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Just Finished Risen and...

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
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Finnegan's Wake
Regdar said:
The final boss fight was when there was like, four people left in the office and they pooled their spare change together (some of them had to walk home) to make it.
More like they told the exchange intern from Nintendo: "Here, you've been making coffee and smelling xerox ozone long enough. Time you showed us what you can do. *jokingly* We don't care if it ends up like Zelda."

Oh FUUuuu-

it finally appears I'm not the only one totally despising the whole gothic franchise.
Huh? Gothic never was universally liked on the codex. I don't care about System Shock/Deus Ex. I still don't bitch about them. Because:
They don't rape/rip-off other franchises.
They don't set stupid standards for the RPG genre.
They are not the only games in badly undersupplied genres.

I bitch about games that are badly done in genres I basically like, not about games of genres that don't interest me. If you don't like twitch games why even comment on them? It's not like your criticism will ever be heard and lead to an improved twitch game. And that's basically the stupidity for which people put Befuddled Halfling on ignore, not because he disagreed with them.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Messages
188
Coyote said:
Now, that all may be too twitchy for your tastes, but that's beside the point; I was just addressing the luck argument. The fact is, you don't have to fight any ghouls until halfway through chapter 2. I'm not sure what exact level you can achieve by that point, but I'm pretty sure that it's somewhere in the mid-to-upper teens, which should give you some extra HP and 130+ learning points to spend on making yourself a lean, mean fighting machine.

Cheers - appreciate your time explaining your points. I actually want to get into this game despite the twitch- obviously the quest structure, factions, c&c and (dare I say) exploration, are all top notch. Plus the Gothics must have this slightly fanatical cult following for some reason. I could have just lowered the difficulty and played on, but I wanted to observe what skills it tested, and if the combat fell into the 'easy/fun once you it clicks' category. It didn't seem to. Serious question – on the PC, are you better off playing this with a controller? On the keyboard, if you mistake d+space for f+space, that will usually cost you the fight. ... and now without block quoting your whole post:

1) ‘20 hit’ ghoul/worm – at that fight I had bought 1 strength upgrade, and some special parry, which only helped against sword wielders. Don’t like there being no way to avoid getting one-shotted by anything – would have preferred an NPC warning/some way to predict when the acid/ice whatever might come + a way to interrupt/dodge/ or some alchemy to raise immunity. 30 reloads didn't really give me the 'come back later' clue because most fights ended badly, so I had no reason to assume this particular one was the special 'supposed to end badly' one,

2) Timing variations - in themselves are a good thing, of course. I don’t expect a lizardman to attack like a Swiss train timetable. I only had an issue with the fact that Risen combat = timing, and timing = random. Therefore combat = random (hyperbole ofc, but that’s how it felt as a first time player). Meaning it felt twitch, and not “observation” and “rhythm” as was said on that other thread. It should be enough to test eg pattern recognition and recollection, eg that moth goes –AA—AA whereas ghoul goes –A-A-A. Instead you have to wait (as you say, just in case). But this did not work fighting certain humans. They attacked without any pattern or warning, and the shield does nothing against some combos (and that first-parry skill was stupidly hard to time). Which would be fine if you didn’t die after just 2 lucky flurries.

3) The sense of progression felt ... flat – maybe because I put points into lockpick, sneak, strength and sword (with one misplaced into staff), which didn’t make the fights noticeably easier. Is this a game that favors axes or staves? I’d want to give it another chance if anyone can point me to solid build at a couple of level ‘milestones’. Builds that should allow leeway for at least four missed key strokes/blocks and allow kills with a maximum of 10 hits.

4) No, a wolf wasn’t tough, but they never travel alone after level 1. So one always gets behind you (or at least it does around me). Feels like lion taming with clunky controls. And that = insta reload or kite to a choke point, which seems kinda sad. Or do you manage to keep them all in check?

5. Ofc Risen’s not 100% based on twitch - stats change. But there is area scaling iirc, so you remain just as fragile relative to the foes. Nothing new in that sentence, per se, except the word 'fragile'. So back to twitch as your general purpose savior. In this respect it’s like Modern Warfare, except that constant fragility and twitch in MW is because neither side levels, so remains in lockstep as if at level 1:level 1, as opposed to Risen remaining in lockstep at (eg) level 12:level 12 (hyperbole for illustrative purposes, ofc).

TL;DR – any chance you could cast your mind back to (say) the 4 boars that guard the transition between the farm and the bandit camp, and tell me how that battle should go? What are the boars doing, and how do you counter it. Retard-friendly pointers, max 2 reloads allowed on default difficulty. Or the Brogar fight where your shield doesn’t work against many of his attacks. An example of good builds at a few selected levels would be great too.
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
453
Befuddled Halfling said:
3) The sense of progression felt ... flat – maybe because I put points into lockpick, sneak, strength and sword (with one misplaced into staff), which didn’t make the fights noticeably easier. Is this a game that favors axes or staves? I’d want to give it another chance if anyone can point me to solid build at a couple of level ‘milestones’. Builds that should allow leeway for at least four missed key strokes/blocks and allow kills with a maximum of 10 hits.
Staves are bugged iirc, they don't get the damage bonus from the skill that they should. They are also behind in damage from the staves themselves. So don't use them on a first playthrough. Axes are usually considered a bit better than swords, you can buy some really sweet ones from the bandit smith ( a 96 dam one in chapter 2 iirc ? ) and you get charged attack at skill lvl 2. Edit: And of course, no shields with staves.
4) No, a wolf wasn’t tough, but they never travel alone after level 1. So one always gets behind you (or at least it does around me). Feels like lion taming with clunky controls. And that = insta reload or kite to a choke point, which seems kinda sad. Or do you manage to keep them all in check?
Chokepoint is the only real way in the beginning.

TL;DR – any chance you could cast your mind back to (say) the 4 boars that guard the transition between the farm and the bandit camp, and tell me how that battle should go? What are the boars doing, and how do you counter it. Retard-friendly pointers, max 2 reloads allowed on default difficulty. Or the Brogar fight where your shield doesn’t work against many of his attacks. An example of good builds at a few selected levels would be great too.
Boars are tough, they can break your block so get to their side/rear and attack from there. So get ones attention and when it charges sidestep, turn and hit.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
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Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Befuddled Halfling said:
Coyote said:
Now, that all may be too twitchy for your tastes, but that's beside the point; I was just addressing the luck argument. The fact is, you don't have to fight any ghouls until halfway through chapter 2. I'm not sure what exact level you can achieve by that point, but I'm pretty sure that it's somewhere in the mid-to-upper teens, which should give you some extra HP and 130+ learning points to spend on making yourself a lean, mean fighting machine.

Cheers - appreciate your time explaining your points. I actually want to get into this game despite the twitch- obviously the quest structure, factions, c&c and (dare I say) exploration, are all top notch. Plus the Gothics must have this slightly fanatical cult following for some reason. I could have just lowered the difficulty and played on, but I wanted to observe what skills it tested, and if the combat fell into the 'easy/fun once you it clicks' category. It didn't seem to. Serious question – on the PC, are you better off playing this with a controller? On the keyboard, if you mistake d+space for f+space, that will usually cost you the fight. ... and now without block quoting your whole post:

How can you mistake it when you hold your hand on wasd? Never had happen to me when I press numeric key then I still hold one of my fingers at "a" my fingers always get back at the same position. I can't play anything with a controller as I am used to M&K, and it works fine in Risen to me.

Befuddled Halfling said:
1) ‘20 hit’ ghoul/worm – at that fight I had bought 1 strength upgrade, and some special parry, which only helped against sword wielders. Don’t like there being no way to avoid getting one-shotted by anything – would have preferred an NPC warning/some way to predict when the acid/ice whatever might come + a way to interrupt/dodge/ or some alchemy to raise immunity. 30 reloads didn't really give me the 'come back later' clue because most fights ended badly, so I had no reason to assume this particular one was the special 'supposed to end badly' one,

2) Timing variations - in themselves are a good thing, of course. I don’t expect a lizardman to attack like a Swiss train timetable. I only had an issue with the fact that Risen combat = timing, and timing = random. Therefore combat = random (hyperbole ofc, but that’s how it felt as a first time player).

Meaning it felt twitch, and not “observation” and “rhythm” as was said on that other thread

The facts are that many other people didn't had at much problems as you did so it can't be random. You had given examples of two one shot attacks (but I didn't get one shotted by Ghul so maybe at was at bigger level they seem scary, and I did avoid them at the beginning), my first fight with Ghuls was at the passage, and that was very hard but again that is one of few really hard fights.

Befuddled Halfling said:
It should be enough to test eg pattern recognition and recollection, eg that moth goes –AA—AA whereas ghoul goes –A-A-A.

No that would be dull, and just playing on memorization after first encounter complaining about codex hive mind, and demand dumbing down. :thumbsup:

Befuddled Halfling said:
Instead you have to wait (as you say, just in case). But this did not work fighting certain humans. They attacked without any pattern or warning, and the shield does nothing against some combos (and that first-parry skill was stupidly hard to time). Which would be fine if you didn’t die after just 2 lucky flurries.

Apparently lucky flurries must happen more often when you play. I did had to reload ~5 times when fighting against Brogar, and maybe close to 10 when fighting with the monastery training master that was excessive but those were some of the hardest fights, overall I would say that Risen was to easy, and kind with not having allot of strong enemies on your path at low level. You should be forced to do more avoiding, finding different ways to pass etc. I did play on normal because having enemies with more HP would be to repetitive.

Befuddled Halfling said:
3) The sense of progression felt ... flat – maybe because I put points into lockpick, sneak, strength and sword (with one misplaced into staff), which didn’t make the fights noticeably easier. Is this a game that favors axes or staves? I’d want to give it another chance if anyone can point me to solid build at a couple of level ‘milestones’. Builds that should allow leeway for at least four missed key strokes/blocks and allow kills with a maximum of 10 hits.

No, well 2h axes do most dmg but you can't use shield for a long time, and they are slow so you would do even worse with them, they are harder to use. Staves are the weakest, and hardest to play with.

Befuddled Halfling said:
4) No, a wolf wasn’t tough, but they never travel alone after level 1. So one always gets behind you (or at least it does around me). Feels like lion taming with clunky controls. And that = insta reload or kite to a choke point, which seems kinda sad. Or do you manage to keep them all in check?

Sometimes, but I was avoiding packs of wolfes at the low levels.

Befuddled Halfling said:
5. Ofc Risen’s not 100% based on twitch - stats change. But there is area scaling iirc, so you remain just as fragile relative to the foes. Nothing new in that sentence, per se, except the word 'fragile'. So back to twitch as your general purpose savior. In this respect it’s like Modern Warfare, except that constant fragility and twitch in MW is because neither side levels, so remains in lockstep as if at level 1:level 1, as opposed to Risen remaining in lockstep at (eg) level 12:level 12 (hyperbole for illustrative purposes, ofc).

If by hyperbole you mean lying then you are correct. There is very minor scaling in Risen.

Befuddled Halfling said:
TL;DR – any chance you could cast your mind back to (say) the 4 boars that guard the transition between the farm and the bandit camp, and tell me how that battle should go? What are the boars doing, and how do you counter it. Retard-friendly pointers, max 2 reloads allowed on default difficulty. Or the Brogar fight where your shield doesn’t work against many of his attacks. An example of good builds at a few selected levels would be great too.

You mean the cave passage? Don't go there when you are to weak duh.
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
Nah; if he was Hitler, half of GD would show up to sing his praises.

Befuddled Halfling said:
Serious question – on the PC, are you better off playing this with a controller? On the keyboard, if you mistake d+space for f+space, that will usually cost you the fight.

I couldn't tell you (never used a controller for a PC game).

Responding via numbers to avoid block-quoting again...

1) Not sure what you mean by "1 strength upgrade", but strength and dexterity both can be raised up to a maximum of 200, with 100 being the max possible from training alone (you can get the rest from potions, which makes alchemy 3 one of the best uses of your LP in the game). A single upgrade will only raise it by 1 or 5 points, which won't make much of a difference. If I'm playing a melee fighter, I generally look at the strength required for the highest-damage weapon available in my preferred category of weapons and try to match it. Between the damage from your increased strength and the damage from the weapon, this will usually have a profound effect on your fighting ability. Oh, and if you feel like you're doing abnormally low damage, try switching to a weapon that deals a different type of damage; some creatures, like skeletons and war crickets, are weaker against blunt damage and will take more damage even if you end up using a lower-damage weapon.

2) Nothing much to say here, except that every enemy type has patterns that can be exploited to fight it in a twitchy manner if you choose to do so. I prefer leveling up and letting my character do the heavy lifting, though. One thing to keep in mind if you do try to twitch-fight is that the length of your weapon affects your timing; it's much easier to keep an enemy at bay using a longsword than a hunting knife, and not just because of the difference in damage. (At one point, although this might have been in Gothic 2, I found that I was better off using a weaker, longer weapon rather than upgrading because doing so messed up my timing and made it too difficult to avoid being hit.)

3) Sword- and axe-fighting are much more powerful than staff-fighting, both in terms of damage output and being able to use shields. At any given moment, you're likely to have access to more powerful axes than swords; however, axes can only be wielded two-handed until you raise your axe-fighting skill 6, and axe users benefit less from smithing since you can't forge any axes. Sword-fighting is probably the most balanced overall unless you're very good at two-handed fighting.

As for builds, it's okay to put points in lockpicking and other miscellaneous skills at the beginning, since most of the early game is spent in the bandit camp, Harbor Town, and monastery. In fact, this is generally a good idea, as you'll have a much harder time raising the money to invest in early training otherwise. Do keep in mind that level 3 chests are rare until chapter 3, though, so you might want to save some LP early on by sticking to lockpick 2 and simply making note when you encounter them so that you can come back later.

Once you really want to start exploring the world, I'd recommend investing 10-20 points in strength and getting the best weapon you can wield (I prefer swords to axes, so this would be either the cutlass, which can be bought in Harbor Town and requires 20 strength, or the skullsplitter, which can be bought in the bandit camp - or looted from some skeletons, if you manage to take them down - and requires 26 strength). This should be enough to take out most of the early-game enemies (hungry wolves, stingrats, grave moths) in 1-2 hits, while giving you greater leeway in fights against tougher enemies. I would personally recommend this for any build just to give you some breathing room early in the game; your LP investments early in the game make much more of a difference than later in the game in terms of enabling you to explore more of the world, and boosting strength provides a more noticeable benefit early on than boosting weapon skills, so unless you intend to become a mage by going straight to Harbor Town and then the monastery, this should prove a useful investment.

After that, it depends on your goals. If you're a mage, you'll want to invest as many LP as possible into your crystal of choice as soon as you are able. The crystals use a set amount of mana that never changes and become more powerful as you level them up, which, combined with how damage reduction works, makes this much more useful than splitting your investment between the crystals and mana. Don't worry about wisdom; it can only be raised by reading books and tablets, which you'll come across as you explore.

If you're a melee fighter, you'll want to keep investing in strength and make sure that you always have enough to wield your most powerful weapon; maybe keep 10 LP in reserve so you can boost strength when you find new weapons, and spend the rest to boost your sword-/axe-fighting skill and whatever other skills you find useful. Never played a pure archer, but I'd imagine it plays out very similarly, just with dexterity instead of strength.

Smithing 2 is useful for everyone because it enables you to produce rings that increase your armor by 8; two of these are almost equivalent to getting an upgrade to your armor, and there are fewer ways to boost your armor in the game than there are to boost your damage, so this can make a big difference. Smithing 3 is useful for melee fighters because it enables you to produce a +15 strength amulet and two-handed swords, including the most powerful sword you can obtain until chapter 4. Mages and (I'm assuming) Order members get a very powerful armor-boosting amulet fairly early in the game (bandits get it too, but not until much later), though, so you may not want to invest in the third level of smithing if you find your strength adequate and don't use swords. And alchemy 3, as noted above, is the best investment in terms of overall returns for anyone, though you can put this off until later in the game if you want to use potions to max out your primary attribute. (If you don't mind not reaching 200, though, you should invest in it earlier; you'll be slightly weaker at the end of the game, but much stronger throughout the majority of it, which may appeal to you if you're still having trouble.)

Metro and I recently had an exchange that goes into a bit more detail, though as mentioned there, you don't really need to optimize your character to a great extent; just make sure you're good at your primary fighting style and that should be enough.

4) I can usually keep three wolves in check by doing a lot of circling/blocking and only attacking when all three are in front of me; it's not a perfect strategy, but they generally don't give me much trouble. If there are more than three, I try to take out the closest one before they have a chance to attack by striking while it's in the middle of the growling animation, although this requires precise timing. A lot of the groups you encounter in chapter 2 are also less intimidating than they look because they contain a mixture of hungry wolves, wolves, and black wolves, of which only the latter should take more than a hit or two if you've invested your LP well and kept stocked with the latest weapons. Merchants gain new goods between chapters, so be sure to check back with them.

5) The area scaling is most noticeable in the transition between chapters 1 and 2 with regard to wolves and a few sets of moths/stingrats. After that, the only new enemies that appear in previously-explored areas are lizardmen and lizardmen elites. Most areas remain the same; you'll never see gnomes, ghouls, skeletons, worms, etc. replaced with higher-level counterparts, and I don't think any new enemies appear inside caves/ruins.

As for boars and Brogar: multiple boars are a pain to fight; I can never get the timing right, and I usually let them be until I'm strong enough to take them down quickly, at which point they're a cakewalk. Fortunately, there are very few groups of them and they're generally out of the way. And although fighting humanoids is more fun when you've fully upgraded your weapon skill and use all the tricks at your disposal, the surest way to defeat them for a beginner is quite boring: always block, attack once after they finish a sequence of attacks (unless your character attacks with a surge of speed as happens occasionally, in which case you can go for a full three-hit combo), and keep a healthy distance so that if they start to use an attack that can break through your shield, you can move out of its range. IIRC, that's how I managed to defeat Brogar the first time despite wielding only a thorn mace and a shield. In the Gothics you could also dodge when they charged at you and hit them in the back, but I've found much less success doing this in Risen.
 
Joined
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Messages
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MajorNova said:
I liked the part where Befuddled Halfling is literally Hitler.

Ja! I hate Risen because it voz initiated by ze JewWood as Gothic. It also sold vell in many countries where verdammte untermensch live, like the Union of Putin's Socialist Republics and Potatoland. Also, von of my balls is kaputt.

_40732471_swastika_203.jpg
 

bhlaab

Erudite
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,787
Befuddled Halfling said:
What's this twitch reflex kiddie-console game (with quests) doing in the GRPG forum? Block, Attack, Dodge. Rinse-repeat.

Agreed, I hate action rpg combat where you block, attack, dodge, and parry. I wish they would make an action rpg sword combat game where you do none of these things
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Messages
188
Block attack dodge is a fine combat mechanic. Just best to admire games that use it on Gamespot and IGN. Or at least for fucks sake don't make threads about how retarded Skyrim combat is, because that will also definitely use block attack dodge instead of (*hyperbole, but only slight) background dice rolls.
 
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Befuddled Halfling said:
TL;DR – any chance you could cast your mind back to (say) the 4 boars that guard the transition between the farm and the bandit camp, and tell me how that battle should go? What are the boars doing, and how do you counter it. Retard-friendly pointers, max 2 reloads allowed on default difficulty.

I just used the bow (or was that a crossbow? can't remember) to kill a couple and ran like a bitch when they got near. I think two survived but I avoided them. It was night so I fell down a ravine (the 360 version has an achievement for doing this five times, "Idiot") and ended up at the farm.
 

Zlaja

Arcane
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You should definitely avoid fighting with staves. Only real men fight with staves.
 
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Coyote said:
Smithing 2 is useful for everyone because it enables you to produce rings that increase your armor by 8; two of these are almost equivalent to getting an upgrade to your armor, and there are fewer ways to boost your armor in the game than there are to boost your damage, so this can make a big difference. Smithing 3 is useful for melee fighters because it enables you to produce a +15 strength amulet and two-handed swords, including the most powerful sword you can obtain until chapter 4.

Thanks Coyote (and Nim and Kraszu) you guys have obviously had a lot of fun with this game, and I'm armed with some interesting tips now, with your posts. Perhaps the game's other qualities do compensate for its twitchiness, and it seems there are ways to tip the combat scales a bit more in your favor (compared to my 'tourist' build). Last question - should I play the fully community patched G3 before I retry Risen? I heard (here I believe) that in G3 you get more powerful as the game progresses, which might help in bonding with the combat system a bit more?

--AH
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
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right here brah
I think Risen was boring and bland. It's like they didn't even try to make something interesting. But i don't know, maybe it's because of all that legal shebang with JoWood, maybe they were in a haste to create a new pseudo-Gothic franchise to keep their fanbase.

Anyway, no interesting and memorable characters, all female models are ugly, and some male models differ only by their beards/mustaches. Almost no interesting quests, and that division between Order, Mages and Bandits looked so artificial. It's like there is no world with fractions in it, there is world of fractions. Design is weird, what they wanted to create, some sort of Spanish medieval? Also, Lighthouse and Jack... just like in G2-G3. In three games in a row. Why? Is he some kind of mascot? It looked like self-plagiarizing to me back then.

Combat is much smoother than in G2-G3, that's for sure. But again, fucking animals. Fights with armed humans are fun tho, and they explained combat moves in tutorial messages.

Also, smithing sucks. I expected a lot of money just like in G2, but got nothin' :?

Edit:
Smithing 2 is useful for everyone because it enables you to produce rings that increase your armor by 8; two of these are almost equivalent to getting an upgrade to your armor, and there are fewer ways to boost your armor in the game than there are to boost your damage, so this can make a big difference. Smithing 3 is useful for melee fighters because it enables you to produce a +15 strength amulet and two-handed swords, including the most powerful sword you can obtain until chapter 4.
Lol, pardon my greed :smug:
 

CorpseZeb

Learned
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RP-3
Befuddled Halfling said:
Last question - should I play the fully community patched G3 before I retry Risen? I heard (here I believe) that in G3 you get more powerful as the game progresses, which might help in bonding with the combat system a bit more?

Whoa! Rather play first Risen than Gothic 3 (CP flavour of course). I'd say, where Gothic 3 is an adult, Risen is more a children entity, more a miniature of Gothic 3, more like kindergarten experience preparing player before full glory of Gothic'que RPG style. Sort like this. Risen is much smaller, way easier and more focused game (or more streamlined as one can say).
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Befuddled Halfling said:
Or at least for fucks sake don't make threads about how retarded Skyrim combat is, because that will also definitely use block attack dodge instead of (*hyperbole, but only slight) background dice rolls.
The biggest difference is that Gothic/Risen provide you with animated visual feedback whereas Oblivion/Skyrim provide none.

Also I've said this several times before but Risen combat sucks because everything can be defeated with the "circle-strafe with shield up and charge attack" tactic. It's whackamole.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,701
With small problem of sword users would get a charge attack quite late, and axe users would get use of shield with better axes late as well.

And you can't switch weapons to use optimal weapon for the job, in few situation where it would be reasonable, because skill points are limited and you don't have enough of them for filling all magic paths. In fact when you'd like to learn both swords and at least one magic school, you'd have strong problems.
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
453
Befuddled Halfling said:
Thanks Coyote (and Nim and Kraszu) you guys have obviously had a lot of fun with this game, and I'm armed with some interesting tips now, with your posts. Perhaps the game's other qualities do compensate for its twitchiness, and it seems there are ways to tip the combat scales a bit more in your favor (compared to my 'tourist' build).
Way I see it there are three reasons to play a PB game, twitchy melee combat, exploration and atmosphere ( german VA adds quite a bit here ). I don't think Risen has good enough atmo and exploration if you don't like the combat system, G2 NotR is way ahead there and at least regarding atmosphere G1 is even better.
Last question - should I play the fully community patched G3 before I retry Risen? I heard (here I believe) that in G3 you get more powerful as the game progresses, which might help in bonding with the combat system a bit more?

--AH
:D Combat system there is an atrocity imo. But go ahead, give it a try, you might like it.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Roguey said:
Befuddled Halfling said:
Or at least for fucks sake don't make threads about how retarded Skyrim combat is, because that will also definitely use block attack dodge instead of (*hyperbole, but only slight) background dice rolls.
The biggest difference is that Gothic/Risen provide you with animated visual feedback whereas Oblivion/Skyrim provide none.

Also I've said this several times before but Risen combat sucks because everything can be defeated with the "circle-strafe with shield up and charge attack" tactic. It's whackamole.

You still can get surrounded, shield doesn't block everything, you learn charge attack late into the game, and no shields when you use staves, and no shields for a long time when you use axes (you should never be able to use shields with them but still that is at near the end of the game).
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
Befuddled Halfling said:
Thanks Coyote (and Nim and Kraszu) you guys have obviously had a lot of fun with this game, and I'm armed with some interesting tips now, with your posts. Perhaps the game's other qualities do compensate for its twitchiness, and it seems there are ways to tip the combat scales a bit more in your favor (compared to my 'tourist' build). Last question - should I play the fully community patched G3 before I retry Risen? I heard (here I believe) that in G3 you get more powerful as the game progresses, which might help in bonding with the combat system a bit more?

No prob.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Gothic 3; even with the community patch, I don't find the combat as enjoyable, and while it has a large world that's fun to explore, lots of little design decisions like randomized loot and repetitive MMO-style quests make it less fulfilling for me.

I do like Gothic 1 and 2, though.
 

Roguey

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Raghar said:
And you can't switch weapons to use optimal weapon for the job, in few situation where it would be reasonable, because skill points are limited and you don't have enough of them for filling all magic paths. In fact when you'd like to learn both swords and at least one magic school, you'd have strong problems.
I did just fine with bringing swords to 7 and frost magic to 10, no need for anything else. Fortunately sword fighting in Risen also counts towards blunt maces for the few times where you need one.

Kraszu said:
You still can get surrounded, shield doesn't block everything, you learn charge attack late into the game, and no shields when you use staves, and no shields for a long time when you use axes (you should never be able to use shields with them but still that is at near the end of the game).
a) Kiting and choke points at first, then I just used frost magic b) that's what double tap dodging is for c) make do with just chipping the health away with regular attacks (preferably to the back) until then d) staves are completely worthless and no one should ever use them. Never bothered with axes since I correctly assumed that swords would be the most supported weapon as they usually are.

If the combat was any good then chapter 3 and 4 wouldn't be almost universally considered crap (and PB wouldn't be streamlining shields out of the sequel). But it isn't, so it isn't.
 

Metro

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I'll agree that shield blocking is too powerful in Risen. You can basically just stand there forever and wait for the most opportune moment. Obviously it would be better with some kind of mechanic/meter that limited the amount of blows you could take before you're knocked off balance or something but... it certainly isn't the biggest issue in the game.

CorpseZeb said:
Whoa! Rather play first Risen than Gothic 3 (CP flavour of course). I'd say, where Gothic 3 is an adult, Risen is more a children entity, more a miniature of Gothic 3, more like kindergarten experience preparing player before full glory of Gothic'que RPG style.

If Gothic 3 is an 'adult' than it's an adult with severe emotional and mental problems and a few chemical addictions thrown in to boot. As far as being more 'Gothic' like, I'd say the only place G3 has Risen beat is world size (which, again, is ruined by randomized loot, MMO type questing, and a lot of empty space).
 

Secretninja

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I played it until my not removed from inventory copy quit working and I lost my saves. Was p. fun.

One thing I didn't like was the first few levels of swords seemed shitty as balls, so I assumed all combat skills were shitty. Then later when I ran out of stuff to put points into I started putting points into swords and It got really good...
 

CorpseZeb

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Metro said:
If Gothic 3 is an 'adult' than it's an adult with severe emotional and mental problems and a few chemical addictions thrown in to boot. As far as being more 'Gothic' like, I'd say the only place G3 has Risen beat is world size (which, again, is ruined by randomized loot, MMO type questing, and a lot of empty space).


... Tourette syndrome or not, schizophrenic or not... but still an "adult" entity. We haven't many games like G3, offering waste open world without "guides and markers," without any "strong, rich and of course banal story, dragged player from point A to B" (in many ways, G3 story is facultative not obligatory one). Recently, I played Two Worlds II and while is it a fair game, more I played the more I appreciated freedom and scale of G3. Not perfected form of freedom and scale, but there is. Care to enlist some similar but modern RPG? Divinity 2? Not, because it is more focused and more story driven. Risen? Too small and too short. 2w2? No, it seems to have a really big word at the first glance, but at the end of day, world isn't that big (size of Oblivion, I think, maybe smaller) and not much to do within it. Oblivion? Nah. Daggerfall only comes to mind or Morrowind, but they are older games. At the end, more time passed, more greatness I see in G3, despite its obvious and many flaws.
 

Kraszu

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Roguey said:
b) that's what double tap dodging is for

So in other words it isn't just hiding behind your shield.

Roguey said:
c) make do with just chipping the health away with regular attacks (preferably to the back) until then d) staves are completely worthless and no one should ever use them. Never bothered with axes since I correctly assumed that swords would be the most supported weapon as they usually are.

You can finish the game with staves, and the gameplay is best when using them. I treat it as extra challenge.

Roguey said:
If the combat was any good then chapter 3 and 4 wouldn't be almost universally considered crap (and PB wouldn't be streamlining shields out of the sequel). But it isn't, so it isn't.

If TB combat would be better then RTwP then it would be universally consider as better, and used more then RTwP. Chapter 3, and 4 are worse to me because I don't play PB only for combat.
 

ValeVelKal

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Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
I was bored to death before finishing G3, but I understand people liking it due to its size and the number of places you can go to.

One of the issues I had with Risen is how you had to draw your sword and fight your way every 10 seconds - there was like a pack of wolves, birdies or a pair of boars every 15 meters. At least they did not respawn. It was the same, to a lesser extent, in the Gothic games, so PB needs to improve there. Morrowind, or even God forbid Oblivion, had the good balance in my humble opinion. The cliff-racerswere a nuisance, but they were only in an area of the game that was supposed to be dangerous, and in which you would only go for a few quests, except at the end of the game.

Also, I found that "challenging" combats were rare - either the enemy was so weak you would kill it/him quickly, or so powerful you just ran away or opted for the save-scumming solution if that's your thing. This is hard to avoid in a pure "sandbox game" without level-scaling, so I give them a pass. Animals at the very beginning and lizardmen at the end of the game qualify as "challenging yet defeatable" enemies, but unfortunately by that point they were the only enemies the game threw at you (with they weird pets) so it became boring.
 

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