Jeff Vogel vs Pillars of Eternity

[V_K]

He chose the right example though: PoE's systems are designed in such a way that dropping half of the character creation options won't have any effect on gameplay anyway.

 

[Iznaliu]

but how much its sequel sells

That is only true for mega-blockbusters

Obsidian's successor to Pillars, Tyranny, by their own words, underperformed

Tyranny failed by its own lack of merits and most importantly, a lack of marketing.

Also, I looked at the Steam achievement statistics for Pillars of Eternity. According to those, fewer than half of players finished the first chapter. Only about 10% of players completed the game.

That isn't unusual for a game like PoE:

• PoE has a 10.4% completion rate
• Wasteland 2 has a 7.3% completion rate
• SR:HK has a 6.7% completion rate
• D:OS EE has a 5.3% completion rate
• Avadon has a 2.7% completion rate

 

[vonAchdorf]

• PoE has a 10.4% completion rate
• Wasteland 2 has a 7.3% completion rate
• SR:HK has a 6.7% completion rate
• D:OS EE has a 5.3% completion rate
• Avadon has a 2.7% completion rate

I think Avadon's average suffers from ultra-cheap sales and bundles, but still this list means that PoE does pretty well.

His points are mostly valid and I even agree with his objections to sub-races / cultures. I like fluff and LARPING but PoE style expositions are too much for me. It's probably the fate of any new game which introduces a new setting. 20 years ago, I'd have read the manual before creating my character, familiarizing myself with the world but these days I mostly cba to read all that crap because it's very likely not worth my time. Who is deeply invested in PoE lore and boreal dwarves here? I read item descriptions in Demon's / Dark Souls though

 

[Sizzle]

He chose the right example though: PoE's systems are designed in such a way that dropping half of the character creation options won't have any effect on gameplay anyway.

Maybe, though I'd argue that the solution is not eliminating character creation options, but making them more important.

But this coming from a developer who thinks deliberately simplifying his own games (the aforementioned Avadon series, where he even introduced romances in the second part, because his hero, BioWare, are doing it) will make them better and more accessible (Yeah, Jeff, your fans play your games because they like the high-end graphics and intricate character relationships) - comes off a bit silly.

Like others have pointed out, he gets the problem, but he's declined so much in his design principles that his first thought is to simply cut everything he doesn't like or understand - not make them clearer and better integrated into the game.

 

[Iznaliu]

because it's very likely not worth my time.

You might need to know that if PoE2 is wildly successful and they release a movie.

 

[gaussgunner]

The problem with PoE character creation is identity politics. This game wants you to think like an SJW, sticking labels on people and lecturing about how they've been oppressed.

And there you have it, folks, having an option to choose your own race, gender, class and background in an RPG has officially become SJW pandering

Seriously, you guys are becoming just as bad as the wacko feminists - seeing patterns of male oppression and hidden leftist agendas everywhere :D

Hidden leftist agendas? They are everywhere, right out in the open.

I'm just saying, these tick-a-box "identity politics" group labels are retarded. They don't define a person. If you think the most important thing about me is "gamergater" you're wrong (I'm not in lockstep with that movement), and you're disregarding my long-held principles that led me to side with GG. Also it tells you jack shit about my strengths and weaknesses.

If it's not SJW pandering, name another reason why developers include so many character creation choices without consequences?

 

[Serus]

The problem with PoE character creation is identity politics. This game wants you to think like an SJW, sticking labels on people and lecturing about how they've been oppressed.

And there you have it, folks, having an option to choose your own race, gender, class and background in an RPG has officially become SJW pandering

Seriously, you guys are becoming just as bad as the wacko feminists - seeing patterns of male oppression and hidden leftist agendas everywhere :D

"you guys" in an answer to one guy...

 

[vonAchdorf]

because it's very likely not worth my time.

You might need to know that if PoE2 is wildly successful and they release a movie.

I know that PoE2 is successful and defies the indie trend of sequels doing worse. A movie might be good, because that makes investing in a new world "cheaper" for the player. With a DnD or RoA game, it's not problem to pick obscure classes, races, cultures for those already invested in the setting, but these days I rather shitpost on the codex than read countless mouseover texts, to find out whether my aristocratic boreal dwarf Cipher from Rauatai actually makes sense. (Lore wise - stat wise, I know that he'll be balanced at least :D.)

 

[Sizzle]

If it's not SJW pandering, name another reason why developers include so many character creation choices without consequences?

Lack of budget/time/creativity to properly represent all those character-building choices in-game?

I mean, it's either that, or you believe that they created the Boreal Dwarves as a way to SJW pander to all the Inuits that are hankering to buy and play this game

 

[Average Manatee]

Fallout character creation had the right idea: one screen, show me the numbers.

 

[Raghar]

Oh dear. In true Vogelian fashion, Jeff starts out by plagiarizing Darth Roxor, but then becomes something far worse: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2017/06/games-have-too-many-words-case-study.html

And I thought I had Alzhaimer from 24 onward.

 

[gaussgunner]

If it's not SJW pandering, name another reason why developers include so many character creation choices without consequences?

Lack of budget/time/creativity to properly represent all those character-building choices in-game?

I mean, it's either that, or you believe that they created the Boreal Dwarves as a way to SJW pander to all the Inuits that are hankering to buy and play this game

More likel pandering to the kind of reviewers who ooh and aah over the incredibly socially conscious character creation loredumps, only play halfway through the first chapter, rate it 10/10 GOTY.

 

[Sizzle]

If it's not SJW pandering, name another reason why developers include so many character creation choices without consequences?

Lack of budget/time/creativity to properly represent all those character-building choices in-game?

I mean, it's either that, or you believe that they created the Boreal Dwarves as a way to SJW pander to all the Inuits that are hankering to buy and play this game

More likel pandering to the kind of reviewers who ooh and aah over the incredibly socially conscious character creation loredumps, only play halfway through the first chapter, rate it 10/10 GOTY.

Did anyone really praise PoE's character creation for being fantasy inclusive? Because I've never seen a single person gush: "Wow, PoE has not-orcs who are based on Polynesian cultures, which are, like, totally underrepresented in vidya games!"

Or could it be that you're just seeing things that aren't there because you want to see them? Like I said, train yourself to see these patterns long enough, and soon you'll also start seeing them where there aren't any.

 

[Anthedon]

Or could it be that you're just seeing things that aren't there because you want to see them?

Careful, that's about 90% of the reason why the Codex exists.

 

[gaussgunner]

Did anyone really praise PoE's character creation for being fantasy inclusive?

uhhhh, let's search.... yup.

 

[Sizzle]

Did anyone really praise PoE's character creation for being fantasy inclusive?

uhhhh, let's search.... yup.

Mind providing those search results?

Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see those myself, could always use a laugh :D

 

[gaussgunner]

Maybe another day. Try "pillars of eternity inclusive" for a start. On google, on youtube, ... on tumblr ?

 

[Sizzle]

I'm not that curious desperate :D

 

[Raghar]

PoE has a 10.4% completion rate

• Wasteland 2 has a 7.3% completion rate
• SR:HK has a 6.7% completion rate
• D:OS EE has a 5.3% completion rate
• Avadon has a 2.7% completion rate

Avadon is difficult, especially when you do that first task and think the rest of combat would be as easy. But Divinity OS EE completion rate is rather strange, because it has actual graphic and stuff.

 

[Old One]

How dumb does a game have to be to have a high completion percentage?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

How dumb does a game have to be to have a high completion percentage?

Its probably difficult for people like us to comprehend the true nature of most people who start computer games. With this being a niche forum on a niche topic for more dedicated nerds then the majority here will likely be people who will complete games. But even here you regularly see people complain or state that they rarely complete games.

Before making let's plays on youtube became fashionable, for example, and before youtube fine tuned its search results, you could regularly look for walkthroughs on youtube and find no-end of people who proudly exclaim let's play this that or the other and then cease posting videos after three or four videos. And then on top of that, you have to consider how many people are just buying the game to try and milk views on youtube and quit when the numbers start dipping. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the the number of sales related to hopeful lets players is at least in the low thousands.

What I don't understand is why developers even give a fuck about these kind of statistics in the first place. If you've made 100,000 sales and the game only has a 10% completion rate then it's still the 10,000 that will be talking about your game that's the most important thing in the long-term. Front loading might work for immediate sales, but it will have a detrimental effect to long-term sales as people will be more cynical towards the next project.

 

[Iznaliu]

What I don't understand is why developers even give a fuck about these kind of statistics in the first place.

Because it makes them feel good.

 

[Sizzle]

Sawyer responds! :D

 

[Infinitron]

I can't believe he replied to that.

 

[Dayyālu]

Analyzing anything Vogel says nowadays is useless. I'm not joking when I say that everything he writes is "Effort is bad, I am old and tired, effort is bad for you and your players, do as little as possible because I am so old and so tired and I want to post pony memes and talk about Bioware. Also, I am tired."

Man jumped the shark long ago.

Even when he tried to make somewhat coherent posts (Indiepocalypse, Steam, pricing) he was wrong every goddamn time.