Isometric + Party: Combat Control

[The_scorpion]

standing behind something where you cannot be shot (cover). Then in a single turn use 1 AP to move into the open, 4 APs to shoot at enemy and 1 AP to move back into cover is an exploit.

Because there is no interrupt fire in the game.

The lack of an interrupt possibility doesn't prove the system is flawed generally, it only proves that badly implemented combat mechanics can be exploited. 'tis a no-brainer argument. Not to mention pretty circular.

Besides, peeking out of cover, shooting, then dropping back into cover is probably THE most basic firearm technique out there since armies have stopped facing each other in lines on an open field and just wear each others out until one of them retreats.

If you shoot at an enemy and then retreat around the corner in vanilla ja2, the enemy, if he survives it, invariably throws a grenade to the corner behind which you just retreated (unless you retreat some tiles further). This goes to illustrate that counteractions can be implemented against such behaviour, they're not imminent flaws of turn-based systems.
The lack of control in RT combat, however, is immiment and becomes worse as the number of actions, enemies, playable characters, followers etc. increases, so squad-based RT out of necessity has to be so simple that a human, who can only input one decision at a time, can deal with an AI that can input thousands of decisions at a time. This will always dumb down both the AI and the player side of an RT game, even if you add the clutches of giving orders during a pause, because as soon as the situation for which the order during the pause were given changes, the game needs to be horribly dumb again. Plus you can't structure your orders, you need to give them all at the same time (during the pause, mostly)

That's why so many RT and RtwP-mechanics rely so much on "tanking" characters that can take many blows until the player has to hit *pause". that's why they requie crowd-control magic spells because enemy units can hardly be attacked individually for you lack the time to give the necessary orders. That's why you have to keep babysitting your tanks so they don't get stuck due to pathfinding. In turn-based games, pathfinding may be equally bad but has much less horrible consequences for the gameplay.

Rt works for single person controls especially if the game only has moving and shooting. As soon as you have a map, an inventory or something similar like that, you'll typically add a pause. Now the more you need that pause, the more you fuck up the flow of gameplay. So with the pause in there, the "Rt is more dynamic" argument is out of the door.

The other thing that works is making the loss of a single unit no problem, but that's basicly RTS and no longer squad based tactics. Sudden Strike had an interesting RtwP system, but of course RtwP can be exploited to hell and back, and sudden Strike shows this in pretty exemplary ways too. (besides RtwP isn't possible in multiplayer, so before you even think of RtwP, think of having no MP at all or at least no Pause anymore for real-time MP... )

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

RTwP gives players way too much control over the flow of combat, IMO, while pure RT would require lots of stuff to be handled by the AI.
It really annoyed me in X-Com: Apocalypse.

 

[zeitgeist]

I've found most realtime or realtime-with-pause games (even Syndicate which I irrationally love for mostly unrelated reasons) to just devolve into blob combat, because they're inevitably too easy for that "tactic" not to work most of the time (and in extremely rare cases, on the hardest difficulties, annoyingly frustrating to control in realtime/rtwp, leading to incredible amounts of reloading).

And just commanding your party blob to move around the map and shoot at enemies simultaneously kind of defeats most of the purpose of having a party, it might as well be a single character Diablo-like clickfest if employing any actual party-related tactics is discouraged by the game itself.

 

[commie]

Who is better at making choices, me or the AI?

As long as the answer to that question remains what it is, I don't see why the fuck full party control would not be preferable...

Actually, scratch that, even when the AI becomes better, I don't want it holding my hand.

Full party control is always better. I can think of no exceptions.

What if the whole point is that the game is about YOU and you alone and the emphasis is picking the right companions to complement your style of combat? You pick a psychopath for example so you shouldn't be surprised when he goes crazy during a battle. You hire a cheap coward, expect the bastard to flee a tough battle etc.

Depends on the game of course, but I think there is a place for AI companions in games. Would be an extra layer of challenge in discovering which ones work together best, which are reliable. A bit like the JA games though there you had full control unless they went apeshit.

Having said that, I don't see why it couldn't be an optional toggle in the settings. If you want full party control, you select it. If you want the programmed personality of the character to shine through, you select that instead.

Even so I think that JA did it best: give full control of characters to the player BUT have their personalities override what you ask of them if it's something that is contrary to their nature.

 

[laclongquan]

I have to agree with this commie here. Full control of characters in battle but develop good AI ruleset for behaviours.

I never once think the mercs in JA2 is interchangeable. They are each quite disctintive and require seperate strategy to utilize them, both in battle and out of battle.

 

[commie]

I have to agree with this commie here. Full control of characters in battle but develop good AI ruleset for behaviours.

I never once think the mercs in JA2 is interchangeable. They are each quite disctintive and require seperate strategy to utilize them, both in battle and out of battle.

Yeah, one of the best things in the game is using the different mercs to their potential and managing their hangups. It was fun to also see what you could do with a bunch of cheap, unreliable characters like Biff during the early game and try and turn them into something useful.

I've found most realtime or realtime-with-pause games (even Syndicate which I irrationally love for mostly unrelated reasons) to just devolve into blob combat, because they're inevitably too easy for that "tactic" not to work most of the time (and in extremely rare cases, on the hardest difficulties, annoyingly frustrating to control in realtime/rtwp, leading to incredible amounts of reloading).

And just commanding your party blob to move around the map and shoot at enemies simultaneously kind of defeats most of the purpose of having a party, it might as well be a single character Diablo-like clickfest if employing any actual party-related tactics is discouraged by the game itself.

Exactly. Real Time is too rapid for precise control of characters and for working out complicated tactics. RTwP is a bit better but it's still pretty chaotic as it's hard to judge when a certain character will do what you ask him to(such as getting a mage to shoot a 'hold' spell at an enemy BEFORE your fighter attacks him). In turn based, you can precisely decide on the order of attack, it's direction, make flanking moves that hit their foes at the exact time they are immobilised or distracted by other companions etc.

 

[Johannes]

What if the whole point is that the game is about YOU and you alone and the emphasis is picking the right companions to complement your style of combat?

Unfortunately it more likely turns to be about picking a decent group of companions and conforming your PCs style of combat to them. So while you have the strategic element of choosing a good party, you yourself end up just going through the motions in the tactical encounters because your partys AI will only conform into 1 or 2 different battleplans.

Even so I think that JA did it best: give full control of characters to the player BUT have their personalities override what you ask of them if it's something that is contrary to their nature.

This is a much better principle.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Real time is great for tactical-level games. For skirmish-level ones and RPGs turn-based is much better.

 

[Shemar]

I have to agree with this commie here. Full control of characters in battle but develop good AI ruleset for behaviours.

+1

I never once think the mercs in JA2 is interchangeable. They are each quite disctintive and require seperate strategy to utilize them, both in battle and out of battle.

I have only played JA2 once and I never felt any of the mercs had any special personalities. Other than the obvious "don't put X and Y on the same squad", which the game gives you clear warnings about, and some funny comments with no effect on gameplay whatsoever, my mercs could be just stats. JA1 actually had more merc personality affecting combat element than JA2 with mercs refusing orders on occasion.

 

[Johannes]

I never once think the mercs in JA2 is interchangeable. They are each quite disctintive and require seperate strategy to utilize them, both in battle and out of battle.

I have only played JA2 once and I never felt any of the mercs had any special personalities. Other than the obvious "don't put X and Y on the same squad", which the game gives you clear warnings about, and some funny comments with no effect on gameplay whatsoever, my mercs could be just stats. JA1 actually had more merc personality affecting combat element than JA2 with mercs refusing orders on occasion.

I think he meant the stats differences are enough to make them feel distinct from each other.

 

[laclongquan]

2010 newfaqs!

Ever try to assemble an Ex-Commie team? two russian plus one east german. A cuban also, but I am not sure the effect. Their morale hit the roof and they compliment verbally each other.

There's a love triangle in the merc also: set the two girls together and they may come to fight. At least, they insult each other. And the man will flirt with the girl.

The French girl is the heart's desire of many mercs. Set them with her in one zone and hear they hit on her.

Etc and etc...

 

[Shemar]

Ever try to assemble an Ex-Commie team? two russian plus one east german. A cuban also, but I am not sure the effect. Their morale hit the roof and they compliment verbally each other.

No game has ever impressed me enough to play it more than once or start experimenting with details just to see what happens, and I very much doubt any game ever will. Way too many interesting things to do in life than doing the same thing over and over.

There's a love triangle in the merc also: set the two girls together and they may come to fight. At least, they insult each other. And the man will flirt with the girl.

The French girl is the heart's desire of many mercs. Set them with her in one zone and hear they hit on her.

Etc and etc...

All of which has a total sum of zero effect in gameplay. It's cute but hardly impressive as a programming challenge or game feature.

 

[commie]

2010 newfaqs!

Ever try to assemble an Ex-Commie team? two russian plus one east german. A cuban also, but I am not sure the effect. Their morale hit the roof and they compliment verbally each other.

This was my favorite squad formation, for obvious reasons Ivan, Igor, Fidel(who didn't have much effect for the group but fitted the scene) and the German.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Shemar, it had several gameplay functions. Don't bash it if you didn't experience them:

1) Morale drop/raise - morale affects all skill usage. Mercs friendly to each other boost morale, hostile ones keep morale low. OTOH, mercs who really like each other become devastated if their friend dies.

2) Direct actions in-zone - mercs could go psycho with automatic weapons and empty their clips, mercs could forget your orders "me forget... me forget again!"

3) Making them "disappear" - some mercs hate each other strongly enough to actually kill the other guy(s). While those are somewhat rare, the "I'm leaving, I can't take this shit"-option is more common and can also ruin your day.

So not only do the mercs have different stats that affect your gameplay, their personalities can also have an impact on your play. Not a giant one because nobody wants to play Dr.Phil on their pc but an impact nevertheless.

 

[Shemar]

1) Morale drop/raise - morale affects all skill usage. Mercs friendly to each other boost morale, hostile ones keep morale low. OTOH, mercs who really like each other become devastated if their friend dies.

3) Making them "disappear" - some mercs hate each other strongly enough to actually kill the other guy(s). While those are somewhat rare, the "I'm leaving, I can't take this shit"-option is more common and can also ruin your day.

Both of which simply boil down to "some mercs are incompatible with some other mercs. Don't put them in the same squad". Beyond that obvious effect, which is simplistic at best to deal with, I succesfully played the entire game (v1.13) on hard without ever even looking at the morale stat, so I stand by my comment that its effect on gameplay is between none and insignificant.

2) Direct actions in-zone - mercs could go psycho with automatic weapons and empty their clips, mercs could forget your orders "me forget... me forget again!"

The first never happened while the second only happend outsdie of combat, so it was just an annoyance of re-issuing the command, more like a silly pointless gimmick than an actual gameplay feature.

So not only do the mercs have different stats that affect your gameplay, their personalities can also have an impact on your play. Not a giant one because nobody wants to play Dr.Phil on their pc but an impact nevertheless.

We obviously disagree on the definition of "impact".

 

[Phelot]

1) Morale drop/raise - morale affects all skill usage. Mercs friendly to each other boost morale, hostile ones keep morale low. OTOH, mercs who really like each other become devastated if their friend dies.

3) Making them "disappear" - some mercs hate each other strongly enough to actually kill the other guy(s). While those are somewhat rare, the "I'm leaving, I can't take this shit"-option is more common and can also ruin your day.

Both of which simply boil down to "some mercs are incompatible with some other mercs. Don't put them in the same squad". Beyond that obvious effect, which is simplistic at best to deal with, I succesfully played the entire game (v1.13) on hard without ever even looking at the morale stat, so I stand by my comment that its effect on gameplay is between none and insignificant.

2) Direct actions in-zone - mercs could go psycho with automatic weapons and empty their clips, mercs could forget your orders "me forget... me forget again!"

The first never happened while the second only happend outsdie of combat, so it was just an annoyance of re-issuing the command, more like a silly pointless gimmick than an actual gameplay feature.

So not only do the mercs have different stats that affect your gameplay, their personalities can also have an impact on your play. Not a giant one because nobody wants to play Dr.Phil on their pc but an impact nevertheless.

We obviously disagree on the definition of "impact".

Other then a few (Buzz & Lynx, Victoria & ???) the game doesn't specify who does and does not get along with other characters.

In any case, JA2 isn't an RPG (even though it does certain RPG elements better then games labeled "RPG") and character interaction isn't really the main focus, but I've always thought it does a good job at it. IF you don't like the mercs or you don't like the humor then yes it's going to be pretty dull for you, but what precisely are you looking for with them?

 

[Shemar]

Other then a few (Buzz & Lynx, Victoria & ???) the game doesn't specify who does and does not get along with other characters.

The mercs themselves gave me adequate verbal queues as to clearly know I should keep them in separate squads. Like "I can't stand Igor man" etc.

In any case, JA2 isn't an RPG (even though it does certain RPG elements better then games labeled "RPG") and character interaction isn't really the main focus, but I've always thought it does a good job at it. IF you don't like the mercs or you don't like the humor then yes it's going to be pretty dull for you, but what precisely are you looking for with them?

I never said I didn't like it. It is cool/interesting/cute. I just said it doesn't really impact gameplay (other than the mentioned keep on separate squads issue). I am not bashing JA2, I loved the game, it is just not really a good example of a game where companions/teammates behavior affects gameplay or is affected by circumstances.

What I would like to see? Well, mercs leaving or even murdering each other, as exists in the game is a good start. Mercs refusing to follow specific orders under specific circumstances (like it was done for some mercs in JA1) was also interesting. To that I would add mercs refusing to do things that are extremely dangerous to them, mercs retreating or taking cover due to morale.

JA/JA2 do this as 'flavor' mostly and almost never for the number one reason companions would not follow orders which is self preservation, or the number two reason which is disliking or not trusting their commander. It is solely focused on pre-determined merc to merc relationships. It is neither taking the actual situation under consideration nor give the player any option or way to deal with it other than just keep incompatible mercs apart.

 

[Phelot]

Fair enough and you bring up some good points. When I first played JA2 and encountered Mike, I was wondering if there would be some sort of turn coat movement in my squads were some of my mercs jump ship. That would have been cool, but also incredibly frustrating

I think that a lot of what you suggest would be nice, but impossible on very difficult settings that are hard enough even with obeying mercs. Would still be interesting to see.

 

[The_scorpion]

Fair enough and you bring up some good points. When I first played JA2 and encountered Mike, I was wondering if there would be some sort of turn coat movement in my squads were some of my mercs jump ship. That would have been cool, but also incredibly frustrating

I think that a lot of what you suggest would be nice, but impossible on very difficult settings that are hard enough even with obeying mercs. Would still be interesting to see.

I failed at implementing defection at the sight of Mike last time around, but i'll try again using different game mechanics. It should be doable

Not obeying orders already exists in very narrow circumstances. But there should be more possibilities in this regard. The code for this would have to be assessed and new conditions added, i guess.

 

[Shemar]

I think that a lot of what you suggest would be nice, but impossible on very difficult settings that are hard enough even with obeying mercs. Would still be interesting to see.

For JA2 yes, but for an RPG featuring turn based tactical combat it should be ok, especially if there are enough party member choices to allow the player to form a party from companions that are mostly compatible/agreeable.

 

[Phelot]

@The Scorpion
I your efforts good sir. You're like the Drog of JA2 except you don't create mass alts and annoy people.

@Shemar
I kind of got off topic there and forgot what we were talking about.

If I have a nice thing to say about Baldur's Gate 2, then it would have to be the whole Yoshimo affair. Truly, I was shocked and thought it was pretty cool after getting over that shock. Granted that was a scripted event as opposed to checking your various companions loyalties, likes, and dislikes, but still it would be nice to force the player not to take certain companions for granted.

 

[Shemar]

I like a good mix of pre-scripted and circumstance based reactions. For dramatic effect nothing beats a pre-scripted event. I am as much a wargamer as a role player and I see RPGs as two separate games, the role playing portion and the combat portion. I like having full control of my 'troops' in the combat portion (while maintaining the NPCs as separate entities in the role playing portion) but just like good wargames implement morale and unit quality in how orders are followed a good RPG should take into account how motivated the NPCs are to follow the PCs lead when orders are executed.