Magic: What is it? Where does it come from?

[Carlos' Bitch1]

What the fuck is "spirituality"?

"Thou has lost an eighth"

 

[laclongquan]

What you want is just a good backstory for it.

Do note that's the main guiding lines of most of the failed magic-system writers. good backstory cant compensate for the lack of comprehensive application of magic to the world.

But it sure make it easy for writers. Just make shit up. As long as it sound impressive enough you dont have to worry about something else.
Bah.

 

[Hirato]

Here's how I see it.

Spells require a significant amount of energy.
For spells such as fireballs, the energy requirements can prove quite fatal to the mage (more so than the target). In such a setting more directed spells can prove far more fatal to the target.
In essence the energy you get out of the spell is what you put into it.

Most (if not all) games though provide a source for the energy. The energy required to cast the spell here is simply that of drawing it out from the source and focusing it.
In some settings (ie DnD + the weave) there are a few sources which are used by just about everyone. If you were to adopt my line of thinking, a critical question you'd need to answer is how the energy is replenished within this source.
In some other settings you'd draw this power from magical runes and stones. The power from these sources are of course finite, ie a non-rechargeable battery.

These are a few questions you should keep in mind when creating the setting.

• What is the source? (the wizard himself, runes, the weave, etc)
• Is the source finite?
• If infinite, how is the energy replenished?
• If finite, are there other sources?
• What effect does this have on the appearance/characteristics of wizards?

As an example, in a setting where Wizards themselves act as the source. The wizards would likely be quite skinny as well as gluttonous.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Magic is a magic because it's illogical and cannot be explained. You can't tell how it works because there is nothing that makes it work - it just does. Magic was a mystery since ancient and still is (you can count religions as magic imo as well, believers can't explain how god etc works but it just does and it's impossible to prove god does work although some claim that there's no question it does).

Books/movies/games show magic as shiny balls of fire but it's pretty same thing.

gotta go will finish later

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

 

[Kz3r0]

Magic is a magic because it's illogical and cannot be explained. You can't tell how it works because there is nothing that makes it work - it just does. Magic was a mystery since ancient and still is (you can count religions as magic imo as well, believers can't explain how god etc works but it just does and it's impossible to prove god does work although some claim that there's no question it does).

Books/movies/games show magic as shiny balls of fire but it's pretty same thing.

gotta go will finish later

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

Wrong magic is consorting with demons to subverte the natural order, miracles are intercessions of faith.
Nvermind that the Vatican Chief exorcist stated clearly that you must be gifted for practicing exorcisms, so faith alone is not enough.

 

[Dire Roach]

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will. The specific method and details of how a mage goes about changing reality varies according to the way each mage believes that reality works.

For example, a wizardly mage might believe that in order to make a fireball attack, he needs to channel the power of a magic wand in order to open a gate to the plane of fire directly in front of his target. A shamanistic mage believes that he must plead to the spirits of lava to take his enemy as a sacrifice for the volcano god. A mad scientist mage believes that all he has to do is pull the trigger of the plasma rifle he has successfully constructed in his back yard according to some pseudoscientific principle that no one else but him knows.

Although these three mages produce a fireball effect thanks to the same basic metaphysical principle, they can't swap the methods for doing magic freely. They can see other mages do magic in totally different ways, but it's extremely difficult for them to repeat those methods and produce the same effects because they don't understand them or feel very skeptical toward them. It's primarily through the methods and beliefs that they originally learned to associate magic with that they feel comfortable doing their thing.

Pretty much any set of beliefs can be used when creating a mage character to explain how their magic works. It can range from being a McGuyver type who can pull off seemingly impossible feats according to little-known principles of science to a madman who jerks off to produce rejuvenating fluids and shoots lightning bolts out of his ass goatse-style.

*Not to be confused with nWoD's Mage: The Awakening, which is very different and utterly inferior.

 

[SimpleComplexity]

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

Religions believe in something which may or may not exist.
Wizards know magic exists and they use it and they know how to use it because they know what magic is and how it works.

You don't want realistic magic. Sort of the definition of magic is that which breaks or bends the laws of physics -- so it's by definition unrealistic.

We consider things realistic because it's realistic for our own laws of physics. The worlds and laws where magic exists are realistic too in their own sense. We can't understand them unless the creator of the setting explains it. He created the setting thusly everything he writes down on his paper is a fact. The problem here is the people who create those settings are retards or lazy. A wizard can shoot lightning bolts yet the author of the setting creates a lowtechnology world where electricity as we know it is unknown. He tells us that wizards can shoot fireballs by waving their hands when you ask him "How did he do that?" he replies with "That? Oh that's just magic."

You can ask a cook the same question "How did you do that?" , "I just did it"
Or when Michael Jordon makes another slamdunk "How did he do that?" "Magic bro Magic"

So that is why some more well developed "magic systems" mention a "source" of power - extradimensional, demons, gods, etc.

The sad truth is circa 95% of all magic settings aren't well developed.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Very good analogy. I've always thought of the Bible and the Koran as fairytales and so called Miricles as just another form of magic.

Ask any christian why they believe in that shit and they'll tell you "they just do" and then ramble on about some shit called 'faith'. Magic can be explained in exactly the same way.

Religions believe in something which may or may not exist.
Wizards know magic exists and they use it and they know how to use it because they know what magic is and how it works.

Aren't wizards and magic something people believe may or may not exist? Or do you know something I don't?

 

[SimpleComplexity]

Only in our world.
Fireballs exist in the world where magic is applied thusly magic is real but not for us.

Last time i'm preaching that shit.

 

[Ausir]

Only in our world.
Fireballs exist in the world where magic is applied thusly magic is real but not for us.

Last time i'm preaching that shit.

In (most) fantasy worlds, in which clerics are given their powers from gods, religions also believe in something that actually exists.

 

[torpid]

What makes it supernatural is that it's unexplainable. Real physical phenomena have been considered supernatural in the past, before they were elucidated by more mundane explanations. And religion today, or more specifically religion's content, definitely is supernatural, as believers don't try to explain faith in scientific terms. But yes, magic and religion could compete in a setting, which was one of my propositions. What's silly is when they coexist side by side without any conflicts, even though they share many aspects.

Once magic is mundane it is no longer awe inspiring.

Besides religion today is about spirituality. This is its main selling point. Accompanying supernatural phenomena are but a part of the recipe.

The fact that we can send man in space and launch missiles a thousand times more powerful than your average magic fireball doesn't pevent millions of people from believing in God.

In the middle ages sorcery was considered to be very real, but it did not contradict religious beliefs.

Earlier in polytheistic religions the fact that you could light a fire (without understanding what fire actually is and what physical processes are involved) did not make anyone doubt the existence of the god of fire. Now substitute the knowledge of how to light a fire with the ability to hurl fireballs - the belief could have still easily remained the same.

Men are sent into space and missiles are fired according to explainable physical laws. God is unexplainable, supernatural. As for sorcery in the Middle Ages, traditional medicine, magical practices and the various pagan remnants that still existed were seen as inherently suspect by the Church, and this culminated in the witch hunts of the Early Modern period (which were caused by a number of factors).

When it comes to lighting a fire, anyone with a bit of know-how can do it. On the other hand, in most fantasy settings only a select few become mages. If one man can shoot fireballs while a thousand men cannot, those thousand men would view him as some sort of chosen one, an intercessor between the God of fire and the secular world. They might not entirely ditch traditional religion, but there would definitely be some competition in town. Unless of course the clerics themselves are the ones shooting fireballs, in which case mages=clerics.

 

[DraQ]

While magic may or may not be a strict equivalent or extension of our 'mundane' physics (may not, if it relies on beings and forces that have some intentions of their own rather than being just indifferent, uncaring rules - you can't piss gravity off, but you can piss off a god of fire), it needs an internal logic of some sort if it is to be incorporated into mechanics. It also benefits from interesting lore.

Historically, before the dawn of proper science magic was typically practiced by intelligent and knowledgable folks, and was believed to be a method to get certain things done - in a world where magic does work, this automatically creates parallels between magic and RL science.

Now, there are two ways your magic system may fail:

1. By being banal, shit, boring - this applies to systems that just fail to be interesting in terms of backstory or mechanics. One way to procure such failure is attempting to explain everything in terms of existing science and technology, usually in handwavy way, that is by substituting 'magic' in "Oh, it's magic!" by some X, which turns out to be nanotechnology or midichlorians or some other shit. You can incorporate elements of RL scientific knowledge into your magic, it can even strengthen your creation, but you shouldn't try to explain your magic away, especially in a cheap manner. Another way to make it boring is making it generic.

2. The system may also fail, by getting ripped apart by logic. This is actually harder to avoid. The system itself must be consistent, and it must be consistent with reality it must work in. A typical medieval themepark won't work if you throw in some resurrection, lightning bolt casting mages and healing potions. You need to understand ripple effects and consequences your magic is bound to have on the world. Not just that, you need to outright eliminate certain runaway effects, that's why it's generally a good idea to maintain stuff like thermodynamics and such, at least in some form - you don't want to end up with an in-universe Pun-Pun.

 

[Lockkaliber]

I remember really liking Ursula K Leguins explanation for magic in the earthsea books, although I can't remember how she explained it.

 

[DraQ]

I remember really liking Ursula K Leguins explanation for magic in the earthsea books, although I can't remember how she explained it.

True names.

 

[denizsi]

What a banal boring shit drivel of self-worship the Earthsea books were.

I like how it worked in Teudogar:Alliance with Rome. Basically, you had curses and blessings and the degree to which they worked depended on your charisma and the beliefs of others, ie. it was all hyperbole placebo. You curse someone, he starts believing he is cursed and starts screwing things up or the same with blessings and items. An item famous for its past, whether good or bad, affects believers thusly. You don't want your opponent to wield the Big Badass Sword of Doom That Befell A Thousand Warriors even if you think it's hyperbole, because you will always have that slightest trace of doubt in your subconscious.

I'd like to see that kind of thing extended just a little bit more, into a vague mysticism that can permanently leave the player on the fence on whether it's all BS or might be something to it.

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will. Best. Explanation. Ever. LOL

Hint: that's not an explanation. Like at all.

PS: I read your entire post, don't worry.

 

[Lockkaliber]

What a banal boring shit drivel of self-worship the Earthsea books were.

 

[denizsi]

That expresses my mood after reading the books upon having heard so much hype about it some 10+ years ago.

But ok, credit where due: it wasn't outright retarded like the typical high-fantasy tripe.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

George R. R. Martin does magic right in the ASOIAF books. :fanboi: It carries a terrible price (as far as I could make out whenever it was shown) and the effects are obviously supernatural. But, that sort of seems to completely discourage the "throw fireballs every day" type of mage we know from D&D, so I don't really see how that would work too well in a CRPG setting.

 

[DraQ]

What a banal boring shit drivel of self-worship the Earthsea books were.

Doesn't that apply only to the later books - "Tehanu" and "The Other Wind", where Le Guin went herp derp feminist in stark contrast with the earlier parts of the series? I still enjoyed them ( ) but herp derp feminist was duly noted.

 

[Phelot]

Mage: The Ascension* has the best metaphysics explanation for a magic system I've ever seen. In that setting, magic represents the ability to manipulate the basic building blocks of reality through sheer force of will.

Sheer force of will. Best. Explanation. Ever. LOL

Hint: that's not an explanation. Like at all.

PS: I read your entire post, don't worry.

I don't see why it's so terrible. essentially it's psychic or telekinetic ability.

 

[ecliptic]

Fuckin' magic. How does it work?

 

[DraQ]

Fuckin' magic. How does it work?

*runs ecliptic over with a magnet magic-car*

 

[SimpleComplexity]

Fuckin' magic. How does it work?

You swing your dick around and say the following ancient words "I'm still a virgin". Then ten naked beautiful women wlll appear in front of your eyes and fullfill all of your dirty nerd wishes. Try it out and report back if you were successful.

Ok seriously, who turned you into a frog?

 

[muffildy]

magic

I like full metal alchemists explanation for where magic energy comes from.
In that anime series, it is eventually revealed that magical energy comes from dead people from another dimension. So when theres war in the other dimension theres a lot of dead people and so more powerful mages.

As for a scientific/rational explanation for magic, there is background radiation everywhere, and mages are simply genetically different beings capable of harnessing that potential energy.

 

[DraQ]

Re: magic

As for a scientific/rational explanation for magic, there is background radiation everywhere, and mages are simply genetically different beings capable of harnessing that potential energy.

A prime example of retardedly half assed explanation.

The magnitude seems to be about several kilo midichlorians.