Personal question for the developers.

[Brother None]

Are you sure you're just hearing me out and not trying to prove me wrong, VD? I'm not the enemy here, I'm just making suggestions, not trying to predict doom for AoD.

I really don't see it as a Codex-only comment

Perhaps that's part of the problem, then.

Let's step back for a second and consider what kind of game AoD is, what kind of people it will appeal to. I actively sell the game, its concept and features, to people who may find them appealing, to people who either like these type of games or sick and tired of the alternative and ready to embrace AoD gameplay.
(...)
I said "a role-playing game". That's a very specific answer for those who actually want a role-playing game, don't you think?

No, I don't think. It doesn't promote the game in any way, nor does it give a full set of information to anyone who doesn't know you. Peter Molyneux can answer "a role-playing game" when talking about Fable 2. So can crazy Japs when talking about Final Fantasy MXCLIV. It doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't know your specific definition and limitations to role-playing games.

So to "actively selling the game" to the people you're thinking of are limited to the people used to your lingo, your definitions, your requirements of games. Who are those people? Codexers. People from the Watch, NMA, GB or other places might agree with you, but they won't understand you.

Which doesn't change the fact that a lot of people discuss NMA, does it? Whether or not you track it every day or ignore completely, the fact remains - some people somewhere are talking about NMA right now.

Yes, it does. There's nobody talking about NMA right now ('cept us). The fact that I keep bumping into times when people discuss NMA and what it's doing doesn't fool me into thinking it's a popular subject anywhere other than within our little circle or at the forums completely obsessed with how evil NMA is (SA, QTT, TTLG). The rest of the internet doesn't care, and the NMA referrer list doesn't fool me into thinking they do.

It really shouldn't make you think the same of AoD, either.

Well, if you are not much of a forum goer, your forums observations are flawed by default, no?

Flawed by default, not incorrect by definition.

And how would he do that? How would his "professional" word-spreading efforts be different from what he does now? I mean, we all hate people who show up on our forums and start spreading info professionally. We throw sticks at them and throw them out eventually. In my opinion, the only successful "viral marketing" approach is when it's done from the heart and by people who already belong to a certain community

True and not true. I already explained why I don't think the current AoD community is ideal for that, but beyond that, encouraging your community to spread the word and even giving select individuals the right to speak to site's officials in your name (which encourages them to do more, even further) works a lot better. They don't magically become less honest by becoming official, and only a really reactionary and prejudiced group of people would react in such a way to such an individual.

In my view, the word of mouth is slow now and should be sped up nearing release. How do you intend to do that?

So, what we have here is a simple disinterest, which is very, very understandable. I was very reluctant to give Prelude of Darkness a chance myself and only being utterly disappointed with Morrowind and having absolutely nothing to play, tried the game and was instantly sold. It wasn't an easy decision though and that's the biggest problem indie games are facing. They are being perceived as a fan-fiction equivalent of games, basically.

Let's be serious here. If a game like AoD with all its features and Fallout influences was announced officially by a reputable company, NMA members would be all over it, crying with joy. I'm not complaining, mind you, just stating the obvious.

That's part of the story, not all of it.

Why? The Codex is either:

a) a great RPG-oriented hub offering discussions, content you won't see anywhere else, and even conversations with many developers. I can't think of a better RPG site, in which case it's an honor to have AoD forums here.

b) some kind of sleazy underground site, avoided by intelligent people and not mentioned in a good company, in which case having the forums here is a tragic mistake.

That's nonsense, why this artificial dichotomy? The Codex is:

c) an above-average intelligent and critical community with an insular attitude and its own lingo, which makes it inaccessible to other people and not apt to expand greatly, and a tendency towards conservative movement.

Or d or e or f. What the hell @ that artificial separation into two ridiculous and completely untrue options, though.

 

[somnium]

Why? The Codex is either:

a) a great RPG-oriented hub offering discussions, content you won't see anywhere else, and even conversations with many developers. I can't think of a better RPG site, in which case it's an honor to have AoD forums here.

b) some kind of sleazy underground site, avoided by intelligent people and not mentioned in a good company, in which case having the forums here is a tragic mistake.

Which is it?

I mainly lurk here and i actually quite like this place, but i have to say it is a combination of these. There have been quite a number of intelligent threat with great discussions and insight in crpg and in games in general. But on the other hand this place has quite a few immature, stupid and just plain offensive threats (and not only in the general (rpg) discussion, just look at the faq threat here). I don't mind it much but i can see certainly why some would, even more so if that is the first thing they see.

 

[Severian Silk]

Well, at least he'll have nuts this winter.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Yes, it does. There's nobody talking about NMA right now ('cept us). The fact that I keep bumping into times when people discuss NMA and what it's doing doesn't fool me into thinking it's a popular subject anywhere other than within our little circle or at the forums completely obsessed with how evil NMA is (SA, QTT, TTLG). The rest of the internet doesn't care, and the NMA referrer list doesn't fool me into thinking they do.

Um, isn't that about the situation with us? Forumites are really a vanishingly small part of the gaming community anyway. Generally once a year or so a few people from some other forum come here, start trolling, get the cock slapped out of their mouth, run home, then a flood of me-too'ers do the same and get the same treatment, leave, and then hate on us for a while from a safe distance. Boo hoo. I doubt our "reputation" extends much farther than that. Does the Bioware community at large even know we exist anymore? They haven't come trolling in forever, so I'm guessing no. Same story with the ESF lately, thankfully.

If an AoD forum were set up, how much would the traffic be, anyway? This one isn't really that heavy as it is, and honestly I probably wouldn't visit if it wasn't just a click away. Nothing against AoD, I just have other shit to do than check the fora of every game I hope to buy one day all the time. We're not the most pleasant bunch for sure, but given that the core members of a AoD forum would be Codexers anyway, I don't really see how much different they'd shape up.

 

[Vault Dweller]

b) some kind of sleazy underground site, avoided by intelligent people and not mentioned in a good company, in which case having the forums here is a tragic mistake.

I don't post very often, but I am following this forum, and like others, I think that b) suites this site more often then not.

Who are these others?

I disagree with your assessment and will offer a simple proof, hoping that you'll do the same. I interviewed a lot of developers in the last two years. I was invited to private presentations at GDC and E3 (my work doesn't allow me to travel, so I asked Ghan to take my place, but he was too busy too. He can verify my words though). Black Isle, Reflexive, Troika, Bethesda, Bioware, Obsidian, CD Project, and many smaller companies developers have posted here. Name me another RPG site that can make a similar claim.

If option B was even remotely, a little bit true, none of that would have happened. I hope you realize that.

I also agree with Brother None that your articles downplay the game more often then not, and you do have a codexer accent (best analogy I could think of) when your talking about your game. You understand what your saying, and lots of other people understand it, but lots of people don't quite grasp what your saying, or it doesn't come across 100%.

I'll consider that.

I'm not sure why you can't see that, or refuse to see it, but I'm not sure who these 9/10 people are that you refer to.

I meant 9/10 of my potential audience.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Are you sure you're just hearing me out and not trying to prove me wrong, VD? I'm not the enemy here, I'm just making suggestions, not trying to predict doom for AoD.

Of course. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, but I have to argue with you and try to dispute your points to test their strength and thus validity.

No, I don't think. It doesn't promote the game in any way, nor does it give a full set of information to anyone who doesn't know you. Peter Molyneux can answer "a role-playing game" when talking about Fable 2. So can crazy Japs when talking about Final Fantasy MXCLIV. It doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't know your specific definition and limitations to role-playing games.

Ok. Agree about the "role-playing game" comment. A more descriptive answer should have been given.

So to "actively selling the game" to the people you're thinking of are limited to the people used to your lingo, your definitions, your requirements of games. Who are those people? Codexers. People from the Watch, NMA, GB or other places might agree with you, but they won't understand you.

Still disagree with you, but I'll consider what you said.

Yes, it does. There's nobody talking about NMA right now ('cept us). The fact that I keep bumping into times when people discuss NMA and what it's doing doesn't fool me into thinking it's a popular subject anywhere other than within our little circle or at the forums completely obsessed with how evil NMA is (SA, QTT, TTLG). The rest of the internet doesn't care, and the NMA referrer list doesn't fool me into thinking they do.

Now I'm a bit confused. Explain the last sentence and tell me what would be an accurate indicator of whether or not people are talking about any given site.

In my view, the word of mouth is slow now and should be sped up nearing release. How do you intend to do that?

Descriptive gameplay videos, hands-on previews, finally the demo should do the trick. Magazine articles if I can break through the indifference. Maybe/most likely I'll spend some money on ads.

c) an above-average intelligent and critical community with an insular attitude and its own lingo, which makes it inaccessible to other people and not apt to expand greatly, and a tendency towards conservative movement.

You make it sound like it's a very exclusive club, hard to understand and even harder to join. I can show you quite a few people who joined recently, were welcomed to the site, and started posting without any problems or trials or any nonsense.

 

[Severian Silk]

Eh, now don't go all kicked puppy on me. I don't have an opinion either way, but I do know this is not following any standard marketing procedures™.

And they're standard for a reason, which is that they work. And so does dumbing down RPGs for sales, but obviously you won't do that. But good marketing wouldn't hurt the game, other than taking valuable time away from you.

You mean the gold standard? NATO standardisation agreements?

 

[Blue]

I only had two options, and didn't take the time to make other options like Brother None. I'm not trying to slam the codex. When a new RPG comes out, I come here to see what people here think of it, as imho they give their opinions unbiased and straight from the heart.

On the other hand, to get those opinions you need to sift through a lot of other stuff to find it. Theres always someone posting something about furries or how much they can't stand seeing sex in a game or any other stupid crap people here come up with around here to derail threads.

Ok so all that was saying, I don't think this is some underground shithole, just that it has its crazy's, just like any other forum, except here they are allowed to run rampant, thats fine.

I meant 9/10 of my potential audience.

For AOD though, I feel like your narrowing your audience down to a very small core group of people. I fully understand your not looking for the OMFG N0 NEXt GeN GR4PhICs, and I NeeD Actun!!111 crowd, but I think that you could attract a lot of people to the game you are making, by letting people better understand what it is your doing.

I've read all the interviews, I've totally bought into the hype, but for everyone like me, I'm sure (and of course I have no proof, or source w/e to prove this) there are 3 others that just go huh? when they see the interviews.

I'm not sure why I'm debating this, it just felt like you were resisting the idea of expanding your views beyond the codex. I know your not trying to make millions off of this game, but why not get your idea of what you consider an RPG should be to who ever you can get to.

 

[cardtrick]

I meant 9/10 of my potential audience.

For AOD though, I feel like your narrowing your audience down to a very small core group of people.

Yeah . . . the audience isn't the several hundred people who post/lurk on the Codex, but the several hundred thousand who played and enjoyed Fallout, Fallout 2, or Arcanum. Not to mention all the people who may recently have gotten the bug after playing quality new RPGs like MOTB and The Witcher.

 

[TheLostOne]

Not gonig to touch on the marketing aspect, but I will add my opinion about the tone of your interviews, VD.

The direction you're heading with the game is breaking the current trend in new games and it makes people who know what the genre needs excited and hopeful. There are also people out there who play every rpg that comes out, haven't been satisfied by one in years, but don't know why. Codexers have the advantage of reading and participating in thought provoking and challenging discussions about the RPG genre and what's gone wrong. They are in a position to understand what's so great about AoD.

The average uninformed yet unsatisfied RPG enthusiast (part of your target audience) are not going to get thrilled about the game after reading your interviews. You cover topics that have been beaten to death here on the codex with sarcastic and oblique references which are humorous, but not accessable for non-codexers

For example:

We call our new revolutionary combat mode "Xtreme". The recent advances in rocket science have allowed our engineers to slow down bullet-time significantly, achieving the above-mentioned and very next-generationy mode. It gives the player enough time to react and do all kinds of cool cinematic things in proper sequence. While to an untrained eye, it may seem that the game is still turn-based, we can assure you that you couldn't be more wrong, and what you are about to witness in the video accompanying this text is the cutting edge, Xtreme bullet time design of tomorrow.

Very funny if you have some knowledge of the history of codex discussion. You reference the debunking of real-time being next gen, the bullshit aspect of hype machines, and the strategic options turn based combat offers, but you do it obliquely. If someone hasn't heard these discussions before or doesn't understand your cynicism, then this whole paragraph just sonuds silly.

I think you need to take a breath of fresh air or recite a mantra or something before your interviews, because the cynicism and sarcasm needs to be dailed back a bit if you want to be more accessable. Be open about what's wrong with the genre today and about what you're trying to do different. To you it may sound like you're repeating what everyone knows, but it will sound fresh and intriguing to people that these concepts are new to.

 

[axedice]

I think you're going too hard on Vault Dweller. I first read about AoD in NMA, then posted about it in our local gaming forum. The only people who responded were rpgers, "not so shiny graphiks" are all it takes for an avarage gamer to turn away from AoD. After the rpgwatch rewiev with the xtreme engine remark came out, I posted about it again and we all had a good laugh since anyone who's intrested in AoD is already a fallout fan / sees oblivion as an action game, monitors F3 etc. and doesnt have a hard time understanding those jokes.

Long story short, I dont think you can expand the the customer base by adressing the avarage gamer. This is an indie game and any potential buyer is serious about rpgs one way or another. And there is still time for advertising, especially when the game has more to show with polished elements (I believe thats what the Iron tower crew is doing right now?)

 

[Jora]

I have to disagree with axeldice. There are many people who love the original Fallout series (or even Nethack or King of Dragon Pass) and know exactly what VD means by choices and non-linearity etc. It doesn't mean they appreciate all the jokes and sarcasm towards other games. They are regular people who like all kinds of games and certainly have the intellectual capacity to enjoy games like AoD. VD shouldn't define his customer base, he should let his customers do it themselves. That said, apart from the Xtreme combat article, I don't think he's done anything wrong in his interviews and articles.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've read all the interviews, I've totally bought into the hype, but for everyone like me, I'm sure (and of course I have no proof, or source w/e to prove this) there are 3 others that just go huh? when they see the interviews.

Other then the Xtreme bit, what interview/article would confuse my potential audience?

I'm not sure why I'm debating this, it just felt like you were resisting the idea of expanding your views beyond the codex.

I'm not, which is why I did all those articles and interviews in the first place. I simply disagree with the opinion that my statements were targeted at and could only be understood by the initiated.

I meant 9/10 of my potential audience.

For AOD though, I feel like your narrowing your audience down to a very small core group of people.

Yeah . . . the audience isn't the several hundred people who post/lurk on the Codex, but the several hundred thousand who played and enjoyed Fallout, Fallout 2, or Arcanum. Not to mention all the people who may recently have gotten the bug after playing quality new RPGs like MOTB and The Witcher.

And why do you feel that this audience won't be able to understand and relate to what I said in my articles and interviews? Just curious.

I think you need to take a breath of fresh air or recite a mantra or something before your interviews, because the cynicism and sarcasm needs to be dailed back a bit if you want to be more accessable. Be open about what's wrong with the genre today and about what you're trying to do different. To you it may sound like you're repeating what everyone knows, but it will sound fresh and intriguing to people that these concepts are new to.

That's a good point. Thanks.

Long story short, I dont think you can expand the the customer base by adressing the avarage gamer. This is an indie game and any potential buyer is serious about rpgs one way or another. And there is still time for advertising, especially when the game has more to show with polished elements (I believe thats what the Iron tower crew is doing right now?)

Strongly agree with that. You can't get average gamers with articles, no matter how well-written and retard-friendly. The way I see it, I can get through to the hardcore audience by doing exactly what I've been doing until now and once the game is out, excitement of people who are playing it and talking about it will start getting through to a wider audience.

 

[Special_Can]

Long story short, I dont think you can expand the the customer base by adressing the avarage gamer. This is an indie game and any potential buyer is serious about rpgs one way or another. And there is still time for advertising, especially when the game has more to show with polished elements (I believe thats what the Iron tower crew is doing right now?)

Strongly agree with that. You can't get average gamers with articles, no matter how well-written and retard-friendly. The way I see it, I can get through to the hardcore audience by doing exactly what I've been doing until now and once the game is out, excitement of people who are playing it and talking about it will start getting through to a wider audience.

I agree. Word of mouth is your strongest hype machine. You can't do anything about that yet, since you are still pounding away at the game. If you release something new every few months, maybe a couple screenshots, an interview, a video, just to keep it appearing on rpg sites and to keep people talking about it other then Codex regulars. That's all you really can do right now, and I think you have done a pretty good job of it so far.


I don't recommend you change you sarcasm, but maybe tone down the inside jokes in these articles. It just leaves some people confuzzled(non Codex posters).

 

[Mamon]

Will this game be playable on a 233ghz with 128mbRAM?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I highly doubt it.

 

[Nick]

233ghz

If you have that kind of technology, share it with mankind

 

[cardtrick]

233 GHz? Ghz mean nothing these days. AMD is better, I read it on a forum, and my friend has had three AMD processors and they were all really damn fast.

 

[Elhoim]

233ghz

If you have that kind of technology, share it with mankind

 

[Mamon]

hahaha

 

[Nick]

hahaha

Seriously, though, you'd better have at least 512 MBs of RAM. Lightmaps have significantly raised the RAM requirements, and even TGE sysreqs at GarageGames site say:

Pentium III 1000, 512 MB RAM

We'll be able to be precise about that before release.

Oh, before you ask: Thursday.

 

[Mamon]

Man, I am very bad at making jokes

 

[Mamon]

Man, I am very bad at making jokes

Edit: Double post.

 

[Nick]

Man, I am very bad at making jokes

Or maybe I'm just bad at reading them, at 3AM. Good night =)

 

[Blue]

In light of the recent events, my thoughts on this matter make me feel much better. Hope your reconsidering moving the forums VD (even though, from your comments in other threads it doesn't sound like you are).