Please help me understand something about Neverwinter Nights

[Mrowak]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Please, don't conflate Faerun (the setting), D&D (the system) and NWN 1 (the video game).

In most PnP RPGs setting nearly tantamounts with the system (which was created to depict the setting, and not the other way round).

That's why each Warhammer, D&D, Vampire: The Masquarade, Changeling, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk have their own settings.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Please, don't conflate Faerun (the setting), D&D (the system) and NWN 1 (the video game).

In most PnP RPGs setting nearly tantamounts with the system (which was created to depict the setting, and not the other way round).

Well, no. D&D =/= Forgotten Realms (where NWN 1 takes place), there are a great many other settings that use D&D (Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, full list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_campaign_settings).

The retardation of NWN 1 comes from game developers, not D&D or Forgotten Realms.

 

[Mrowak]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Please, don't conflate Faerun (the setting), D&D (the system) and NWN 1 (the video game).

In most PnP RPGs setting nearly tantamounts with the system (which was created to depict the setting, and not the other way round).

Well, no. D&D =/= Forgotten Realms (where NWN 1 takes place), there are a great many other settings that use D&D (Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, full list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_campaign_settings).

As a D&D veteran I say true to that. But that doesn't change the fact practically all of those settings are derpy (they are cool, but if you start asking questions, like "how the economy works?" they pretty much fall apart) on some level so trying to defend bullshit with "duh, they can't affort healing, although it's present everywhere" is just asking for it.

The retardation of NWN 1 comes from game developers, not D&D or Forgotten Realms.

Now that's again a fact. The real issue with the plague was how unconvincingly the state of affairs was presented even if you take into consideration what the setting establishes to be possible.

 

[Xavier0889]

Having access to magic isn't the same to understanding how it works. Half of the world has a pc, but few of them know how it really works; they just used it as an enhanced tv/radio, typewriter or as a game system. In the same way, in IRL medieval times the copyist wrote many books without even knowing how to read and write, since they were merely copying funky drawings. Having a wand, a scroll or a magic reagent doesn't make you a mage, specially since thieves are all around the place.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Bro, you can squabble all you want but the fact is D&D wants to be sorta Renaissance, but with MAGIC... and it kinda fails at it, because it doesn't account for the magnitude of the impact it would have as defined by the ruleset. Everything from daily chores to economy is pretty much fucked up. And moreso in NWN1.

It wouldn't be because of the proportions of the whole thing. Mages and clerics aren't fucking machines and they aren't common. According to 2nd ed DMG, you get 1 level 1+ character per 100 people and 15-20 level 1+ cleric per 100 level 1+ characters. That would be 1 cleric per 500-600 people.

 

[vorvek]

It wouldn't be because of the proportions of the whole thing. Mages and clerics aren't fucking machines and they aren't common. According to 2nd ed DMG, you get 1 level 1+ character per 100 people and 15-20 level 1+ cleric per 100 level 1+ characters. That would be 1 cleric per 500-600 people.

15 clerics / 100 heroes -> 1 cleric / 666.67 people
20 clerics / 100 heroes -> 1 cleric / 500 people

Also, that takes into account evil clerics as well.

 

[vorvek]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Please, don't conflate Faerun (the setting), D&D (the system) and NWN 1 (the video game).

In most PnP RPGs setting nearly tantamounts with the system (which was created to depict the setting, and not the other way round).

That's why each Warhammer, D&D, Vampire: The Masquarade, Changeling, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk have their own settings.

Sadly for your argument, D&D's main setting is Greyhawk (the one used in ToEE), not Forgotten Realms. Changeling and Vampire: The Masquerade aren't game systems, but adaptations of the Storyteller System, that is also used in Exalted, for example, in a setting that has nothing to do with World of Darkness.

 

[Modron]

It wouldn't be because of the proportions of the whole thing. Mages and clerics aren't fucking machines and they aren't common. According to 2nd ed DMG, you get 1 level 1+ character per 100 people and 15-20 level 1+ cleric per 100 level 1+ characters. That would be 1 cleric per 500-600 people.

That kind of goes back to the whole clerics should be able to cure everyone, I mean there would be a level 15-20 cleric for every 10,000 people. Assuming an average level 15-20 cleric can cast 5-6 cure disease spells a day then they should be able to clear the world in less than 6 years should every single person in the world get infected (which would never happen lest it be the work of the divinities). One small pilgrimage and establishment of proper quarantine procedures and any single city plague could be knocked out in a day. Clerics without Borders for the banality.*

*granted not all clerics can cure disease and not all clerics would associate, let alone work with, each other.

 

[Murk]

You must be kidding it is our cities who are full of cavemen if they torched London for a week cause mere gangster was shot by Police imagine the ITZ pandemic disease would create.

Now that is a sentence; you could write any other sentence on a 4x4 block of wood and beat me over the head with it and it wouldn't be as skull-shattering as that sentence right there.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

That kind of goes back to the whole clerics should be able to cure everyone, I mean there would be a level 15-20 cleric for every 10,000 people.

According to the calculations from the table that I have cited, it would be 1 per 210,000 people.
There would be 1 level 5-10 cleric for 1,800 people, though.
On the other hand, people who are cured by cure disease spell don't gain immunity so they can get ill again.

Also, some of these clerics will be evil.

15 clerics / 100 heroes -> 1 cleric / 666.67 people
20 clerics / 100 heroes -> 1 cleric / 500 people

Also, that takes into account evil clerics as well.

True.

 

[sea]

The good:

Charwood was fun, had a nice sense of mystery and magic to it.

Luskan I liked, nice mini quest hub with both multiple factions to support (or you can slaughter both) and multiple ways to infiltrate them.

Host Tower was a cool dungeon, reminded me a lot of the Iron Throne but the "different themes on each floor" thing was entertaining and far more fast-paced than any other part of the game.

Now...

Can someone please explain to me:

1) Where the hell does the Luskan army come from? Luskan, from what I saw, was more or less utterly destroyed. Its High Captains basically waged a bloody street war that led to mass looting, chaos and deaths of innocents. I killed both factions, which means basically everyone capable of lifting a sword is dead. So I repeat again, where the fuck did the army come from? Where was it this whole time? Why does it suddenly decide to follow a former Neverwinter paladin into battle, for apparently no reason, especially when they have the far more pressing concern of their home being basically in ruins?

2) Why the hell is Luskan attacking Neverwinter? Okay, I get the fact that it's the lizardman cult that's manipulating them and getting them to start a war, but why are they marching to battle? Sure, Neverwinter and Luskan aren't the best allies but what could possibly make them turn on each other when both cities are so devastated? They should be cooperating to solve their respective issues. Oh, but now a lizardman shaman and a demon-possessed knight appear and tells them all to fight their neighbor. Is everyone on drugs? What does Luskan stand to gain by destroying Neverwinter? Okay, maybe they're all just Chaotic Evil in Luskan (must be something in the water), but what could possibly make them want to risk everything just to beat Neverwinter? Do they realize that following an ancient lizardman snake cult that considers mammals slave races probably won't end well for them?

3) So we're looking for the Words of Power, and it's made very clear we don't know anything about them. Not even the spymaster has a clue as to where they are and what they might be. The Host Tower is in ruins and all its members are dead or gone, so the biggest source of arcane lore and talent in the land can also be ruled out. Yet somehow, even with our complete lack of knowledge, in the span of a short narration we are able to somehow figure out they are located amongst the barbarians in the north end of the Sword Coast. How fucking convenient that Neverwinter, with its forces in ruins and only a handful of adventurers left to protect it, can uncover this incredibly ancient, secret knowledge in a matter of days or weeks, while the lizard cult has been searching and plotting for... uh, like fucking centuries?

4) Come to think of it, what the hell is the lizard cult's plan? Okay, weaken Neverwinter, got it, destroy Neverwinter using Luskan, got it. But why the fuck did they apparently leave this Words of Power stuff to the last minute? If I had thousands of years to brew, stew and generally cult around the place, and my plan for world domination required many years of work to slowly infiltrate society and build an army, I think it'd probably be a good idea to, you know, not set the plan in motion until all the key parts were in place. Knowing the Words of Power for when they actually needed them sure would have been useful! And really, they've waited hundreds or even thousands of years for their snake-mistress to reconstitute herself, what's another decade or two to get the Words of Power sorted out? What is so pressing about completing their plot right now, that they enacted it before it was ready?

5) So Aribeth joined the enemy, right? Okay, that's fine. But what's up with her reasons? She's sad that Fenthick, her lover, is dead. I get it. I mean, I'm not sure why she loved him in the first place, what with his girlish grin and whiny voice, but discounting that, it's enough to mess with someone to see the person you love hanging from a tree by the neck. I also don't mind that her mad desire for revenge against those responsible for his death - the lizardman cult, the False Helmites, etc. - would cause her to fall. That works out fine. But fucking Christ, did anyone tell Aribeth that gaining revenge does not involve joining the enemy faction you wanted to seek revenge on in the first place and turn on your own allies? Now I know the way she speaks isn't just a holier-than-thou inflection, but the result of what I can only assume is extensive brain damage.

 

[Jaesun]

BioWare innovation, obviously.

 

[Commissar Draco]

You cannot comprehend the genius mind of lizardmen Biowhore dews. Compared to this brain-fart NWN2 OC is competent even if some parts (city watch/mob and orc invasion) could be cut out to make it more lean and coherent... come on our party can't bribe/intimidate/bluff the guard? or find hole in the fence? Worst band of adventures ever.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Goddamit sea

NWN has terrible writing. Deal with it.

Commissar Draco

Instead of Tab you press X in NWN2.

 

[mediocrepoet]

But fucking Christ, did anyone tell Aribeth that gaining revenge does not involve joining the enemy faction you wanted to seek revenge on in the first place and turn on your own allies?

It was foreshadowing KotOR. In fact that's the single bit of Star Wars lore that always struck me as being handled incredibly stupidly. I'm dark side now, time to kill all my friends!

 

[Commissar Draco]

But fucking Christ, did anyone tell Aribeth that gaining revenge does not involve joining the enemy faction you wanted to seek revenge on in the first place and turn on your own allies?

It was foreshadowing KotOR. In fact that's the single bit of Star Wars lore that always struck me as being handled incredibly stupidly. I'm dark side now, time to kill all my friends!

Or rather my ''friends'' acts retardo and commit suicide by Revan. Bindo who is blabbing entire game about grey side of Force and not taking sides acts like Vrook, and ex Sith Cat women decides to join in, the tentacle girl refuses to change side or run... Like ''Hero'' of Republic Did. (the whiny bitch I did wanted to strangle : x ) In Kotor II you could kill or sacrifice them all but as Kreia said making them see Your Truth; converting them was much more satisfying.

 

[Mrowak]

The good:

Charwood was fun, had a nice sense of mystery and magic to it.

Luskan I liked, nice mini quest hub with both multiple factions to support (or you can slaughter both) and multiple ways to infiltrate them.

Host Tower was a cool dungeon, reminded me a lot of the Iron Throne but the "different themes on each floor" thing was entertaining and far more fast-paced than any other part of the game.

Now...

Can someone please explain to me:

1) Where the hell does the Luskan army come from? Luskan, from what I saw, was more or less utterly destroyed. Its High Captains basically waged a bloody street war that led to mass looting, chaos and deaths of innocents. I killed both factions, which means basically everyone capable of lifting a sword is dead. So I repeat again, where the fuck did the army come from? Where was it this whole time? Why does it suddenly decide to follow a former Neverwinter paladin into battle, for apparently no reason, especially when they have the far more pressing concern of their home being basically in ruins?

2) Why the hell is Luskan attacking Neverwinter? Okay, I get the fact that it's the lizardman cult that's manipulating them and getting them to start a war, but why are they marching to battle? Sure, Neverwinter and Luskan aren't the best allies but what could possibly make them turn on each other when both cities are so devastated? They should be cooperating to solve their respective issues. Oh, but now a lizardman shaman and a demon-possessed knight appear and tells them all to fight their neighbor. Is everyone on drugs? What does Luskan stand to gain by destroying Neverwinter? Okay, maybe they're all just Chaotic Evil in Luskan (must be something in the water), but what could possibly make them want to risk everything just to beat Neverwinter? Do they realize that following an ancient lizardman snake cult that considers mammals slave races probably won't end well for them?

3) So we're looking for the Words of Power, and it's made very clear we don't know anything about them. Not even the spymaster has a clue as to where they are and what they might be. The Host Tower is in ruins and all its members are dead or gone, so the biggest source of arcane lore and talent in the land can also be ruled out. Yet somehow, even with our complete lack of knowledge, in the span of a short narration we are able to somehow figure out they are located amongst the barbarians in the north end of the Sword Coast. How fucking convenient that Neverwinter, with its forces in ruins and only a handful of adventurers left to protect it, can uncover this incredibly ancient, secret knowledge in a matter of days or weeks, while the lizard cult has been searching and plotting for... uh, like fucking centuries?

4) Come to think of it, what the hell is the lizard cult's plan? Okay, weaken Neverwinter, got it, destroy Neverwinter using Luskan, got it. But why the fuck did they apparently leave this Words of Power stuff to the last minute? If I had thousands of years to brew, stew and generally cult around the place, and my plan for world domination required many years of work to slowly infiltrate society and build an army, I think it'd probably be a good idea to, you know, not set the plan in motion until all the key parts were in place. Knowing the Words of Power for when they actually needed them sure would have been useful! And really, they've waited hundreds or even thousands of years for their snake-mistress to reconstitute herself, what's another decade or two to get the Words of Power sorted out? What is so pressing about completing their plot right now, that they enacted it before it was ready?

5) So Aribeth joined the enemy, right? Okay, that's fine. But what's up with her reasons? She's sad that Fenthick, her lover, is dead. I get it. I mean, I'm not sure why she loved him in the first place, what with his girlish grin and whiny voice, but discounting that, it's enough to mess with someone to see the person you love hanging from a tree by the neck. I also don't mind that her mad desire for revenge against those responsible for his death - the lizardman cult, the False Helmites, etc. - would cause her to fall. That works out fine. But fucking Christ, did anyone tell Aribeth that gaining revenge does not involve joining the enemy faction you wanted to seek revenge on in the first place and turn on your own allies? Now I know the way she speaks isn't just a holier-than-thou inflection, but the result of what I can only assume is extensive brain damage.

You... you remember so much about NWN1? My condolences. I somehow managed to wipe most of it from my memory.

 

[Commissar Draco]

^ He plays it now... Not sure if to his bravery or laugh.

 

[Shadenuat]

I hope Sea is't trying to find every RPG which has worse plot than his Thirst. Because he will have to play and suffer a lot then.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

 

[DwarvenFood]

sea , Stargate SG-1 and NWN1 Vanilla ? Are you punishing yourself for Gamebanshee top cRPGs of 2012 or something ? :D

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

I

But fucking Christ, did anyone tell Aribeth that

gaining revenge does not involve joining the enemy faction you wanted to seek revenge on in the first place and turn on your own allies?

It was foreshadowing KotOR. In fact that's the single bit of Star Wars lore that always struck me as being handled incredibly stupidly. I'm dark side now, time to kill all my friends!

Or rather my ''friends'' acts retardo and commit suicide by Revan. Bindo who is blabbing entire game about grey side of Force and not taking sides acts like Vrook, and ex Sith Cat women decides to join in, the tentacle girl refuses to change side or run... Like ''Hero'' of Republic Did. (the whiny bitch I did wanted to strangle : x ) In Kotor II you could kill or sacrifice them all but as Kreia said making them see Your Truth; converting them was much more satisfying.

It's not like Bioware recycles it's characters and slaps new names on them or anything.
Playing Jade Empire after finishing NeverplayOCnights 1 and KOTOR 1 I already knew how the game would end 30 minutes in.

Originality is something that happens only to other people.

 

[Shiki]

Resurrection mechanisms are broken in Bioware's games because they can't make a sensible combat system and they put a resurrection spell that doesn't work like the pen and paper version as a crutch to avoid save scumming. D&D has a lot of creatures that can instantly kill you or close to it and in a game that is played with a RTWP system with a party of 6 most players are bound to encounter a few deaths per battles. In particular, fights against dragons or illithids would be pretty nasty with this engine without this crutch.

I don't find the resurrection spell broken in the P&P version of D&D simply because it's expensive, it cost XP and any dungeon master worth his salt will not let you abuse it all the time, not to mention that it's not that common for a P&P game to last long enough for your party to reach the kind of level where you can use that spell in the first place.
It's not d&d's fault, or the setting, it's Bioware that fails.

Also, for all its faults, Baldur's Gate 1 took its time to get you from lvl 1 to 7 (and lvl 7 wasn't excessively high for AD&D2), while a game like NWN will get you to god-like status pretty quickly. D&D wasn't really meant for a group that kills dragons after dragons after dragons and you wouldn't find a lot of roleplayers who'd keep playing after reaching the highest levels of the ruleset, at this point you might as well just call it a day and create a new campaign/party. By the end of Throne of Bhaal you could probably kill the tarrasque.. and no sane DM would let a group fight the tarrasque.

 

[Ulminati]

^ He plays it now... Not sure if to his bravery or laugh.

For a man playing the NWN OC there can be neither respect, nor contempt. Only pity.

 

[vorvek]

Resurrection mechanisms are broken in Bioware's games because they can't make a sensible combat system and they put a resurrection spell that doesn't work like the pen and paper version as a crutch to avoid save scumming. D&D has a lot of creatures that can instantly kill you or close to it and in a game that is played with a RTWP system with a party of 6 most players are bound to encounter a few deaths per battles. In particular, fights against dragons or illithids would be pretty nasty with this engine without this crutch.

In the singleplayer campaigns of NWN your party consists at most of 2 characters, not 6. If you are talking about Baldur's Gate, it's funny, because there was even permadeath there (although you could savescum it away).

I don't find the resurrection spell broken in the P&P version of D&D simply because it's expensive, it cost XP and any dungeon master worth his salt will not let you abuse it all the time, not to mention that it's not that common for a P&P game to last long enough for your party to reach the kind of level where you can use that spell in the first place.

A game of D&D doesn't need to begin with level 1 characters. Most games I've played, in fact, began at level 3 or even 5. Last time I played I joined a group that had been playing for a few months, 4 or 5 sessions a week, so my Warblade was born with level 14.

It's not d&d's fault, or the setting, it's Bioware that fails.

You obviously haven't played any Forgotten Realms based campaign, at least following the printed scenarios. You find stuff like Elminster playing catch with a dog using a wand of resurrection that he then proceeds to give to the party. Forgotten Realms is just broken, and higher level stuff is more common than in most other settings.

Also, for all its faults, Baldur's Gate 1 took its time to get you from lvl 1 to 7 (and lvl 7 wasn't excessively high for AD&D2)

In Baldur's Gate it took time to level to 7 because most of the enemies you were fighting were CR1 trash mobs. At level 4 80% of the encounters in the game were already a chore.

[quote "Shiki, post: 2493426, member: 14396"] while a game like NWN will get you to god-like status pretty quickly. D&D wasn't really meant for a group that kills dragons after dragons after dragons and you wouldn't find a lot of roleplayers who'd keep playing after reaching the highest levels of the ruleset, at this point you might as well just call it a day and create a new campaign/party. By the end of Throne of Bhaal you could probably kill the tarrasque.. and no sane DM would let a group fight the tarrasque.[/quote]

Except the Tarrasque is a fairly easy to beat monster unless you don't understand the rules of the game. A level 7 cleric can summon an allip, for example (incorporeal undead, CR3) that the oh-so-mighty-tarrasque can't hit, while the allip can just drain its wisdom until it reaches 0, thus rendering the monster useless. Also, a level 3 cleric with the right couple of feats could just rebuke a random allip, so, yeah. You don't need to be an epic character, and there are MANY harder monsters in the SRD that you would fight without doubting the sanity of your DM, like Pit Fiends, Balors or Solars. Because in the end, the tarrasque is but a slow-moving flesh tank that can't reach a group that flies as it can only attack in melee.

Also, you are comparing two different rulesets, since ADnD 2.5 and DnD 3.0 have little in common when it comes to character progression.

And, to finish, you say that DnD wasn't meant for a group that "kills dragons, after dragons, after dragons", yet a whole "Epic Level Handbook" exists. Among other thing it contains the character sheets of Elminster, The Simbul, Halaster Blackcloak, Alustriel, Manshoon, Khelben Blackstaff and some other Mary Sue abominations by Wizards of the Coast. If you have a setting that revolves basically about magic empires controlled by level 40 characters maintaining some sort of statu quo, you can't just go and say "but the players aren't supposed to reach those levels, they should just roll a different party when their level gets above my comfort zone".