Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

A tiny difference that could be eliminated by making spells scale with spellcaster's level, like in BG... Sawyer's approach means all your low level spells will be worthless in end-game, hurray.

I just played BG2 with SCS. Literally finished it two days ago. The number of times I used spells below 6th level after getting half-way through the game is abysmal. Only spells I used somewhat often were:

- Lower Resistance (only in sequencers/triggers)
- Haste
- Remove Magic
- Magic Missile (again, only in sequencers or in Alacrity-storms)

Mirror Image is literally useless. All damagespells except the missiles are as well (and missiles only become useful in very specific situations).

I get that theoretically these spells were OK, and you can certainly abuse Mirror Image against horrible AI so they become a second stoneskin in Vanilla (though most key fights dispel illusions here as well), but come on. Scaling or no scaling, the usage of low level spells in high level IE-combat was incredibly restricted. You can talk about theoretically all you want, but when it comes to efficient use of your mages in BG2, casting high level spells was certainly the way to go.

Sawyer's idea to convert restricted-use spells to being less restricted (Daily -> Encounter -> At will) is one of his few really great ideas.

EDIT: Your best spells at high level BG2 are Spellstrike, Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, Comet, Spell Trigger, Spell Sequencer, Spell Trap, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Dragon Breath, Energy Blades, Summon Deva, Pierce Shield, Khelben's Warding Whip, Immunity-spells, stuff like that.

Of course, you do use lower level spells when you run out (which you rarely do), but then that's the case in PoE as well.

 

[HiddenX]

SuicideBunny
Then let's just hope a lot of non-hostile conflict resolution options are really build into the game.
Otherwise not giving XP for a win in a combat heavy game is complete bullshit.

 

[Grunker]

SuicideBunny
Then let's just hope a lot of non-hostile conflict resolution options are really build into the game.

You don't need to hope. Unless the BETA is completely misleading here, non-combat solutions will be way more diverse and recurring than in any IE-game. Not that that's saying a ton, but there you have it.

 

[Sensuki]

I actually think the decision to have suppressed buffs is a good idea now, as in creating our attribute system proposal - one of our changes would create OPness if not for the buff suppression.

 

[Raapys]

A tiny difference that could be eliminated by making spells scale with spellcaster's level, like in BG... Sawyer's approach means all your low level spells will be worthless in end-game, hurray.

I just played BG2 with SCS. Literally finished it two days ago. The number of times I used spells below 6th level after getting half-way through the game is abysmal. Only spells I used somewhat often were:

- Lower Resistance (only in sequencers/triggers)
- Haste
- Remove Magic
- Magic Missile (again, only in sequencers or in Alacrity-storms)

Mirror Image is literally useless. All damagespells except the missiles are as well (and missiles only become useful in very specific situations).

I get that theoretically these spells were OK, and you can certainly abuse Mirror Image against horrible AI so they become a second stoneskin in Vanilla (though most key fights dispel illusions here as well), but come on. Scaling or no scaling, the usage of low level spells in high level IE-combat was incredibly restricted. You can talk about theoretically all you want, but when it comes to efficient use of your mages in BG2, casting high level spells was certainly the way to go.

I generally solo BG2 with a sorcerer when I play it, and find plenty of low level spells useful throughout the mid- and late-game:

Lvl1:
Identify
Magic Missile
Burning Hands(offing trolls)
Lvl2:
Blur
Invisibility
Knock
Vocalize(depending on encounter)
Mirror Image
Lvl3:
Flame Arrow(Awesome single target dmg at any level)
Skull Trap(the second most damaging spell in the game at high levels? Ridiculous when sequenced x3)
Haste
Lvl4:
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye(invaluable when combined with Project Image, the most overpowered spell)
Lvl5:
Animate Dead
Breach
Lower Resistance

So to conclude, you are wrong.

 

[Grunker]

Soling you actually run dry of resources in key fights, so I can imagine. Also summoning spells that aren't highest level actually become useful. Mirror Image is still useless against halfway competent AI though.

Edit: skulltrap doesn't really count, the lack of damage ceiling is a bug.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Magic is banal in P:E cause balance and no hard counters for casuals (Casting protection from petrification before facing a basilisk? TOO HARD TO REMEMBER!!!111!!!)

And there is no INGAME reward for the act of combat in itself. So now Josh encourages sneaking in a combat centric moba/rpg.
Also obscenely degenerate amounts of metagaming is encouraged.. Check which mobs drop/guard good lewt... only then engage in combat if it is not required by a quest.

 

[Sensuki]

Chromatic Orb can be a laugh, one shotted several dragons with it. Usually it happens when Fighting the Shadow Dragon

Greater Malison is p. good as well.

 

[Cadmus]

t allows much better control over power progression and thus easier fitting of difficulty to the power range of the players at any given moment, and prevents being able to trivialize content by farming something and overlevelling severely.

You see, this is what I don't like at all. I think that's pretty close the level scaling. Yeah, it gives the developer the opportunity to throw in some high-difficulty encounters at will, but let's not kid ourselves, that most likely won't happen. It will be a steady ride once you get some more stuff at your disposal, most likely as in D:OS.

I think that the power progression should be balanced around the level of challenge you want (which should be high) but make it possible for a player to "git gud" and lower the challenge for himself by working on his character more (e.g. Gothic)

Maybe it will work nicely anyway.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Do people even understand what degenerative gaming means?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

So, why isn't the spider queen worthy of xp?

Because there's not a bounty on her head. You only get XP if you're an obedient servant.

 

[covr]

Magic is banal in P:E cause balance and no hard counters for casuals (Casting protection from petrification before facing a basilisk? TOO HARD TO REMEMBER!!!111!!!)

And there is no INGAME reward for the act of combat in itself. So now Josh encourages sneaking in a combat centric moba/rpg.
Also obscenely degenerate amounts of metagaming is encouraged.. Check which mobs drop/guard good lewt... only then engage in combat if it is not required by a quest.

You just could... not metagame. Have fun, explore enemies and their rewards by your own.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Lvl1:
Identify
Magic Missile
Burning Hands(offing trolls)
Lvl2:
Blur
Invisibility
Knock
Vocalize(depending on encounter)
Mirror Image
Lvl3:
Flame Arrow(Awesome single target dmg at any level)
Skull Trap(the second most damaging spell in the game at high levels? Ridiculous when sequenced x3)
Haste
Lvl4:
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye(invaluable when combined with Project Image, the most overpowered spell)
Lvl5:
Animate Dead
Breach
Lower Resistance

So to conclude, you are wrong.

Spell Immunity (depending on the situation)? Slow?

 

[Raapys]

Soling you actually run dry of resources in key fights, so I can imagine. Also summoning spells that aren't highest level actually become useful. Mirror Image is still useless against halfway competent AI though.

Edit: skulltrap doesn't really count, the lack of damage ceiling is a bug.

The lack of damage ceiling is awesome.

Also, the reason you want Animate Dead is because you get an 80%~ magic resistant summons with great damage, lasts for 8 hours and of which you can have 5 at the same time.

 

[SuicideBunny]

And there is no INGAME reward for the act of combat in itself.

loot is no ingame reward?

You see, this is what I don't like at all. I think that's pretty close the level scaling.

level scaling in itself is not a bad thing, it's the concrete implementations that suck. like the hp bloat of enemies at higher levels, replacing entire kinds of enemies with something else so all of a sudden your world has no wolves in it because the player got powerful, or oblivion's bandits in glass armor.. plus the fact that you're most certainly better off using a system without levels if you implement level scaling of everything.

 

[Sensuki]

This latest discussion about BG2 spells reminds me of this:

 

[Grunker]

The lack of damage ceiling is awesome.

That doesn't make it intended.

 

[Raapys]

Spell Immunity (depending on the situation)? Slow?

Yeah, Spell Immunity is great for some fights. I don't use slow much though, busy casting more potent stuff.

 

[Grunker]

Spell Immunity (depending on the situation)? Slow?

Slow is sub-par in all situations I can think of.

This latest discussion about BG2 spells reminds me]

How exactly? Felipepepe's was trying to make the point that BG2 spells stay more useful than PoE spells. That's still untrue.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Spell Immunity (depending on the situation)? Slow?

Slow is sub-par in all situations I can think of.

Well, I find it useful for softening up melee mobs, especially If I have good ranged chars. Useless if you're soloing as a mage/sorcerer I guess.

 

[Grunker]

Well, I find it useful for softening up melee mobs.

We're talking high level here, otherwise the discussion is kind of pointless. Can't think of any mobs that slow would be good against. It does dispel haste, but then so does better catch all dispels

Not saying it's useless, mind, just making my argument in connection to Felipe's broad statement of PoE low level spells vs. IE engine spells.

 

[Sensuki]

How exactly?

Oh it just started out as "these are the only spells worth using at high levels" and then we all started adding a few more. More ... that's got a nice woody sound to it mooooooooooooore

 

[Raapys]

The lack of damage ceiling is awesome.

That doesn't make it intended.

Seems strange though. Why would they forget it on just that spell? I assume then it was supposed to be like Fireball with a lvl 10 dmg ceiling?

It's odd but I can't find a reference to Skull Trap(cept BG2) anywhere on the web, so I don't know its original design.

 

[Grunker]

Oh it just started out as "these are the only spells worth using at high levels" and then we all started adding a few more. More ... that's got a nice woody sound to it mooooooooooooore

What 'a few more'? The only substantial ones were provided by Raapys, and they only apply to solo runs.

I can claim that I use low-level spells in PoE as well, but we're discussing here whether there was some sort of build-in reason to do so in the IE over PoE. There isn't. The theoritcal scalings IMO don't factor in to the long game except for the spells I noted.

 

[Grunker]

Seems strange though. Why would they forget it on just that spell? I assume then it was supposed to be like Fireball with a lvl 10 dmg ceiling?.

They didn't, they simply didn't think about it. There are a lot of assets especially in BG2 that weren't even used by testers, or so the stories go.

I think it was Gaider that said they probably would have capped it a 12D if they had thought about it (that's why SCS uses that cap IIRC) but I can't findthe quote.