Mass Effect dialog system

[Woetohice]

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[EvoG]

Well, innovative might not be the best word. What I'm going at is that there should be some 'significant improvement' (rather than 'innovation') in ME. Of course, every new game should not be a lot better than all the other games in existence. However, I think that if a developer is going to make a new game, it should be better than its *own* last game.

So, in total, the ME dialogue system is an improvement on paper, but I don't think it will *significantly* improve the roleplaying in, say, JE. Hopefully there will be improvements in other new features, but like I said before, all the hype centered around the dialogue system makes it feel like there are no other better improvements.

Well fine, but come on, dialog aside(which I still like) the game has a robust galaxy exploration element, a highly improved tactical combat system (from what we can gather from the demo vids), great visual style and far less linearity (again from what we've been told). What else do you honestly expect? You seem to think they're saying...

"hey, over here...look at our nifty dialog system! NO, dont look at that other stuff, look at how you talk to NPC's!"

...all the while neglecting the rest of the game? Thats kinda silly, and honestly while the dialog is mentioned in previews, its not like people are excited about ME just 'for the dialog' system, if at all necessarily.

 

[suibhne]

A few quick responses, Evo:

Casey Hudson has fairly consistently hyped the convo system as the new piece of the game system. Their typical line, as I noted on my entry, is "ME is innovative partly because it does all this OLD stuff really well, but LOOK OVER HERE IS THIS NEW AND INNOVATIVE AND COOL DIALOG SYSTEM". No, the dialog system hasn't been hyped as inherently cooler than the rest of the game, but I've certainly seen more hype for the dialog than for any other specific system within ME. E.g., every interview I've read has featured much more hype for the dialog system than for "a robust galaxy exploration element" or "far less linearity", which you cite.

Maybe this (like so many other things) can be blamed on Casey Hudson, not Bioware in general or its design goals for ME. But it's still hard to miss.

Second, I think it's easy to imagine other meanings (or tones, really) for "I gave you an order!" I suppose, within the context of ME, you might end up always expecting Shepard's responses to be OMG EXTR3M3, but off the top of my head I can think of several reasonable alternative meanings for "I gave you an order!" - versus Bioware's elaboration of "I'm in charge here, Garrus! Not you. I gave you an order and you damn well better follow it!"

Even within the same conversational tone, there's an extremely broad range of content possibilities. E.g, instead of presenting Garrus' insubordination as the reason for Shepard's testiness, we could see something like this: "I gave you an order, Garrus! We don't have the time to discuss this - evil alien killer robot-machines are on their way, and nobody believes us, so hurry the hell up and move out!"

As I outlined, one solution I can imagine to this problem is to greatly constrain the character of Shepard, and this has probably been done. But the point is, if there isn't any possible confusion about the meaning of "I gave you an order!", then it's probably because Bioware has so thoroughly specified Shepard's character that alternative meanings are simply not plausible - and I'm not certain that kind of specificity is to be eagerly anticipated in an RPG.

 

[Volourn]

"No, the dialog system hasn't been hyped as inherently cooler than the rest of the game, but I've certainly seen more hype for the dialog than for any other specific system within ME. E.g., every interview I've read has featured much more hype for the dialog system"

1. The reaosn they're likely pushing and talking ie. hyping ME's dialogue system is because it's so different than BIO's other game's dialogue systems. Everything else is just more fo the same (hopefully of high quality, of course).

2. Let me guess this right now. Somehow a Codexer is whining that a RPG company is actually hyping their dialogue system? WOW! I remember a time when Codexers bashed comapnies for spending way too much time hyping graphics or combat and not paying attention to dialogue. How times have changed. L0L


"As I outlined, one solution I can imagine to this problem is to greatly constrain the character of Shepard, and this has probably been done. But the point is, if there isn't any possible confusion about the meaning of "I gave you an order!", then it's probably because Bioware has so thoroughly specified Shepard's character that alternative meanings are simply not plausible - and I'm not certain that kind of specificity is to be eagerly anticipated in an RPG."

If youa re gonna use BIO's own words against them at least you could do is not ignore the words they speak that shows this line of thinking is bullshit. Have you, at least, read the half a dozen previews that have come out the last couple of days. they literlaly squash this idea that BIO is gonna force players to play Shepard has some mean jerk off who only uses violence to get what he/she wants. It's stated, quite clearly, that they ar egiving players the OPTION to play 'the meanie/badass/', 'the nice guy', or the 'intellectual thinker'.

Once again, if youa re gonna try to use their words against them at least read AND understand everything.

P.S. Links to all these previews can be found in my ME thread on the Obsidian or, hell, just go to any of the popular/well known gaming sites ala IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot, etc.


R00fles!

 

[EvoG]

I think the big point I'm trying to get across is more about this feeling that dialog IS gameplay versus dialog being a means to a storytellers end. No doubt FO was more cerebral in that capacity, but I dont think complex dialog options make for a great or at least a better game. We have no problems watching movies or reading books that offer zero dialog choices, and while I understand you want to "roleplay", you have to consider the abstraction of play thats underlying this.

In our ME example, Shepard clearly has three distinct ways to reply...there's the nice approach, the stern approach or the conforming approach. There's little ambiguity here and I dont feel more complex dialog makes this situation better. Consider that you are expecting your audience to grasp certain social concepts as well with regards to inflection, sarcasm and context. Its easy to understand NICE, MEAN or AGREEABLE, and attempting to understand Garrus' attitude towards Shepard later on is clearer.

As long as the story is interesting, and that you can make choices that do have an effect on the NPC's attitude towards you (consider that no other games really do this) AND that there is consequence, you're getting a lot of good play. Game world exposition and subtle animaton cues that didn't exist back in the 90's can now be used to great advantage (Shepard grabbing Garrus' collar).

I just dont see the value in going from one extreme (Oblivion or jRPG's even) to another (Fallout, PST) for the sake of it. As long as we're engaged in the story and you can roleplay your character type and offer a bit of personality, even if its simply nice guy or asshole, you're still being offered choice. Its perhaps like TB combat in FO versus TB in Silent Storm or JA; some people just want the basic TB (I've had this convo on DaC), so not all TB is created equal.

 

[Top Hat]

I just dont see the value in going from one EXTREME!!! (Oblivion or jRPG's even) to another (Fallout, PST) for the sake of it.

Fixed.

I haven't really followed this Mass Effect stuff closely, so I'm wondering:

* if you miss out on information if you interrupt, or do you get all of the information from the whole dialogue choice (including the stuff you interrupted).

* if you ONLY get the information, what effect will this have on subtitles - what if you interrupt right at the beginning of a subtitle chunk, so you get the information anyway.

 

[suibhne]

If youa re gonna use BIO's own words against them at least you could do is not ignore the words they speak that shows this line of thinking is bullshit. Have you, at least, read the half a dozen previews that have come out the last couple of days. they literlaly squash this idea that BIO is gonna force players to play Shepard has some mean jerk off who only uses violence to get what he/she wants. It's stated, quite clearly, that they ar egiving players the OPTION to play 'the meanie/badass/', 'the nice guy', or the 'intellectual thinker'.

I wrote that weeks ago, Volly - as you know quite well, since you praised it at the time. So I obviously didn't take into account anything written in "the last couple of days". In any case, I've said several times that I'm basing this on Casey's hype, and that he may be misrepresenting the game - and it sounds like either he is, or he was and has now changed his tune. (All of the recent coverage has been with the two doctors, of course, not with Casey. Poor Casey.)

P.S. Links to all these previews can be found in my ME thread on the Obsidian or, hell, just go to any of the popular/well known gaming sites ala IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot, etc.

Well, let's see... I can't check Gamespot because it refuses to load if I don't accept cookies; Gamespot and I go through this spat every few weeks, and it always comes around. The brand-new previews at GameSpy and IGN, however, do nothing to back up your claims about developing Shepard into 'the intellectual thinker'; on the contrary, they repeat Muzyka's "Jack Bauer in space" quotation. So you're not batting so high right now.

The good news (for my concerns about the game, anyway) is that GameSpy does say a little bit more about the dialog system, and mentions that the responses aren't even intended to be literal; they're merely "attitudes". I'd be happier in this case if Bio simply eschewed language entirely and just let you choose an attitude, but at least it won't be too hard to figure out which attitude goes with which response.

R00fles!

Indeed.


@Evo: I agree 100% that dialog design is always extremely limiting, like most game mechanics. I also agree that a few distinct responses is about as much as we can generally hope for, and I'm actually okay with the idea of choosing attitudes rather than literal responses. My complaint was (and still is) with forcing the player to translate an abbreviated response into a much more extensive response, but it sounds like that won't really be necessary; all the player will have to do is translate the abbreviated response into "angry", and then just be content with the single "angry" response offered by the game.

 

[Volourn]

"The brand-new previews at GameSpy and IGN, however, do nothing to back up your claims about developing Shepard into 'the intellectual thinker'; on the contrary, they repeat Muzyka's "Jack Bauer in space" quotation. So you're not batting so high right now."

This just proves you are a piss poor researcher, and thinker. When you play ME, you better stick to the Jack Bauer type responses.


"wrote that weeks ago, Volly - as you know quite well, since you praised it at the time. So I obviously didn't take into account anything written in "the last couple of days". In any case, I've said several times that I'm basing this on Casey's hype, and that he may be misrepresenting the game - and it sounds like either he is, or he was and has now changed his tune. (All of the recent coverage has been with the two doctors, of course, not with Casey. Poor Casey.)"

Except for the fact, this ha been the case ALWAYS. They wer enever gonna force you to play in one style. There was ALWAYS gonna be options on how to respond. The 'dialogue wheel' has been around since basiclaly the game was first announced.

Better get back to the research. there are various links in that Obsidian ME thread I mentioned. Read them. Gah.


Here's a hint, bozo. Here's a direct quote from ana rticle. Find it and stop emabrassing yourself. Please.

"When you're not busy exploring or fighting, you're talking. Mass Effect uses an abbreviated form of the traditional dialogue tree, where you now simply point the left-analog stick in the direction of the desired phrase. Each phrase is indicative of a general attitude, not the exact wording of dialogue (Muzyka comments that upper-right tends to be kinder, straight-left tends to be inquisitive/investigatory, and lower-right tends to make you unfriendly)."

Game fuckin' over. Game really fuckin' over.


Why do people on the Codex purposefully try to embarass themselves? Only I can do that, and look smart when it's over.

Moronic punks.

 

[suibhne]

Here's a hint, bozo. Here's a direct quote from ana rticle. Find it and stop emabrassing yourself. Please.

"When you're not busy exploring or fighting, you're talking. Mass Effect uses an abbreviated form of the traditional dialogue tree, where you now simply point the left-analog stick in the direction of the desired phrase. Each phrase is indicative of a general attitude, not the exact wording of dialogue (Muzyka comments that upper-right tends to be kinder, straight-left tends to be inquisitive/investigatory, and lower-right tends to make you unfriendly)."

Game fuckin' over. Game really fuckin' over.

That's the same GameSpy quotation I already referenced in the message to which you were ostensibly responding - and that quotation doesn't do anything to support your contention about developing Shepard throughout the course of the game into an "intellectual thinker"-type character.

...As I already said.

Before crowing victory with such preening arrogance, you might want to actually read the messages to which you're responding - or at least support your arguments in the first place and treat this as a discussion rather than a sandbox spitting match.

I can't believe it's taken me this long, but I've finally figured out why you're so fucking annoying so much of the time. It's not because you're a jerk, or because you're stupid, or because you're a fanboy. No, it's entirely because you're a classic internet troll in your aggressive dismissal of any competing viewpoints without bothering to read or engage with them. It's your complete and total lack of respect for everyone else around here - and I don't mean lack of personal respect, because we all share that for each other , but your lack of intellectual respect. That's why you never participate meaningfully in any of the intelligent discussions that occur here; you've chosen to be the lowest common denominator. The ridiculous thing, really, is that some of us keep giving you a chance.

Why do people on the Codex purposefully try to embarass themselves? Only I can do that, and look smart when it's over.

...

 

[dagorkan]

Fuck 'em Vollo, fuck 'em hard. It's game over for the Suibhne and all his little buddies...

 

[Volourn]

"That's the same GameSpy quotation I already referenced in the message to which you were ostensibly responding - and that quotation doesn't do anything to support your contention about developing Shepard throughout the course of the game into an "intellectual thinker"-type character."

Yet, you referenced it wrong, and it sure does allow you to develop Shepard as an 'intellectual thinker'. Only someone who is incapable of intellectual thinking would think like you do.

 

[Surgey]

Several other games, including Blade Runner and Return to Zork, used an "attitude" thing for dialogue. It worked pretty well, I thought. In Blade Runner, if you turned it off, you talked about topics instead, but they had built-in attitudes that weren't apparent, so you were better off using an attitude.

 

[sabishii]

In a move that blends surprise, humor, and brutal directness, Zeschuk has Shepard say something along the lines of, "I can shut him up" and without warning, Shepard simply quips, "Good night Manuel," before decking him in the face for an instant KO.

I'm not really happy with this. There have already been times in past RPGs where I would pick an ambiguous dialogue option and the game (or developer) would interpret it different from the way I do. If this kind of "surprise" was built into the game purposefully... not good.

I'm pretty okay with the abbreviated dialogue options, actually. At least I *was*, as when I saw screenshots the dialogue options did seem to expand into actual dialogue directly. But in this example, what if I said "I can shut him up" just as a threat? Or perhaps I say it to provoke another NPC (maybe a party member) into saying something? Or maybe it was just in jest? But instead the game surprises me by knocking him out. It'd actually be better if the dialogue option instead said, "*Knock Manuel unconscious" and then the "surprise" actual dialogue appearing as "I can shut him up."

 

[The Rambling Sage]

The good news (for my concerns about the game, anyway) is that GameSpy does say a little bit more about the dialog system, and mentions that the responses aren't even intended to be literal; they're merely "attitudes". I'd be happier in this case if Bio simply eschewed language entirely and just let you choose an attitude, but at least it won't be too hard to figure out which attitude goes with which response.

From where i am standing, those are not good news. The choose-your-own-attitude works well in adventure games, for an example, because they are telling you a story with some puzzles to solve in between expositions. The character was never meant to be your character, nor were you ever meant to control his development.

For RPGs it is out of place, as it completely removes every single chance to have a meaningful conversation in wich your character is meant to answer in a way other than a very basic mammal. Emotions and attitudes are an important part of human interactions, but still only a part. The fact that most games just use generalist responses at this time, and even so a very limited set of those, does not mean we should just be done with trees and make this into a choose-your-own-adventure videobook.

Think of those few interactions in Arcanum that were interesting or meaningful, then think about those interactions in planescape that were quite entertaining, well thought, and quite weird in their own way. Think even in the few interesting interactions that managed to survive the brutal mutilation of Kotor2. Now reduce them to an attitude system and replay, in your head, how would them have played then.

Real fun, isn't?

Now, i think nobody at the Codex would be against a game in wich you can have a discussion with a given character and instead of having the usual "generalist" responses at your disposal you can have five or six well developed trains of thought exposing diferent points of view, moralities, theories, and philosophies at every turn of your character to talk.

If this Emotion/Attitude system is accepted and well received we can kiss that dream goodbye, with even more certainly than before. So i am actually surprised, and somewhat disapointed, the codex is not screaming "Heresy" and trying to crash a plane into bioware's offices. But maybe this is just some maneuver to give them a false sense of security and catch them unprepared. If so, you have my blessings. Go on with it.

Maybe that will put some rightful fear of God in those heathen developers' hearts.

Note: This response was not directed towards your person, nor against your particular post. It is against the particular system being discussed, and only used the quote as a starting point for my divagation. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

[Annonchinil]

What concerns me more is the deuchebag dialogue options in Bioware games. In the Mass Effect screenshot we see three options, submissive deuchebag, angry deuchebag and in the middle deuchebag, all based on three levels of agreement. I hope not all click wheel conversations are based on a single theme. Same thing in KOTOR everything my character said made me dislike him, I though it was just because I was playing the light side. However the dark options feel stupid and juvenile, Darth Vader won't rob some poor women because it’s the right things to do, he won't do it because it’s pointless.

At times there can be a lack of creativity to Bioware games as some of the side quests in KOTOR where take from their previous titles. Some stories have crazy people that predict doom; Bioware takes it to the most uncreative element by having a crazy guy who predicts doom. Since I just started playing IWDII for the first time there are so far four parts of the prologue that relate to the future.

-A sword with one of your characters names on it ‘Sword of x’
-A lonely cat lady who is unsure of her dreams and is afraid that she is crazy
-A mage who is in a state of semi-consciousness
-A quest in which after you help a ghost find peace she states that you might meet again in a different place

 

[Lord Chambers]

Volourn, I enjoy reading your posts, but it would be easier if you used the board's quote function to set your own text apart from that which you quote.

At times there can be a lack of creativity to Bioware games as some of the side quests in KOTOR where take from their previous titles. Some stories have crazy people that predict doom; Bioware takes it to the most uncreative element by having a crazy guy who predicts doom. Since I just started playing IWDII for the first time there are so far four parts of the prologue that relate to the future.

-A sword with one of your characters names on it ‘Sword of x’
-A lonely cat lady who is unsure of her dreams and is afraid that she is crazy
-A mage who is in a state of semi-consciousness
-A quest in which after you help a ghost find peace she states that you might meet again in a different place

What?

 

[Surgey]

IWD2 was more about hacking and slashing, anyway. Not to mention the game was harder than fuck. I hope you enjoyed reloading all the time once you found out who was in the next battle so you could prep spells.

 

[Volourn]

IWD2 was fuckin' measy, loser.

Sorry, LC; but my quotes style is cooler than the baord style quotes.

 

[Surgey]

If you say so. I probably would've found it easier if the party would go where I told them to, instead of running into a teammate and deciding to take an alternate route 3 miles the other way. Not to mention it wasn't exactly D&D; it did do a better job than NWN, though.

 

[Romanian_Dude2005]

Too bad they couldn't keep the whole masive war theme that was presented in the first 2 or 3 hours of the game. Instead they kept sending your party out in the willderness to fight hordes of orcs and goblins all by themselves. When I saw the intro for IWD2, the first thing that crossed my mind was "Oh boy! Get ready for this, because you're not going to fight alone here"