we interact with our physical surroundings using physical appendages, our actual subjective experience of this interaction is a far cry with the type of shit we had to deal with in the game, when even picking a simple object was a struggle. See, when i pick shit up in real life, my subjective experience of it does not include being constantly aware of the physical properties of my arm. The act is so natural, so effortless that my subjective experience is actually similar to that of a game where picking stuff up is as simple as pushing a button.

But like i said, there is far more to interacting with reality than simple sense perception. The experience of commandeering an army, the experience of thinking up strategies and employ tactics, goes far beyond mere sense feedback. Much of the work of a general is purely conceptual in nature, and in many cases a commander doesn't even see the actual battles he wages. And it is this aspect of strategy and decision making that is simulated in a turn based war game for instance. And in this case you cannot even argue that it is merely because of the limitations inherent in the process of game making that we cannot emulate every single aspect of the experience of being a general, all though that is also part of the problem and the reason games have to specialize in the type of experience they want to offer, of which aspect of our interaction with reality they want to focus on. In such a game, you don't want to experience everything a general experiences during the course of his career a priori, for that would be absurd and at any rate completely besides the point. The entire idea is precisely that of allowing a person to engage in that aspect of strategy and decision making in and of itself. Everything else would simply be an actual hindrance to the experience. What do i care about actually watching scenes of soldiers marching into battle when all i want to do is think up strategies and enact tactics? If i wanted to experience that, i'd play a completely different game, but according to your argument, my desire to single out the mere conceptual elements of being a general while eschewing any experience based on sense feedback is retrograde and a primitive way of looking at gaming as an entertainment form. As if people were playing shit like Risk before video games were invented simply because they secretively wanted to drive a Panzer tank, but couldn't. But lo, now that video games have evolved enough, we can (sort of), so away with Risk! Away with all those boring strategy games. Now we can just don our Oculus Rift headset and actually experience what it is like to be a general for the first time. Behold the amazing first person visuals as your eyes are fixed on a mahogany table as your incredibly articulated digital arm pushes pawns on a cloth map, just like a real general would! Such progress, much immurshun. :roll:
 
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CreamyBlood

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,392
I'm a HUGE fan of deeper core concept. I used to like FPS's too, back when they were fun.

Now my only deeper core concept is Arma II. :(
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
13,056
I am a Deus Ex modder (among other games) and I go by the same name here as I do on the Eidos forums.
What are the mods that you worked on? Would be interesting to see if your talk of interactivity translates well into your designs.

Also, sorry, but no. It took me years to actually get used and feel interested in the FP perspective (thankfully Unreal and M&M6 got me there), until then I found it completely unintuitive and unattractive. Same goes for a whole bunch of people that I know - and no, I don't set up my acquaintances by walking up to people and asking, "Hey, what are your feelings about perspective in computer games?". My recent ex had the same issue - she could play anything if it was TP or ISO, but never an FP game, and yes, she was fucking "immersed". I was fucking "immersed" playing Fallout 2, and probably actually immersed when playing Torment. I'm getting good vibes when playing D: OS now, and hoo boy, the interactivity there is rather unmatched by stuff in modern gaming - only thing missing is an option to climb or jump.

Thing is, different genres and subgenres exist for a reason. If FP was THE best thing there was, the market would've been all over it, everything would be FP right now, nobody would disagree with what you say. But it's not. Same way the biopics are not the best single film genre, or bildungsroman isn't the best literary genre. Oh, and literary genres also have different perspectives, and while FP and TPO are the most common, it doesn't mean that they're automagically the best.

But yeah, you're welcome to up your post count some more by engaging in some nice Volournian school of conversing.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
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If FP was THE best thing there was, the market would've been all over it, everything would be FP right now, nobody would disagree with what you say. But it's not.
s.

Oh sure, the industry would be all over something that's considered good or "the best". They are doing that right now in fact. It's never been a better time to play video games. The mobile market has spawned many revolutionary classics, didn't you notice? I hear brown bro shooters and poorly designed RPGs shit all over the old school classics also.

Sarcasm aside, there's a reason occulus & other VR-related tech is focusing almost exclusively on first person. Did they just decide for no fucking reason that FP would be more suitable? No.
This said, there will always be a difference of opinion no matter the proposed facts, and there will always be certain game types not suited to first person. FP is just objectively superior for deep interaction, and realistically it should be for immersion too, but let's end this discussion right now before more butthurt occurs.

:smug:
 
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Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
13,056
If FP was THE best thing there was, the market would've been all over it, everything would be FP right now, nobody would disagree with what you say. But it's not.
s.

Oh sure, the industry would be all over something that's considered good or "the best". They are doing that right now in fact. It's never been a better time to play video games. The mobile market has spawned many revolutionary classics, didn't you notice? I hear brown bro shooters and poorly designed RPGs shit all over the old school classics also.
Why are you comparing good designs, or even mediocre designs, to something that's inherently shit? Oh yeah, let's compare Mona Lisa to 3-year-old's stick figures - see, oil painting is inherently superior to crayons. That's a wrong approach, though I suppose you're taking it intentionally. You should be comparing genuinely good FPs with high interactivity to genuinely good TP/ISO games with high interactivity. If you don't have experience with the latter, that's fine, but then you might as well not try to pass for an expert. Those exist. The fact that they're rarely made anymore doesn't mean that it's impossible, or that the result would be somehow "inferior". I mean, you mention broshooters, right? Much interactivity in that FP experience.

Sarcasm aside, there's a reason occulus & other VR-related tech is focusing almost exclusively on first person. Did they just decide for no fucking reason that FP would be more suitable? No.
Ummm. VR tech is by default designed as an FP experience. Once it develops far enough, it'll have its share of ISO, though I kinda doubt there'll be a lot of TP games in it because it's pretty fucking weird and largely pointless. ISOs though, sure. Feel free to quote me in 3 years when the market is full of TP shovelware to make me look very silly in hindsight.

This said, there will always be a difference of opinion no matter the proposed facts, and there will always be certain game types not suited to first person. FP is just objectively superior for deep interaction, and realistically it should be for immersion too, but let's end this discussion right now before more butthurt occurs.
Well, it's just that you don't offer actual facts, heck, you didn't even provide your DE mods for our pleasure.

Conversely, I'd love to be wrong about VRs ending up filled with "cinematic experiences" and instead be interactive cool stuff.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Well, it's just that you don't offer actual facts

I did. Go back a page or two where I described a superior form of interactivity.

Conversely, I'd love to be wrong about VRs ending up filled with "cinematic experiences" and instead be interactive cool stuff.

Wishful thinking for sure.
 
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Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Well, it's just that you don't offer actual facts

I did. Go back a page where I described a superior form of interactivity.
Mm, I read that when it was just posted, still disagree. I suppose I see where you're going with it, theoretically you have a chance for much more high-detail interactivity, shit you could do with just one room could be quite amazing, but I can't see neither AAA nor indies properly pulling this off for another decade or so.

Of existing games, best interactivity examples come from games like Deus Ex, where you get some forms of "emergent gameplay" via environmental manipulation and such. Still, while you have FP like DE and (gods have pity on your soul) Elder Scrolls, you also have TPs like Red Faction Guerilla (lots of environmental interaction within the genre's scope - destroy/rebuild entire buildings, what what); ISOs like Ultima Online, Divine Divinity/ Divinity: Original Sin that do interactivity pretty damn well - not in minute detail, of course, but if we look at DE and TES/F3NV, they do operate at a degree of abstraction as well. It just boils down to whether you can work with such abstractions or not, and how it translates in overall gameplay. Personally I'm "agnostic" when it comes to perspective, as long as the game is good in the end, each perspective has its strengths and weaknesses. Except that weird experiment with fixed 3rd person camera like in early Resident Evils and some other games like that - fuck that shit.

Overall, sadly, interactivity is sorely missing in all perspectives, whatever the case.

heck, you didn't even provide your DE mods for our pleasure.

Feel free to go over the feature list. It probably needs editing anyway.

Alternatively if you don't care for the minor details in there, check out the videos that show some notable features, or the images.
Hey, cool, thanks. Might give it a spin once I'm replaying DE.

Conversely, I'd love to be wrong about VRs ending up filled with "cinematic experiences" and instead be interactive cool stuff.

Wishful thinking for sure.

Myeah. Prepare to be bombarded by QTEs and cutscenes mere inches away from your eyes - so real.
 

Azazel

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
481
CyberP said:
That Sonus guy told me he takes it in the ass from his pet dog on a daily basis, and then cries and masturbates to Justin Bieber's 'confident' to finish himself off.

I reported your post to the Eidos mods, hopefully you aren't too attached to the other 2000 of them.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest
Let me report some of them too, I think he broke ToU at least 10 times.
:troll:
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
1,711
If this is what kind of community RPG Codex is then I regret my decision to join it.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest
For what reason?
bro calling other ppl retarded isnt nice try to learn some tact and open your mind a little bit more how about we both come to my house and listen to scrillex over a bottle of beer and playing thief :)
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
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You little troll. I'll have to decline your offer as you make me uncomfortable in your insanity. Girls just want to have fun I suppose :p
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
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It was a tasteless sexist joke/insult directed at you. Also a test to see if you were in fact female, which I very much doubted but it was just an irrelevant check prompted by a discussion that went down in another thread.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest
It was a tasteless sexist joke/insult directed at you. Also a test to see if you were in fact female, which I very much doubted but it was just an irrelevant check prompted by a discussion that went down in another thread.
You can't just contribute instead of attention whoring, can't you?
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
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Did you, zwanzig_zwoelf, really just ask me that question? You see no irony in that?

Anyway, I'm talking with an unabashed troll, that I am aware is just that, therefore I am essentially trolling myself.
If you want me I'll be in my playtester thread, I can talk to the sane half of zwanzig_zwoelf there at least, it seems.
 

No Great Name

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
572
Location
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I'm still not convinced. Games like Dwarf Fortress and some text-based MUDS are far more interactive than any FP game I've ever played or heard of.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

Unwanted
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Messages
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I'm still not convinced. Games like Dwarf Fortress and some text-based MUDS are far more interactive than any FP game I've ever played or heard of.

Well, a game is only as interactive as you program it to be. The objectivity comes from the additional detail viewable in first person at all times, especially if in real time, because there is more interactivity potential as a result, and especially so if in combination with the new hands-on approach of VR tech, rather than press button/execute command. Feel free to gang up and call me a retard, and try and put me down with ad hominems, but it seems pretty logical to me. I'd prefer if we could have a sensible discussion instead of all this madness but that doesn't seem to be in the nature of a number of members here.
 
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