Let's discuss (PCgames) fandom

[Cadmus]

Eh, do you feel like there's nothing you can do but endure? Like 'Endure, in enduring, grow strong." and shit like that?

Because let me tell you, that is one stage of being depressed.

=/ well..uh I've been feeling like that since I can remember, isn't that how everyone feels?

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

I'm an Arcanum fanboy but I don't deny that its combat is crappy and the world map could have been downsized to make the content seem more dense.

So how does your fandom manifest? Is it really a fandom? How do you separate yourself from what I agree is retarded fandom of bioware for example? I guess it might have to do something with them not allowing for negative feedback about the games, which really irritates me in everything in life. "if you don't have anything nice to say, shut up, troll"
Maybe a good answer would be that a good fandom is being critical while slurping the shit and bad fandom is overlooking everything that's wrong?

I must say that this topic has kept growing in my mind from the moment I realized how some people blindly defend Skyrim which I thought was utter disgrace but then I found myself defending Max Payne 3 because I like Max Payne, and I couldn't understand how people can't see that it's good. But it shouldn't matter whether I like it because the discussion reveals its many flaws. And I get angry with people and with myself because they are attacking something that I like and thought I was right about, but in fact it's a retarded PC game and I should see that.

And as I grow older, I stop having time to fuck around in games for no reason, because I know it's not a background to some epic story full of intricate metaphors and such, evoking real life events and if not that, at least being a part of a hugely important cultural phenomenon. For example reading Silmalirion, which is a bunch of fluff for LotR seems to me 300 times preferable to reading retarded fan fiction in Morrowind ingame books, because while both serve to enrich their vehicles and add background, Morrowind is a retarded, broken, ugly unimportant game. Also relevant is the level of writing in both of these, where Morrowind is like reading toilet stall graffiti when compared to Tolkien.

How can I even remotely like this? How can I be a fan if the instant I start thinking about it, the whole thing falls apart?

Since Jarl mentioned it have you played, say, Arcanum(MotB, Bloodlines, ect)? Those games have shit combat(relatively speaking) but were enjoyable and had huge potential... In fact part of why I liked Arcanum so much(my top cRPG) was the evolutionary path it had set upon, it tried to do so much of what I would arguably call the quintessential cRPG - even if it fell short of what it tried to accomplish.

I think to understand fandom or fanatacism you have to understand the target group, codexers have been starved of the games they crave for som time. So they're hungry, anrgy and hostile - you know the perfect makings of a doomsday cult.

 

[Telengard]

People play games to be entertained and to compete. And not just computer games, game games. Poker, backgammon, baseball, bridge, horse racing, et al. To look at everything and rate it on how much it stimulates you intellectually or emotionally is a neat exercise, but it misses the point of entertainment. People pursue games because they are fun, and having fun is one of the general needs people want to fulfill.

Some entertainment does include a high intellectual content, some doesn't. Same with emotional. That intellectual or emotional content is an important element in who will find that game entertaining, but it is hardly the sole value of a game. Chess isn't very emotionally satisfying, but that doesn't mean it lacks value as a game. Nothing can satisfy everything, since the pursuit of one aspect will invariably cause other aspects to be neglected. But having something not be there doesn't change the value of what is there. People don't want and value the same things, and they don't want and need the same things all the time. If you are seeking intellectually stimulating games, they are out there, but one must step out of the action and exploration games and especially the console ports (like Max Payne 3) to find them.

Now, when it comes to fans, fandom comes in many flavors. There are some who will blindly and fanatically ignore any weaknesses. And there are some who can't take any criticism of the object of their affection, as it hurts their personal pride. But such blind worship isn't necessary to enjoy something. Though some individuals may not be able to express their liking of something in any other way. If something satisfies your entertainment needs of the moment, then it is doing its job.

The Codex does look at things more critically than in most forums, but you have to look at the views of its members in consensus. The Codex looks at things more critically because it contains a multitude of viewpoints and those viewpoints can be freely expressed. Plus it contains a large ratio of oldfags, who have a lot of games experience to draw from. Not because everyone will come to some sort of agreement about anything.

Of particular note. Console ports are a common stickler for old PC gamers, though. Consoles, with their limited number of inputs, their less precise joystick controls, and their developer's pursuit of flash over gameplay or even style (which is weird but true), tend to have games of a much simpler nature that are designed solely for flash appeal - much like a summer Hollywood blockbuster. Which doesn't mean that every PC game is inherently superior to a console game, but it does mean that PC games overall tend to be more sophisticated than their console counterparts (and the console ports, by definition).

 

[TheGreatOne]

You should only play roguelikes and text adventures, that way you don't have to stress over that stuff because they strip out all the useless fluff and focus on gameplay/writing.

Of particular note. Console ports are a common stickler for old PC gamers, though. Consoles, with their limited number of inputs, their less precise joystick controls, and their developer's pursuit of flash over gameplay or even style (which is weird but true)....

It's not precision where consoles are lacking but limited input. Or it depends on the genre really, naturally mouse is superior for pointing at things. But with joysticks and arcade sticks you can implement movement in a more gradual (and therefore precise) manner (ie on PC ctrl+W is sneak, W is move forward and shift+W is run forward, where as you can have more variety when you push an analogue stick forward, going slowly from barely moving to sprinting). Same applies for gameplay, atleast in the 80s and early 90s: PC games were more clunky and the games with most fluid controls and precise gameplay were on consoles (plenty of shit too, talking about SMB/MM2 level games here). If you're talking about FPS, RTS or strategy games or something, then it's a completely different subject.

 

[DalekFlay]

I think it's a rare person on here who doesn't see the faults of venerated classics like Morrowind and Fallout. I have argued with a few for sure, and their blindness is off-putting, but for the vast majority of people here it's easy to admit Morrowind's faults, then explain why we love the game anyway. Usually that has to do with the faults being in areas we don't care as much about (realistic combat) and the quality being in areas we do care a lot about (world building).

This is why many a Codexer dismisses a modern game entirely because of certain aspects, like a quest arrow or bad level design, because he/she considers that stuff more important than what the modern game is doing right. The new Thief looks gorgeous and at its heart is still about sneaking around guards, for sure, but if the level design is absolutely terrible can any of it be enjoyed? I don't think that's really about being a Thief fanboy but about loving Thief because of it's vast open and well designed levels and then being confronted with a Thief which has none of that. It's not your fanboyism that has been betrayed necessarily, it's your enjoyment factor. When a modern sequel gets things right for the series, like say Deus Ex: Human Revolution, you will see a ton of people here acknowledge that and enjoy the game, even if they bitch about certain modern trappings that are annoying like the cover system.

There are always idiots who blindly hate change or who are such a fanboy for one thing they ignore its faults and competitor's positives. Welcome to the internet. However I think the Codex has less of them, not more, on average.

 

[Turjan]

And late at night, I wonder if I'm posting in a thread full of Drog alts. Life is weird...

 

[theSavant]

PC Games are fucking worthless and I think that for killing time, you should choose something that allows you to intellectually grow as well and games are not there yet.

You actually do grow intellectually and train your mind. But mostly only on the very first run-through. Not on the 2nd one, because you know 90% already. Not much to grow or experience. Fandom comes when we experience a good first walkthrough despite all limitations, but there are games that don't even deliver that.

 

[Western]

I'm interested in and kinda need to reconcile myself with the idea of fandom and what it does.
Mainly because even here, I encounter it and I don't know what to make of it.

You all bitch about biodrones in their glorification of stupid shit, yet even here I find instances of fandom, where people love Morrowind, love Fallout yet easily overlook their incredible shitty aspects while claiming superiority to other fans of shittier franchises, when it's obvious those choose to overlook different aspects of their franchise, thus allowing themselves to love something that's not bad.

So here's my train of thought on this and I don't know what to make of it.

I think all this kinda says that fandom is necessarily a little bit blind and a little bit stupid. I guess it's a sliding scale with one end being the complete retards who attach their love and sense of identity onto any franchise/something no matter how flawed and on the other end, people who allow themselves to love something only when its flaws are absolutely minimal.

The problem also seems to be that people need to love their franchise, they can hardly just enjoy it while they admit to themselves that it's pretty shit. People do this with other things that are not the focus of their main fandom, but not with the main object of their worship. People get angry over it, and I even found myself getting angry over some discussions of some games, like Homam4 and how is it possible that people can't see how good it is.

I kinda thought this was a place of critical thinking like no other game forum anywhere, but it's not that much true for some games.

Is it better to force myself to critically look at EVERYTHING I play/do/listen to/watch? Because to tell you the truth, if I critically look at some games I used to consider amazing, I start fucking hating them, and this includes Wizardry 8, Morrowind and some other stuff. This means I get fucking bored playing them or even thinking about them, because if you take a really close look, they're fucking stupid, dumb and completely meaningless and provide no emotional or intellectual stimuli, or hardly any. Should I do this to myself? If I don't, I have to question my integrity and yours as well, but if I do, everything is shit. PC Games are fucking worthless and I think that for killing time, you should choose something that allows you to intellectually grow as well and games are not there yet.

A good solution seems to me to attach your fandom to a particular mechanic, like turn based tactical combat, but that hardly supports one's fandom. And I want to like shit, I want to be able to actually say I like this game, not just, if I'm being totally honest, say "I liked the combat but the story, graphics and everything else was completely shit". Then I can't become a fan. I'm not a fan of almost anything and I don't know if I should want to be.

I don't know, help me out here...

 

[Markman]

Nostalgia plays a bit part in favorite games, for that reason you should not replay those games so you dont ruin the feeling you got when playing those games for the first time.
I love Fallout 1 and 2 but last time I played one of em was maybe 10 years ago. Same with Vietcong, still no AK-47s sound like they did in that game. Could sit 12-24 hours straight playing Alpha Centauri finishing a big game in one sitting.
If you feel jaded and irritated when playing games then stop and find something else to do. I play games to have fun, to enjoy them and if I like em enough I'll beat them.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Blobert it's not like I'm a basement dweller who needs to base his sense of identity on games, but I'd like to be able to enjoy them again with a critical mind, but if I try really hard to be objective, it seems almost impossible to justify spending 3 hours of my time on 2 combat encounters in Wizardry 8 while I have a backlog of canon to read, music to learn and good movies to watch.

As if your time is that valuable to begin with. If you can't forgive yourself for playing some game unless it is an intellectually stimulating activity that you can make a critical analysis of, then you are already dead and there's no need for you to wonder what to do with your life. Go haunt some ruins or something

 

[Ninjerk]

You figured out that being a fan is pointless and unrewarding. What's left to ponder?

 

[laclongquan]

Eh, do you feel like there's nothing you can do but endure? Like 'Endure, in enduring, grow strong." and shit like that?

Because let me tell you, that is one stage of being depressed.

=/ well..uh I've been feeling like that since I can remember, isn't that how everyone feels?

Actually, no. I've many times felt like a million dollar when I'm working in a lowpaying job, grinning all day long. That's when I am in high school, sometime in Uni, and once or twice while working. so no. If you feel enduring is your basic state, you gotta get checked. Or just raise your default blood sugar level 1st thing in the morning.

 

[Night Goat]

fandom

 

[Cadmus]

Is it better to force myself to critically look at EVERYTHING I play/do/listen to/watch? Because to tell you the truth, if I critically look at some games I used to consider amazing, I start fucking hating them, and this includes Wizardry 8, Morrowind and some other stuff. This means I get fucking bored playing them or even thinking about them, because if you take a really close look, they're fucking stupid, dumb and completely meaningless and provide no emotional or intellectual stimuli, or hardly any. Should I do this to myself?

Criticizing everything is good, because after you've torn apart all the stuff you love (or thought you loved), everything that you can still enjoy after that is pure gold.

Unfortunately, video games tend to have a much lower "hit rate" than other media in general, so taking this approach to videogames results in having about 3 games that you actually like and hating the rest.

I agree that this would seem to be the best approach, but as you've pointed out, it gets you nowhere with PC games. So I've decided to fuck that.

And late at night, I wonder if I'm posting in a thread full of Drog alts. Life is weird...

One day I want to learn who is this mythical Drog. Is it even a real person or just a sort of creation myth of Codex? There was Drog and he said, Let there be light! But instead of light, filthy creatures risen from the ground and devoured Drog. Then Codex was born and to this day there is only hate and hunger... eh eh chi chi.

Used to like this kind of conversation quite a lot. Like, let's write 5000 lines on how fanbases tend to love the first product in an IP and then like any "conservative improvements" but hate to death all kinds of change, creating divisive lines between real old school fans and apologists. My balls are way too wrinkly for this now, don't care anymore, don't have the necessary patience to, I just want to play some games, if it's good you keep playing, if it's bad you don't even touch it or uninstall. Other people's thoughts and hiveminds can go suck dick for all I care. Fanbases are like the derpiest family reunions. It's really shit if you're not part of it, and it's potentially shit if you are, but you kinda feel at home anyway. Your retarded cousins vomited all over the carpet, but hey, they're your cousins! Blood of your blood!

I kinda thought this was a place of critical thinking like no other game forum anywhere

What's wrong with you? Stop taking the Codex that seriously, this is the funniest place to follow game related stuff but not some kind of Scientific den of balls deep game analysis that'll shape the face of social studies for the next 150 years. And thankfully so, this would be the least amusing corner of the internet if it was like that. Fucking pretentious "game theorists" faggots that don't know shit about anything thinking their deep thoughts are worth anything.

Is it better to force myself to critically look at EVERYTHING I play/do/listen to/watch? Because to tell you the truth, if I critically look at some games I used to consider amazing, I start fucking hating them, and this includes Wizardry 8, Morrowind and some other stuff.

Then don't. Some of the greatest entertainment you can get in your life is retarded if you really think about it. In fact, the overwhelmingly largest part of it is.

Well, obviously every person goes through some development, so it stands to reason we arrive at a similar threshold and wonder about things only to later, when we have decided, discard the discussion and forget how it was when we were young. The same has happened to me with discussing bullshit like religion, and I'm sure I will move on, but it doesn't hurt to think about things once in a while, does it? For example look at me, trying to use a little more complex vocabulary than I can handle for the sake of practice and precision when after gaining more experience, I will fuck it and just spam every thread with "banal shit boring, fuck you faggots".

But I agree, I've been taking it too seriously but only because I have not seen any other place people even bother with critical thinking about games, it's all just a circlejerk (yes, it's the same here, but far less of it).

Secondly, I must withdraw my complaint about ALL of the game writing being retarded. This thread has convinced me that indeed entertainment is allowed to be silly, and something clicked in me and I went and finished Bloodlines and behold, the dialogues were good good, not video game good. I guess my memory was tainted with hatred!
Now, finally for like the 5th time it seems I'm able to play planetscape tournament! And again I must admit the dialogues are good and the fluff text is good. And I'm having fun.

Eh, do you feel like there's nothing you can do but endure? Like 'Endure, in enduring, grow strong." and shit like that?

Because let me tell you, that is one stage of being depressed.

I just got the party member in PST who says this! I had no idea!
Things I have learned on Codex: 1) fun can be retarded, 2) take anti-depressants
Thanks!

 

[RK47]

Being a fan means you sometimes forgive too much.

 

[Cadmus]

You figured out that being a fan is pointless and unrewarding. What's left to ponder?

But it's not, it's very rewarding!
Except for maybe being a fan of a goddamn corporation like Valve or Apple, I can't see what's gained there.

 

[laclongquan]

Eh, do you feel like there's nothing you can do but endure? Like 'Endure, in enduring, grow strong." and shit like that?

Because let me tell you, that is one stage of being depressed.

I just got the party member in PST who says this! I had no idea!
Things I have learned on Codex: 1) fun can be retarded, 2) take anti-depressants
Thanks!

Fun is fun and retard is retard. those are two different aspect of a game. Nothing say you can not have retardedly fun time with a game, like smashing angels with Bayonetta or drool over naked chicks in modded games.

As for anti-depressants, I am too cautious to have drugs without doctor's appointment, and too paranoid to allow a stranger diagnose my mental state.

 

[nomask7]

Challenge and beating games can be, not only fun, but psychologically fulfilling. Modern men don't get much of a sense of fulfilment from real life so it would be understandable if they turned to games. It's a pity that challenging games are kind of a thing of the past these days.

What sets some games apart and makes them worthwhile in addition to their challenge is not writing or story or characters, but game mechanics and how fun they are to play. This makes them different from other entertainment, even if a reductionist would say they are still about fun when they are not about challenge. Anyway, if games are fun to play, they are already somewhat successful as games.

If you want anything more than entertainment and challenge, I believe you should look elsewhere. Challenge is undeniably an aspect that games do better than movies and literature. You can make a book long and hard to read, but this sort of thing easily ends up with the reader merely annoyed and giving up.

What CRPGs have a potential to do well while they may seem to be failing at game mechanics is providing a motivating and cool background for the challenge. It's a different thing to be challenged by an epic thing like Grimoire than by Daredevil Donut Lad. But again, they tend to be very easy "everybody beats these" type of games these days. And even with the older titles, you may be tempted to spoil everything by consulting a walkthrough now and then in the age of the internet.

 

[Drew]

I'm not a fan of almost anything and I don't know if I should want to be.

I don't know, help me out here...

If nothing jumps out at you, that's it, you're done. Why would you want to be a fan of something for the sake of being a fan?