Point-buy or trainer system?

[soggie]

I'm designing mastery levels for my character stat system, and came to a point where I have to make a choice between making it a point-buy system or a trainer system.

How the stat system currently works is, every stat has a rank between 1 and 5 (specialized stats rank from 0 to 5). For every specialized stat (e.g. sidearm, security, willpower, etc), you can have a maximum of 3 mastery levels, each of which provides an active or passive skill which you can employ in different situations.

On every level up, you get a number of stat points to spend. 5 stat points buy a rank of general stat, while 10 stat points buy a rank of specialized stat.

Here's where the question comes in: do I set it so that you need to spend an extra 8 stat points to purchase a mastery level for a specialized stat (point-buy system), or have an NPC exist in the world that trains your character to that mastery level (trainer system, similar to Might & Magic)?

It used to be fun in M&M to hunt down trainers for me. However, if we do it in a trainer system, how do we handle situations where the trainer is killed?

What do you think? Point buy or trainer system?

 

[JarlFrank]

Trainer system.

 

[soggie]

That was fast. O_o

 

[zeitgeist]

From the skill descriptions I've seen on your site, it appears that for some skills a trainer would be needed, while for others, a point-buy or a skill book of some sort would fit better, because it doesn't really make sense to have to learn some of those skills from a trainer. I don't think any of the solutions would fit all the listed skills universally.

 

[soggie]

From the skill descriptions I've seen on your site, it appears that for some skills a trainer would be needed, while for others, a point-buy or a skill book of some sort would fit better, because it doesn't really make sense to have to learn some of those skills from a trainer. I don't think any of the solutions would fit all the listed skills universally.

If we cast the issue of realism aside, which mechanism would be more fun? Would trainer system be a little too tedious, or would it add flavor (and number of quests) to the game?

 

[zeitgeist]

If we cast the issue of realism aside, which mechanism would be more fun? Would trainer system be a little too tedious, or would it add flavor (and number of quests) to the game?

Realism and the current skill system aside, the concept of having to learn special skills from NPCs is sound, but it kind of loses its charm if it's presented in an overly formalized manner - if you have your character screen with three special skills, and you pretty much know you'll have to go and learn all three at some point, it becomes just another "gotta catch 'em all" thing.

I'm not entirely sure how to capture that "a cave-dwelling hermit saved my life when I fell into a hole while hiking and he also taught me how to focus my chi" or "I trained with the rebel militia in my village who taught me these hand-to-hand combat moves" concept, that would probably be my personal ideal of how this should work, without having a ridiculously large number of special skills or even skill trees (and quests/trainers/situations related to them) to choose from. Fallout and Arcanum abstracted this into traits/perks which was a pretty decent compromise, but it could've been more complex and tied into the actual gameplay more instead of just being something you choose in the character screen.

From the posts on the site I can't quote discern what exactly are the planned ways to customize a character - there is the basic stat/skill system, but what do concepts like Hidden Tiger Pounce (Learned Technique) or Striking Familiarity Level 3 fall under, for example? Are they traits/perks, is there a special system of acquiring combat moves, or are they something you get when you achieve a certain skill level?

 

[JarlFrank]

"a cave-dwelling hermit saved my life when I fell into a hole while hiking and he also taught me how to focus my chi" or "I trained with the rebel militia in my village who taught me these hand-to-hand combat moves" concept, that would probably be my personal ideal of how this should work

Yeah I like that idea. Arcanum did the trainer-thing rather well. Gives additional quests and adds flavour to the game, as you can't become a super-master at everything just by gaining XP and putting points into stats, you actually have to visit a pro to tell you how it's done if you wanna be TEH BEST.

 

[soggie]

If we cast the issue of realism aside, which mechanism would be more fun? Would trainer system be a little too tedious, or would it add flavor (and number of quests) to the game?

Realism and the current skill system aside, the concept of having to learn special skills from NPCs is sound, but it kind of loses its charm if it's presented in an overly formalized manner - if you have your character screen with three special skills, and you pretty much know you'll have to go and learn all three at some point, it becomes just another "gotta catch 'em all" thing.

I'm not entirely sure how to capture that "a cave-dwelling hermit saved my life when I fell into a hole while hiking and he also taught me how to focus my chi" or "I trained with the rebel militia in my village who taught me these hand-to-hand combat moves" concept, that would probably be my personal ideal of how this should work, without having a ridiculously large number of special skills or even skill trees (and quests/trainers/situations related to them) to choose from. Fallout and Arcanum abstracted this into traits/perks which was a pretty decent compromise, but it could've been more complex and tied into the actual gameplay more instead of just being something you choose in the character screen.

From the posts on the site I can't quote discern what exactly are the planned ways to customize a character - there is the basic stat/skill system, but what do concepts like Hidden Tiger Pounce (Learned Technique) or Striking Familiarity Level 3 fall under, for example? Are they traits/perks, is there a special system of acquiring combat moves, or are they something you get when you achieve a certain skill level?

First off, there's general stats and specialized stats, which I think you know already.

Then you have familiarity levels, which is a use-based system where killing a dozen bandits with a knife would net you an increase in familiarity, which basically improves the speed of your actions. Same thing with lock picking - improve the familiarity towards a specific lock and you unlock it faster the next time you encounter it.

Mastery levels on the other hand, acts like feats/perks in the game. They are supposed to provide significant boost to a particular stat, which makes increasing the ranks of stats more meaningful and rewarding.

It's pretty close to Bloodlines, which uses the Storyteller system. I merely added familiarity and mastery levels on top of it.

To summarize, every time a character levels up, he gets a number of stat points to spend on his stats. That's all. In my original design I had the character gain mastery levels (and the associated skills) through trainers, but after realizing that the character level up activity is a little stale, I wondered if adding a perk system rebranded as mastery levels would add some spice to it.

 

[laclongquan]

It's actually not Arcanum but Might and Magic 8 decided the matter for me. MM8 use the trainers systems with redundancy. You can learn the same thing from around 3 guys, and since they live in the huts they are not subjected to battles to be killed. YOu also need to learn of their locations from quests or main quest progressions to do them all.

Of course, Arcanum system is also fine. Travelling around the big wild world to learn all kind of things. And do some quests for teachers before you can even learn.

As for the concern of "collect them all", dont worry too much about it. Gamers, by nature, are packrat and collectors. Completionists, even. Who can change the nature of a gamer?

 

[soggie]

Who can change the nature of a gamer?

Todd maybe?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Gamers, by nature, are packrat and collectors. Completionists, even. Who can change the nature of a gamer?

A game that can be more interesting in other ways, maybe?



I'd go with both trainers and point spending. You should be able to learn anything on your own, it should just take longer. After all, the master trainer must have acquired his skills somehow, or the one who taught him etc. Some hi-tech skills could be so hard it wouldn't be very viable to try to learn them on your own, but at least a theoretical possibility should be there.

Also consider what would fit your setting. For example if advanced skills were given to people by gods at some point, it would make sense that you cannot achieve mastery without someone else's knowledge.

 

[denizsi]

Manuals, treatises etc. ie. books. When you find such treasured items and you're at a certain level where your character is able to comprehend what he reads, you choose one to be studied, kind of like marking an entry in a journal as active quest or rather choosing a research subject in a 4X game. That will serve as the abstraction for studying that book during your travels or whetever off-screen time the PC is assumed to have.

If you choose to read other material for another skill, "reading progress" is reset (maybe unless you've read past %50).

For variety's sake and to make it more interesting, maybe there could be a few challenging quests/encounters (preferably procedurally generated), which could occur after you are at least half-way into the reading material ie. 50% completed, suited to the mastery so when you overcome all of them, you will know you've reached that point of mastery.

edit:

It could also be a series of such books. Example: You read a manual on electronics for a while, you learn some stuff. Then, you can look for other books referenced in that manual to learn advanced electronics, or something like that.

 

[laclongquan]

Why not make the book-reading linked to a specific action/skill/ability. Like a Old Language skill, many questkeepers refuse to give you quest if your OL is lower than 10. And the only way you can get the initial increase from 0 to 10 is through a perk (Ancient Language Compedidum Sessions) you can get after reading 10 big specific books. After you get the perk you can increase that skill normally but that perk is the ONLY way to open it.

Because if you think gamers gonna let the book research thing only happen while resting or travelling you got another thought coming. I always train whatever trainable skill whenever possible soonest.

 

[PandaBreeder]

It would be interesting the amount of XP it took to purchase mastery levels could be decreased by hiring trainers and/or having a specific book. Perhaps training a skill could take a certain amount of in-game time, along with XP, which could be lessened by using the aforementioned methods.

 

[zeitgeist]

It could also be a series of such books. Example: You read a manual on electronics for a while, you learn some stuff. Then, you can look for other books referenced in that manual to learn advanced electronics, or something like that.

I'm not sure how applicable it is to this game as such, but I really like this concept in the context of a post-apocalyptic game in general - it could lead to a sort of a quest for forgotten knowledge that's parallel to the main quests and subquests. You find a book, read it, compile a list of references, and set on a search for the books referenced in it, it's quite atmospheric.

 

[JarlFrank]

Since forgotten knowledge is actually a theme in our game, yeah, why not. And I've always liked the idea of reading books giving increases to some skills/stats.

 

[mondblut]

Why not both? When you are eligible for training to a special level, you need to visit/pay/do a quest/whatever for a master to unlock it; then you can put your point-buy points into it.

 

[Zomg]

Trainers are either content for your game's exploration-driven gameplay ( like having a big map with interesting nooks and crannies and an information network of clues and NPCs) or a strategic thing where you allocate time/money/resources to training. Or both.

Point-buy is for "build design" driven stuff.

They might clash because "build design" should really be up front and give you all the information you need to make spergy characters as you see fit, while exploration-type trainers are inherently obscured. If your game is so slack balance-wise that a guy can look for a trainer with a half-baked character to complete his build it's probably pretty boring (and build-driven stuff where it only comes together at max level with the best weapons is retarded, there should always be pressure on the build at every stage).

 

[Elwro]

I liked the method from the Gothics and Risen: you need to both spend points and seek an appropriate trainer (and, of course, do something for him so that he's willing to train you). Perhaps this would work for "master levels", too?

 

[soggie]

Taking into account of suggestions here in the 'dex, I'm currently settled on this mechanism:

Point-buy system for stats and trainer system for mastery levels. Also, there's a perk-like system where certain skills/feats can only be learnt through NPCs, books, data archives, and research.

Also, mastery levels require a certain level of proficiency on that particular stat, which I am raising from a range of 1-5 to 1-10 instead.

To give an example of how we'll be designing the trainer system, here's how you can gain the highest mastery level in the stat Perception:

Over the course of your travels, you'll pick up bits and pieces of history, and by combining some of the information you will eventually find a book of a fairy tale where a legendary military sniper trained his apprentice in the arts of fieldcraft. There's a hand drawn image of the apprentice would be drawn on one of the pages, and if you (the player) is perceptive enough, you will notice that it bears a slight resemblance to one of the NPC portraits, albeit much younger.

So you go hunt down the NPC, and then use the book on him. A conversation would initiate, and you'll find out that the fairy tale is in fact a true story, and he will train you in the last mastery level of perception with the classic sniper training: have you look at a bunch of objects for a split second before covering it up, and you'll then have to recall from memory what you've seen.

Alternatively, if you have the book in your inventory and you engage the NPC is conversation, and then win a particularly difficult perception and intelligence (memory) check, you'll automatically receive the dialog option too.

As you can see, for most quests like these there are 2 ways of achieving the same thing - either through meta-knowledge (from the player) or from the character that you're role playing as.

How does it sound?

 

[zeitgeist]

How does it sound?

It's pretty interesting so far. There's one decent piece of general brainstorming advice I just remembered that could be adapted to the character build system like this: try to make a few hypothetical character builds within your system (whether they're the character archetypes you usually play in RPGs, archetypes from other games, or various fictional characters) and see if they're possible to make, if they're different enough from each other to warrant a somewhat different playstyle, and if they're all at least somewhat viable or if there's clearly just a couple of builds everyone will make. For example (not necessarily applicable to your actual system of course): poison/diplomacy assassin vs marksman/sniper assassin, survivalist/trapper ranger vs hunter/stealth ranger, Blondie vs Angel Eyes, Han vs Boba, that sort of thing.

 

[soggie]

How does it sound?

It's pretty interesting so far. There's one decent piece of general brainstorming advice I just remembered that could be adapted to the character build system like this: try to make a few hypothetical character builds within your system (whether they're the character archetypes you usually play in RPGs, archetypes from other games, or various fictional characters) and see if they're possible to make, if they're different enough from each other to warrant a somewhat different playstyle, and if they're all at least somewhat viable or if there's clearly just a couple of builds everyone will make. For example (not necessarily applicable to your actual system of course): poison/diplomacy assassin vs marksman/sniper assassin, survivalist/trapper ranger vs hunter/stealth ranger, Blondie vs Angel Eyes, Han vs Boba, that sort of thing.

Excellent idea. I'm halfway through the character builder, which once done would be hosted in my website for the codex to dissect.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Oooh, yes please, I love creating characters!