Magic: What is it? Where does it come from?

[SimpleComplexity]

Exactly. No explanation is better than a retarded explanation. That doesn't mean i like magic unexplained.
My wish for the future is just people put more effort into their worlds, that's all i'm really asking for.

(I wonder if AoD has any explanation for their low-magic world
Inbefore VD redesigns the whole game )

 

[Dire Roach]

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will. Best. Explanation. Ever. LOL

Hint: that's not an explanation. Like at all.

PS: I read your entire post, don't worry.

I don't see why it's so terrible. essentially it's psychic or telekinetic ability.

It can be like psyonics or telekinesis, but it's not exactly like that either. The thing is, according to M:tA, any metaphysical explanation for magic that goes beyond the basic idea that it's your willpower that allows you to make changes to reality, is entirely subjective. Mages cling to those types of explanations (alchemy, voodoo, superscience, etc.) because it's very difficult to make magic work when there isn't a specific set of ideas attached to it. They need a complex paradigm that their will can focus on.

Actually, deniszi, one big component of M:tA's system deals with ideas that are very similar to those you described about Teudogar. In the game's setting, magic is more likely to work when non-mages who are witnessing it believe that what you're trying to do with magic is plausible, even if they don't believe in magic. Let's say your mage is a Jesus-like miracle worker. When you're in a church full of faithful Christians it will be very easy for you to work your magic. In most public places, however, few people believe in miracles so it will be much more difficult to make your magic work the first time you try it in front of them.

The idea behind this is that reality is shaped according to the blob of consciousness of the masses. If the general public believes that dragons exist, then there would be many reports of dragon sightings in the sky. The game assumes that most people believe the world works according to the laws of science in modern times, so that's why things work that way. If the vast majority of people could be convinced that eating mountain yak penis allows you to fly like Superman, then it would be true as well.

 

[Phelot]

That reminds me of a few scenes in PST, like when one of your past incarnations convinces some guy he doesn't exist and so *poof* he doesn't.

I can see a sort of willpower based mage type, someone born with the ability to change their surroundings through will alone, leveling up so he can better control and focus his will to do more and greater things.

Actually, isn't that what the Sorcerer class was in DnD?

 

[denizsi]

What a banal boring shit drivel of self-worship the Earthsea books were.

Doesn't that apply only to the later books - "Tehanu" and "The Other Wind", where Le Guin went herp derp feminist in stark contrast with the earlier parts of the series? I still enjoyed them ( ) but herp derp feminist was duly noted.

I didn't read beyond The Farting Shore so I can only believe in your word that the series even transcends herp-a-derpin'.

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will. Best. Explanation. Ever. LOL

Hint: that's not an explanation. Like at all.

PS: I read your entire post, don't worry.

I don't see why it's so terrible. essentially it's psychic or telekinetic ability.

See, that's not an explanation, it's embellished drivel the way he wrote it as perceived by different characters.

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will. Best. Explanation. Ever. LOL

Hint: that's not an explanation. Like at all.

PS: I read your entire post, don't worry.

I don't see why it's so terrible. essentially it's psychic or telekinetic ability.

It can be like psyonics or telekinesis, but it's not exactly like that either. The thing is, according to M:tA, any metaphysical explanation for magic that goes beyond the basic idea that it's your willpower that allows you to make changes to reality, is entirely subjective. Mages cling to those types of explanations (alchemy, voodoo, superscience, etc.) because it's very difficult to make magic work when there isn't a specific set of ideas attached to it. They need a complex paradigm that their will can focus on.

Actually, deniszi, one big component of M:tA's system deals with ideas that are very similar to those you described about Teudogar. In the game's setting, magic is more likely to work when non-mages who are witnessing it believe that what you're trying to do with magic is plausible, even if they don't believe in magic. Let's say your mage is a Jesus-like miracle worker. When you're in a church full of faithful Christians it will be very easy for you to work your magic. In most public places, however, few people believe in miracles so it will be much more difficult to make your magic work the first time you try it in front of them.

The idea behind this is that reality is shaped according to the blob of consciousness of the masses. If the general public believes that dragons exist, then there would be many reports of dragon sightings in the sky. The game assumes that most people believe the world works according to the laws of science in modern times, so that's why things work that way. If the vast majority of people could be convinced that eating mountain yak penis allows you to fly like Superman, then it would be true as well.

That sounds much better. Thanks for the effort, too.

 

[Mrowak]

As I see it there are two right ways to incorporate magic into a setting, be it a book, movie or cRPG game.

According to the teachings of the first school magic is the incomprehensible, mysterious, mesmerizing, dangerous, treacherous and unknown. It is embodiment of all that we humans experience, sometimes even on a daily basis but find it hard to label. Feelings, strange premonitions, different sensations, dreams and everything other which is embeded into human psyche but cannot be called by name lest the word deprives it of original meaning.

In this view magic surrounds every human activity, shapes it, influences human outlook on life even to the point when it starts constituting the basis of morality and even law for the given community. Yes, it is very strongly connected with religion sometimes becoming synonymus to religious spirituality.

A mage in this interpretation assumes two roles - someone exceptional blessed by the spirits with extraordinary abilities and / or someone who simply possesses vast knowledge about spiritual matters - ancient rites, codes of conduct towards supernatural beings (be it gods, fairies, devils, ghost etc). These roles are not necessarily exclussive though may be. As a matter of fact it appears that it was common belief from ancient times till Age of Reason (and even much much later!) that anyone can perform an act of magic or rather cause it to be performed, even ignorantly. If such a thing happened, whether it was human's fault or not it wizard's / shaman's / priest's / inquisitor's / buddhist monk's / seer's job to deal with the consequences and pacify / banish supernatural powers.

This approach is, in my view extremely difficult to present convincingly - the (script)writer must really know his trade well in order to allow for perfect suspension of disbelief in audience. Though rare there are some cases of this kind of magick being realised superbly well in various media. Silent Hill and Fatal Frame series strike me as perfect specimen of this genre in gaming. The Void / Tension / Turgor also fits right there. In books and comicbooks, pretty much everything written by Gaiman comes to my mind.

Another 'correct' way to show magic is presenting it simply as natural, 'scientific' phenomena. This is especially popular in all kinds of sci-fi settings. Ther magic becomes 'psionics', 'bionics' or 'psychocinesics' - a talent, often dormant which is brought out by some sort of device, implant, genetic modification etc. In fantasy setting such methods are frequently unnecessary - grueling training is enough.

'Scientific' magic is different from the previous sort in that everything in it is clear and understandable. If not to the audience, or the other characters than at the very least to the mage himself. The reader may not know how the wizard managed to cast the fireball - for obvious reasons - but it will be somehow implied that there was science somewhere in it. Perhaps that fireball was created through psychokinetic manipulation on molecule level which caused the masses of air to heat up and ignite themselves. Maybe that rock is hovering because it is being pushed by the masses of the same air the mage with his psychic powers. Or it contained large quantities of iron which allowed for it being temporarily magnetised and pulled away from the other stone with the same charge. Though far-fetched (especially coming from me ) these explanations often suffice for suspension of disbelief.

Examples of this type of magic employed in media include: System Shock series, X-Com, Battle Star Galactica, Large portion of Raimond E. Feist 'Riftwar Saga', and surprise, surpise second half of Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.

There is also the third 'right' way which is, let's face it predominant in all kinds of sci-fi media. Mix of both of the abovementioned styles. It will always vary in degrees. There are plenty of examples out there. Pick one. My two favourite are: 'Planescape: Torment' - with its constant clash between 'scientific' and 'supernatural' approach to magic (inclines towards supernatural much more) and A. Sapkowski's 'Hussites Saga' - magic in medical treatment, assassination, espionage, and as a viable 'scientific' method in pursuit of the knowledge about the world contrasted with seemingly primitive but all the same bafflingly powerful and ellusive practices of a - say - village witch (inclines towards scientific interpretation by very small margin).

One treatment on magic I simply cannot stand, and which is becoming sadly predominant in every recent fantasy production I've seen recently is when it becomes a tool with no justification in the setting. Magic sits out there only to explain all the 'kewl' shit occuring on your screen. As a result you mage can assplode volcanoes into existence, bombard enemies with commets, nuke them with fireballs without anyone giving a shit what consequences of these actions - for simple reason - there are none. Initially jRPGs were at fault but now to my mind MMORPGs are to blame. Hence, instead of a Mage, Shaman, or Priest we get 'Mobile artillery platform', 'buffer', and 'healer' - these characters are no longer spell casters - they become tropes. You cannot harm magic more in any sci-fi / fantasy setting than by reducing it to "click - fireball, - click - protection spell, click - healing spell, click - mana potion, click - fireball" rinse and repeat.

 

[J1M]

Besides religion today is about spirituality. This is its main selling point. Accompanying supernatural phenomena are but a part of the recipe.

Spirituality is merely what religious nonsense-magic-talk has been rebranded as scientific knowledge has permeated the general population so they can turn off their brains and accept the guilt lectures.

 

[J1M]

Magic is a magic because it's illogical and cannot be explained. You can't tell how it works because there is nothing that makes it work - it just does. Magic was a mystery since ancient and still is (you can count religions as magic imo as well, believers can't explain how god etc works but it just does and it's impossible to prove god does work although some claim that there's no question it does).

Books/movies/games show magic as shiny balls of fire but it's pretty same thing.

gotta go will finish later

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

Wrong magic is consorting with demons to subverte the natural order, miracles are intercessions of faith.
Nvermind that the Vatican Chief exorcist stated clearly that you must be gifted for practicing exorcisms, so faith alone is not enough.

Hey look, you were right a christian popped up to explain its about faith.

 

[J1M]

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

Religions believe in something which may or may not exist.
Wizards know magic exists and they use it and they know how to use it because they know what magic is and how it works.

You don't want realistic magic. Sort of the definition of magic is that which breaks or bends the laws of physics -- so it's by definition unrealistic.

We consider things realistic because it's realistic for our own laws of physics. The worlds and laws where magic exists are realistic too in their own sense. We can't understand them unless the creator of the setting explains it. He created the setting thusly everything he writes down on his paper is a fact. The problem here is the people who create those settings are retards or lazy. A wizard can shoot lightning bolts yet the author of the setting creates a lowtechnology world where electricity as we know it is unknown. He tells us that wizards can shoot fireballs by waving their hands when you ask him "How did he do that?" he replies with "That? Oh that's just magic."

You can ask a cook the same question "How did you do that?" , "I just did it"
Or when Michael Jordon makes another slamdunk "How did he do that?" "Magic bro Magic"

So that is why some more well developed "magic systems" mention a "source" of power - extradimensional, demons, gods, etc.

The sad truth is circa 95% of all magic settings aren't well developed.

Generally good post, but incorrect use of circa puts a large blemish on it.

 

[Dire Roach]

Actually, isn't that what the Sorcerer class was in DnD?

I'm not sure about sorcerers in earlier editions but 3rd and 4th ed. D&D sorcs are just douchebags who are born with the ability to cast arcane spells without any kind of education or training.

BTW in case anyone's interested in checking out Mage: The Ascension fluff, stick with the 2nd ed. books. Most people seem to agree that 3rd ed. Mage suffered a sharp decline in fluff quality.

 

[deuxhero]

My questions:
a) How would you design "realistic" magic ? What is it? Where does it come from?
b) Do you know any settings (books/movies) where the source of magic is explained and makes sense?

a: See my topic about a bronze age Isreal based game and b.
b:The Bible did magic pretty well. For loyalty to God you got cool powers. The abilities were fairly varied. One guy gets super strength, one can control water, a few get really really good farming skills, some healing, and one gets a really good drug trip. The catch is you have to be loyal to God or you lose them.

 

[Severian Silk]

So mages can shoot fireballs, teleport or see the future, while priests can muster a few blessings at best, and yet people worship gods?

Well, sometimes the gods do come down to earth and kick ass, which is when you start wishing you had some cleric friends.

 

[SacredPath]

IMO, the wizard bullies/ coos the universe itself into producing the desired effect. So instead of "producing" a ball of flame out of thin air, the universe changes its makeup and grants the appearance of a fireball at the location requested by the wizards. Of course such a conscentious universe could also be replaced by the term "gods".

The "wondrous" element of magic comes with the cost of such a miracle. It should be strenuous and a little uncertain, contrary to science (i.e. I have figured out how to produce this effect so I can do it again and again). In mythology this often goes with personal sacrifice (i.e. Odin's martyrdom to gain knowledge of the runes).

 

[halflingbarbarian]

@Dire Roach: Hey, fellow WoD fan. Maybe you can throw in a short explanation of the M:tA Paradox system as well, as I believe M:tA has one of the most internally consistent magic systems I've come across. I'm not doing it because I am lazy and fat.

Ok here's a link: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Mage:_The_Ascension#Paradox

Paradox is accrued when a Mage uses vulgar magic that cannot be explained by Sleeper's idea of what Reality is and what laws govern it. Effects such as crushing a car with your bare hands are vulgar and will gain you paradox.

However, it is possible to bypass paradox through the use of coincidental magic by aligning the Effect with the rules of consensual reality (the overall beliefs of the sleepers). The same effect of destroying the car could be coincidentally performed by manipulating a street light to fall on the car. If the offending mage has acquired a significant amount (6 or more points) of Paradox, they may experience what is known as Backlash.

Backlash can occur in one of four ways; Either the mage acquires direct damage (amount and type depends on the amount of Paradox accrued), the mage becomes the target of a malicious Paradox Spirit, the mage may acquire Paradox Flaws (explained below), or the mage and those nearby can be sucked into a Paradox Realm in the same vein as the magic in question. (Correspondence could create a spatial loop, Time could create the repetition of certain hours or days.) Some certain objective would have to be achieved in order to escape from the infinite loop.

P.S: I didn't play or read into M:tA that much but I am impressed when I had a once-over of the main books (Players' Guide and the main sourcebook). I have almost every Werewolf book though (from Apocalypse to Wild West).

 

[Black Cat]

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen.

That's actually because most of the metaphysics on Mage: The Ascension are only highly dramatized and, uhm, game-ized versions of the actual metaphysics in diverse occult traditions and philosophies, to the point you can usually see works on those topics in their recomended reading lists, the most (in)famous example being the book of orphans, the entirety of it's bibliography section composed of nothing but actual Chaosticism books, or almost.

Which, again, takes us to the best argument that can be done with this: We have several religions, occult traditions, and the like with very complex and developed metaphysical structures that are both unique and compatible with one another, that have been mixing and cross breeding into sects, heresies, and general weirdnes for millenia. No writer is going to be able to come up with a better or more complex structure, so better just get some hardcore theology books, some hardcore kabalah books, some hardcore occult tomes, and start reading, then just give you enough freedom to adapt those principles to what you want Magick to do in your game, more or less what Mage: The Ascension did, and did very well.

 

[Mastermind]

Re: magic

I like full metal alchemists explanation for where magic energy comes from.
In that anime series, it is eventually revealed that magical energy comes from dead people from another dimension. So when theres war in the other dimension theres a lot of dead people and so more powerful mages.

The first anime series is dead to me precisely because of the above derp. What a fantastic way to utterly ruin what was an otherwise decent effort.

 

[Mastermind]

gotta go will finish later

Please don't.

 

[Mastermind]

Re: magic

As for a scientific/rational explanation for magic, there is background radiation everywhere, and mages are simply genetically different beings capable of harnessing that potential energy.

A prime example of retardedly half assed explanation.

The magnitude seems to be about several kilo midichlorians.

What more can you really explain though? At the end of the day you'll have to make shit up (new energy types, matter types, universal laws, etc.) to explain something that does not exist in our world.

 

[Johannes]

More relevant question than "where does it come from?", which can be answered only by different magnitudes of mumbojumbo, is "how does it work exactly?", and if you want a believable background, how does it affect the gameworlds society and technology?

I don't mind the exact origin of magic left unexplained, it's something you can fill the blanks of in your mind anyway if you care. But if you've got powerful magic in the game, say, resurrection, possible but nobody ever seems to use it on anyone besides your party members, it's much more inconsistent and immershun breaking.

 

[DraQ]

Re: magic

As for a scientific/rational explanation for magic, there is background radiation everywhere, and mages are simply genetically different beings capable of harnessing that potential energy.

A prime example of retardedly half assed explanation.

The magnitude seems to be about several kilo midichlorians.

What more can you really explain though?

Sometimes less is more.
In terms of explanation (not mechanics) there two factors that count and should be maximized - sense and coolness.
Sometimes it may be desirable to trade one for the other, for example, excessively mundane explanations may lower coolness, but can be desireable if they just make sense.
Problems start if your explanation is excessively mundane, but either doesn't actually explain anything (midichlorians - people wielding mystical mumbo-jumbo replaced by people having mundane endosymbionts that somehow wield mystical mumbo-jumbo) or just explicitly makes no sense (background radiation which is orders upon orders of magnitude too weak to be used to power any practical magic even if it could be manipulated and directed).

You throw potentially cool element without it actually making more sense this way, therefore your explanation is just retarded because it fails as an explanation and breaks other desirable stuff, and you would be better off without any explanation at all.

 

[JarlFrank]

Wizards can manipulate shit with their mind.

Simplest explanation ever.

And magical rituals, like, sacrificing blood to increase your strength or whatever, work because... well nobody knows they just do. It's mystical, some witches know how to do it, but nobody knows exactly why stuff happens when you do these rituals. There might be different theories, but nobody actually knows. Just like you can give a medieval peasant a machine gun and explain him that pulling the trigger makes it shoot and if it's out of ammo he has to put a new clip in. He can use it, but he still has no fucking idea *how* that thing works.

It's not like magic always has to be explained. And if it has to be explained, wizards just being able to use their mind to do stuff is as good as any. It's simple and doesn't introduce too much bullshit that might only throw up logical problems.

Oh, and is there anything more cool than some guy being able to make your heart explode merely by the power of his mind, without any attached mumbojumbo?

 

[Elsie Paroubek]

A mad scientist mage believes that all he has to do is pull the trigger of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic. In some settings (ie DnD + the weave) there are a few questions you should keep in mind when creating the setting. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will. Wizards shoot lightning from their fingertips and yet they go to the mage (more so than the dumbed down approach of a magic wand in order to make a fireball effect thanks to the way each mage believes that reality works. A shamanistic mage believes that all he has to do is pull the trigger of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic. Do you know any settings (books/movies) where the source finite? What is the source? It can range from being a McGuyver type who can keep larger number of nanos are Chosen Ones. They can see other mages do magic in totally different ways, but it's extremely difficult for them to repeat those methods and produce the same basic metaphysical principle, they can't swap the methods and beliefs that they originally learned to associate magic with that they feel comfortable doing their thing. If infinite, how is the energy is replenished within this source.

 

[kris]

For spells such as fireballs, the energy requirements can prove quite fatal to the mage (more so than the target). In such a setting more directed spells can prove far more fatal to the target.

Not energy but... I had it so that almost all magic is summoning. The mage summon raw forces from another plane/place and then send it on its way. As for fatal, is the summoner is disturbed in any way, then the magic will be released as is. So if he created a fire ball between his hands and is disturbed... Well you can guess what would happen. That makes mages reluctant to use very destructive forces and big amounts of it.

A suicide mage would be very viable though