Review IWD2 review at Game Club Central

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Icewind Dale 2

<A href="http://www.gameclubcentral.com/">Game Club Central</a> has posted a <A href="http://www.gameclubcentral.com/modules.php?name=GCCReviews&d_op=viewdownloaddetails&lid=84&ttitle=Icewind%20Dale%202">review</a> of <a href="http://icewind2.blackisle.com">Icewind Dale 2</a>, giving it an <b>8/10</b>. Here's a scoop:
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<blockquote>If you ever played the pen and paper version of AD&D, then you will remember what it is like to spend a couple of hours generating a character that you would play. At least I did. IDII gives you a lot of options when generating your character. And with IDII incorporating the AD&D 3rd edition rule set, you now have the option of using the barbarian, monk, and sorcerer classes. There are many more character races/subraces to choose from. <u>Everyone's favorite, the dark elves (the Drow) are here.</u> Also included are the half-orcs, tieflings, and the gold dwarves. The 3rd edition rule set allows for some of these character/class combos to be really powerful from the start of the game. But it is balanced out by having an experience penalty so that they will not be overly powerful towards the end of the game. IDII also includes new priest, druid, and wizard spells, new character portraits and sounds, and a new random treasure generator for enemies.</blockquote>
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I personally hate Drow. I don't remember spending hours making up one character either. Maybe they just kept rerolling until they had something they liked!
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Spotted this at <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's News</a>

 

[Mistress]

Icewind Dale II (from here forth known as IDII) is the sequel to the much acclaimed Black Isle Studios' RPG, Icewind Dale and its expansion pack, The Heart of Winter. Icewind Dale was an RPG different from the standards set by its cousin, Baldur's Gate. Icewind Dale II focuses more on the hack and slash combat that Dungeons and Dragons fans love. IDII does not stray far from the path set by its predecessor. IDII is a story driven RPG that focuses most of the time on dungeon crawling and combat which is not necessarily a bad thing.

It's not a good thing either. Plus, while I like DnD, I don't love hack n' slash combat. I would far rather play a game where you can get away with a minimum amount of combat if you so choose when you play.

If you are looking for a complex, epic storyline along the lines of Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment, then IDII will be below your expectations. If, on the other hand, you are looking for a combat-intense, dungeon crawling experience with plenty of monsters, items, and gold to discover, then read on and see why IDII might just be your cup of tea (or elvish wine, which ever you prefer).

This I can agree with - the story is better than in Icewind Dale and Heart of Winter, but it's neither complex nor epic. Then again, I didn't find the story in Baldur's Gate complex or epic either.

If you ever played the pen and paper version of AD&D, then you will remember what it is like to spend a couple of hours generating a character that you would play. At least I did.

Well, not hours....

IDII gives you a lot of options when generating your character. And with IDII incorporating the AD&D 3rd edition rule set, you now have the option of using the barbarian, monk, and sorcerer classes.

This was one part of the parts of the game I actually enjoyed...I like character creation with 3E.

Everyone's favorite, the dark elves (the Drow) are here. Also included are the half-orcs, tieflings, and the gold dwarves.

I kind of like Drow personally...but not dual wielding super-rangers.

You can create up to 5 more characters to join you on your mission through IDII. If you choose to make one, you can recruit more characters from ones that are pregenerated for you. They will help you form a balanced party to venture through the game. But I always find it more enjoyable when I have a personal attachment to the characters I make. Thus, I recommend that you generate the next 5 characters yourself instead of using the pre-generated once to form your party.

I can't say that I developed any personal attachment to my party whatsoever, it's pretty difficult to develop an attachment when there is really nothing to set your characters apart from any others. Unless I suppose, you spent two hours creating them

IDII is a thinking man's RPG.

Just...no. I like parts of the game, as a whole I think it's okay - but come on...

This example illustrates the fact that sometimes you will have to reload a game several times just gain some knowledge of what will and won't work in a given situation. Quick save and quick load will become your best friends with IDII.

This is one of the things that annoys me really. This particularly annoyed me in Baldur's Gate II - where in many situations it was a case of reloading and being luckier the next time, or, more usually, the twentieth time. It gets tedious really fast.

IDII is a mostly linear game. Although it does allow role-play a little better then IDI did. The addition of skills like diplomacy and intimidation work itself into the conversations you have with the NPCs in the game. For instance, if you lead off the conversation with a given NPC and your lawfully good fighter or your evil dark elf rogue, the interactions will be vastly different. Some times the responses you will get will catch you off guard and every now and then make you laugh.

This is true enough - I did enjoy the dialogue in IWD II a lot more than the first game. Interaction with NPCs is definitely more interesting and varied.

The story allows you to keep motivated and just fuels the desire to see how the game turns out.

It isn't so much the story that motivates me to finish the game, as the fact that I paid for it and I want to finish it. That said, the biggest problem I have with the game is the puzzles - the save and reload fun in the Black Raven Monastery really didn't leave me with much enthusiasm....

One big complaint I do have is the pathfinding of my group is really poor.

Yay - Infinity Engine and pathfinding fun!

One big enhancement that I was excited about was the interface rearrangement. The old interface used to take up so much screen space that I felt I was missing things going on. Now the interface is more "compact" with it all being located on the bottom. It feels more open and spacious that I can actually see a lot of the combat that is going on. Everything is still accessible but just more compact. This is a welcome change and one I am glad they implemented.

I do like the interface better in IWDII. A lot better.

It is a thinking person's RPG that has style and interesting story.

Again....no.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's not a good thing either. Plus, while I like DnD, I don't love hack n' slash combat. I would far rather play a game where you can get away with a minimum amount of combat if you so choose when you play.

I don't mind a bit of hack & slash, but when the game is primarily combat, especially when it uses an uninteresting system like the Infinity Engine does, I'll pass on it.

If the combat is nice and tactical, loaded with options, then hack & slash isn't that bad. Jagged Alliance 2, for example, can be considered a present day H&S type game, and it's pretty nifty.

This I can agree with - the story is better than in Icewind Dale and Heart of Winter, but it's neither complex nor epic. Then again, I didn't find the story in Baldur's Gate complex or epic either.

You're the child of a god! It must be epic!

This was one part of the parts of the game I actually enjoyed...I like character creation with 3E.

3E's skills system rather annoys me, frankly. I'd much rather have weapons skills in there and use a percentile system. 1-20 just doesn't have that much is a resolution to it, and the skill cap per level that's based solely on class as opposed to attributes like Wisdom or Intelligence exclusively just seems a little off to me. Sure, there's an int modifier for those skill points, but it seems a little flat to me.

The thing is, with weapon skills, you can see why you're missing so often. Your skill level sucks. With 3E though, it's more like, "Gee, I don't have enough levels of a fighter style class so I can hit things better!"

And yeah, I know there's some feats that affect this, but I really think it's just a lot better to have an Axe Skill or a Sword Skill and so on.

I kind of like Drow personally...but not dual wielding super-rangers.

I'm not a big fan of Drow because they're just kind of silly. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of limiting races to certain alignments just because they're of that race. After all, we're talking about intelligent species here, right? Shouldn't intelligence alone dictate that there aren't set alignments for that entire grouping.

That's really what annoys me about Drow. It's like, "Dude, they're like Elves.. Only EVIL!"

I can't say that I developed any personal attachment to my party whatsoever, it's pretty difficult to develop an attachment when there is really nothing to set your characters apart from any others. Unless I suppose, you spent two hours creating them

About the only thing that "attaches" you to your party is that you can't readily replace tjhem if they die. Really, that's pretty much all that sets a combat focused Infinity Engine game apart from an RTS. If you could build bases and crank out new party members, we're talking Warcraft D&D here.

The passive nature of real time with pause combat pretty much precludes much player involvement, so getting attached to them.. Well, it's rather iffy.

Allow replacements, and I'd bet you'd see fodderism win the day in this type of game.

Just...no. I like parts of the game, as a whole I think it's okay - but come on...

Yup, I had to laugh when the reviewer said IWD2 is a "thinking man's RPG". Now, if the review was comparing IWD2 to Dungeon Siege, then he'd have a point. However, Diablo 2 really requires much more thinking and planning than IWD2 does just because of D2's item system alone. Factor in the skills planning in D2, and it's a hell of a lot more plodding than IWD2.

That's not to say Diablo 2 is an RPG, it's just that it's got a degree of complexity that a static D&D party based game doesn't have. If you make a balanced party, you're pretty much in it for the long haul without much trouble. All the thinking is done up front, and even then, it's more memory recall than it is thinking. Remember that you need a couple of melee fighters, at least one healer, a thief for the traps and locks, a magic user, and perhaps a ranged fighter.

This is one of the things that annoys me really. This particularly annoyed me in Baldur's Gate II - where in many situations it was a case of reloading and being luckier the next time, or, more usually, the twentieth time. It gets tedious really fast.

That's an issue with real time, frankly. You're never really sure why you lost. Was it your tactics? Was it your reflexes? Was the combat just going so fast with so much going on that you missed something? Are you simply not powerful enough to win that fight?

It isn't so much the story that motivates me to finish the game, as the fact that I paid for it and I want to finish it. That said, the biggest problem I have with the game is the puzzles - the save and reload fun in the Black Raven Monastery really didn't leave me with much enthusiasm....

The timer puzzles and the mazes are two reasons I didn't buy it. Of course, the big reason is I don't like Infinity Engine combat, which makes up the majority of the game.

Yay - Infinity Engine and pathfinding fun!

You'd think after eight title releases and four years, they'd have fixed it.

 

[Mistress]

I don't mind a bit of hack & slash, but when the game is primarily combat, especially when it uses an uninteresting system like the Infinity Engine does, I'll pass on it.

I don't mind a bit of hack 'n slash, in fact it can be fun - but I certainly don't love it.

If the combat is nice and tactical, loaded with options, then hack & slash isn't that bad. Jagged Alliance 2, for example, can be considered a present day H&S type game, and it's pretty nifty.

I haven't played JA2 yet....might give it a look.

You're the child of a god! It must be epic!

Sorry, did you say epic or gh3y?

3E's skills system rather annoys me, frankly. I'd much rather have weapons skills in there and use a percentile system. 1-20 just doesn't have that much is a resolution to it, and the skill cap per level that's based solely on class as opposed to attributes like Wisdom or Intelligence exclusively just seems a little off to me. Sure, there's an int modifier for those skill points, but it seems a little flat to me.

I hear ya - I just prefer 3rd Edition over 2nd.

I'm not a big fan of Drow because they're just kind of silly. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of limiting races to certain alignments just because they're of that race. After all, we're talking about intelligent species here, right? Shouldn't intelligence alone dictate that there aren't set alignments for that entire grouping.

That's really what annoys me about Drow. It's like, "Dude, they're like Elves.. Only EVIL!"

True, I actually prefer the Dunmer in Morrowind. It's not that they're like super cool evil elves, I just find them interesting for some reason. They appeal to me more than any other race.

About the only thing that "attaches" you to your party is that you can't readily replace tjhem if they die. Really, that's pretty much all that sets a combat focused Infinity Engine game apart from an RTS. If you could build bases and crank out new party members, we're talking Warcraft D&D here.

You just raise them from the dead. "Oh no, my mage was killed horribly in battle with the evil orcs......and now he's back, fighting fit and ready to kick ass". HOORAY!

Allow replacements, and I'd bet you'd see fodderism win the day in this type of game.

Mass produced mages!

Just...no. I like parts of the game, as a whole I think it's okay - but come on...

All the thinking is done up front, and even then, it's more memory recall than it is thinking. Remember that you need a couple of melee fighters, at least one healer, a thief for the traps and locks, a magic user, and perhaps a ranged fighter.

It's all pretty much routine after a while....

That's an issue with real time, frankly. You're never really sure why you lost. Was it your tactics? Was it your reflexes? Was the combat just going so fast with so much going on that you missed something? Are you simply not powerful enough to win that fight?

I'm pretty sure what happened in the Chamber of Immolation in the Black Raven Monastery. My lone character, stripped of all her gear, sent into the chamber, given the bare essential choice of weapons, pitted against two brass monks and continual pillars of flame coming down from the ceiling. FUN!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I hear ya - I just prefer 3rd Edition over 2nd.

I don't think either is a very good system, for the reasons I described above. Because fighting ability is basically tied to what classes you pick, in order to have a Magic User that can fillet an enemy with a dagger, you're required to have some levels of fighter. Why not just make it a skill? It's a much more logical choice.

Furthermore, it's more logical because of weapon techniques. Dagger fights are much different than say, hammer fights. Sure, they have feats like Martial Weapons and the like, but that's not all that great of a system. A heavy mace and a greatsword are totally different. Even if you chose to specialize in heavy mace with feats, if you're not a fighter class somewhere along the way, you're not going to get much out of that.

True, I actually prefer the Dunmer in Morrowind. It's not that they're like super cool evil elves, I just find them interesting for some reason. They appeal to me more than any other race.

Except they all sounded like heavy smokers.

You just raise them from the dead. "Oh no, my mage was killed horribly in battle with the evil orcs......and now he's back, fighting fit and ready to kick ass". HOORAY!

That's a design problem. Given the Infinity Engine's pathfinding, and BIS/BioWare's need to throw large masses of monsters at a player..

Still though, death should be a consequence greater than, "Crap, I have to use a scroll" or "Crap, I have to cast this spell." or "Crap! I have so spend some of my millions of gold coins."

I'm pretty sure what happened in the Chamber of Immolation in the Black Raven Monastery. My lone character, stripped of all her gear, sent into the chamber, given the bare essential choice of weapons, pitted against two brass monks and continual pillars of flame coming down from the ceiling. FUN!

Ummm.. wow. Doesn't that pretty much screw over fightery types who live and die by their armor? A Druid could handle that just by stoneskinning, for example, but a naked fighter is a dead fighter.

 

[Mistress]

Except they all sounded like heavy smokers.

hehehe

That's a design problem. Given the Infinity Engine's pathfinding, and BIS/BioWare's need to throw large masses of monsters at a player..

Still though, death should be a consequence greater than, "Crap, I have to use a scroll" or "Crap, I have to cast this spell." or "Crap! I have so spend some of my millions of gold coins."

Exactly. If it's choice between reloading and fighting again or just casting a spell/popping in to the temple - hmmm...I wonder.

Ummm.. wow. Doesn't that pretty much screw over fightery types who live and die by their armor? A Druid could handle that just by stoneskinning, for example, but a naked fighter is a dead fighter.

Yes. My lack of a druid or someone else useful pained me greatly. It's great when you get to a point in a game like this and think - "oh shit - I could really do with a different party formation...." My poor poor naked fighter....

To add something else that amused me - you can buy a book in the game which gives the character that uses it something like 10,000 XP. I didn't like that very much at all. I do like the system in Morrowind - where you read a book and it gives you an extra level in a particular area - say Mercantile skill - that makes sense. Reading a book and say having your cleric going up a level gaining more cleric spells, as well as increasing stats etc is pretty silly.