Poison is bullshit

[Helton]

I don't think in a general rpg system (ie not specific campaigns) NPCs should have access to anything PCs do not, or vice versa. No special skills or items or modifiers that are literally impossible, as imposed by the system, for someone else to use.

This is why poison is such bullshit. NPC poisons me and I win, I get massive inconvenience and have to fuck around with potions or spells or go back to the pokecenter and its all the way through the fucking dungeon.

But if I poison them and lose... Well there's no fucking consequence is there!?! This is one sided and bullshit. NPCs have a "massive inconvenience" button but also have inconvenience immunity!

This applies to other effects which fuck you over after combat.

It sucks when the wimpiest little bitch hits you with poison dagger for zero damage right before you nuke his ass and oh shit its and hour of backtracking. This isn't right.

So unless the NPC is an entity outside of combat, and somehow flees, and can suffer the consequences as well -- poison should not carry over as an effect.

 

[soggie]

I haven't played an RPG that doesn't have an antidote as an item. Or continued playing one that doesn't have it.

 

[laclongquan]

Problem is, the logical existence of poison is irrefutable. On the other hand, if you can poison them, there exist an immensely cheat is that you sneak attack them once to cause poison, then run away, certain that the bugger will get poison to dead without treating.

I suppose if enemies can have instant-cure out of combat to counter that, then perhaps poison
.....

Helton, you go crazy troll on me again, dont you? your meds are out of sync?

 

[soggie]

On the other hand, if you can poison them, there exist an immensely cheat is that you sneak attack them once to cause poison, then run away, certain that the bugger will get poison to dead without treating.

Isn't that a nice mechanic to have.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Problem is, the logical existence of poison is irrefutable. On the other hand, if you can poison them, there exist an immensely cheat is that you sneak attack them once to cause poison, then run away, certain that the bugger will get poison to dead without treating.

It's not a cheat. That's what poison is designed to do.

 

[soggie]

Problem is, the logical existence of poison is irrefutable. On the other hand, if you can poison them, there exist an immensely cheat is that you sneak attack them once to cause poison, then run away, certain that the bugger will get poison to dead without treating.

It's not a cheat. That's what poison is designed to do.

This.

Tactical options like this make RPGs more appealing to rogue characters.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, and in most RPGs poison stops working after a while anyways so you won't die just because you don't have an andidote.

Which you should have if you enter a place called "Scorpion pit" or "The Swamp of Fumes" or something.

 

[Erebus]

But if I poison them and lose... Well there's no fucking consequence is there!?! This is one sided and bullshit. NPCs have a "massive inconvenience" button but also have inconvenience immunity!

That's true of many other things, since the only purpose of NPCs is to interact with you. They don't have to use their spells/equipment sparingly because they won't have to fight anyone else. And, quite often, they don't even care about their own lives.

 

[Unradscorpion]

I don't think in a general rpg system (ie not specific campaigns) NPCs should have access to anything PCs do not, or vice versa. No special skills or items or modifiers that are literally impossible, as imposed by the system, for someone else to use.

Why do you believe this symmetry will cause a good playing experience?

Poison is useful if you're fighting an enemy that's stronger than you, it makes time your advantage.

 

[soggie]

I don't think in a general rpg system (ie not specific campaigns) NPCs should have access to anything PCs do not, or vice versa. No special skills or items or modifiers that are literally impossible, as imposed by the system, for someone else to use.

Why do you believe this symmetry will cause a good playing experience?

Poison is useful if you're fighting an enemy that's stronger than you, it makes time your advantage.

Unless of course if said enemy is immune to poison... like every single fucking remotely strong monsters in D&D.

 

[Castanova]

Soooo, you want to cause inconvenience to virtual characters?

 

[mondblut]

NPCs in most games have a lifespan of a single encounter anyway. And if that's "persistent world combat" (i.e. TES, Gothic, Ravenloft, etc) where NPCs could actually keep running and not just disappear beyond some border without handing your xp, I see no reason for them not to stay poisoned and eventually die.

Either way, that's the whole RPG paradigm. Moderately powerful adventures cut through hordes of weak chaff and an occasional uberboss. Chaff is there to wear out your resources, including granting various inconveniences like poison, blindness, curse ad infinitum, since they can't possibly kill you anyway.

 

[Dire Roach]

...poison should not carry over as an effect.

Isn't this what most jrpgs have been doing for a while? Hell, FF13 even goes so far as to auto-heal all your hp after every fight. They figured drinking potions and casting healing spells after every fight is a tedious and repetitive inconvenience, so they decided to get rid of it.

 

[Zomg]

Play games Roguelikes where poison is an acute danger instead of just "cancel annoyance with X item, hope you bought them prophylactically~!"

 

[J1M]

...poison should not carry over as an effect.

Isn't this what most jrpgs have been doing for a while? Hell, FF13 even goes so far as to auto-heal all your hp after every fight. They figured drinking potions and casting healing spells after every fight is a tedious and repetitive inconvenience, so they decided to get rid of it.

Then what's the point of anything but boss monsters? Random encounters are certainly not dangerous the vast majority of the time.

 

[Zomg]

You have to carefully balance the game so that the trash fights slowly drain away your consumables etc. (and correct strategy, that should vary with every encounter, minimizes such losses) such that you're taking a bigger risk with every step you take that you can't get back out. 99.99% of games do not bother with this and just have cargo cult trash mobs that don't build towards anything, then give you a place to heal to full and get more potions or whatever bullshit mechanic every ten steps/before every set piece.

 

[Helton]

Fucking apologist pukes.

If I had a facebook this would be my status.

 

[soggie]

Fucking apologist pukes.

If I had a facebook this would be my status.

YOU DONT HAVE FACEBOOK??!?!?!?!

 

[Phelot]

It boils down to the fact that no one cares what happens to Nameless Thug #23. It's presumed that he returns to standing in the same spot until the next hero comes around.

This is another reason why cRPGs have failed to live up to PnP. I was reading some MERP module about some old keep and the brigands that live there. It's interesting that each brigand (and there were only around 8 or so) had a name, a motive, a history, and a physical description and that practically none of this would be discovered by the player if they simply attack at first site.

But anyways, the only interesting thing poison for a PC could bring beyond damaging an opponent every second for 12 seconds or something would be assassination missions. YOu could storm in and kill some noble, but that would suck so instead you could poison him to make him fall ill and die after a few days of waiting. Or maybe use a poison that drives the target mad prompting him to make irrational decisions.

All in all this would probably be treated as a quest item to "put poisoned bread on noble's table" or something boring so it wouldn't be like the poisons would have rules behind them.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You have to carefully balance the game so that the trash fights slowly drain away your consumables etc. (and correct strategy, that should vary with every encounter, minimizes such losses) such that you're taking a bigger risk with every step you take that you can't get back out. 99.99% of games do not bother with this and just have cargo cult trash mobs that don't build towards anything, then give you a place to heal to full and get more potions or whatever bullshit mechanic every ten steps/before every set piece.

Why have fights in the game at all, if they are now meaningless, as they so often are. Apparently so that Bioware can boast that completing DA:O takes 40 hours, mostly comprised of banal, shit, boring combat.

 

[DraQ]

It boils down to the fact that no one cares what happens to Nameless Thug #23. It's presumed that he returns to standing in the same spot until the next hero comes around.

This is another reason why cRPGs have failed to live up to PnP. I was reading some MERP module about some old keep and the brigands that live there. It's interesting that each brigand (and there were only around 8 or so) had a name, a motive, a history, and a physical description and that practically none of this would be discovered by the player if they simply attack at first site.

TBH all the random bandits and such had names in Morrowind. Many of the locations also contained clues implying snippets of their history.

But anyways, the only interesting thing poison for a PC could bring beyond damaging an opponent every second for 12 seconds or something would be assassination missions. YOu could storm in and kill some noble, but that would suck so instead you could poison him to make him fall ill and die after a few days of waiting. Or maybe use a poison that drives the target mad prompting him to make irrational decisions.

All in all this would probably be treated as a quest item to "put poisoned bread on noble's table" or something boring so it wouldn't be like the poisons would have rules behind them.

Another failure of closed, conventional RPG design, with no simulated world or complex, flexible mechanics, only small, separate sets of rules rigidly assigned to individual areas of activity and inconsequential set or randomized pieces like encounters destined to dissolve into the world without a trace.

Wouldn't harassing a better skilled and equipped group for days, using poisoned weapons and guerilla tactics be more fun than killing yet another <number> of <fillerenemytype> dev or RNG placed in your way?

 

[Murk]

Then what's the point of anything but boss monsters? Random encounters are certainly not dangerous the vast majority of the time.

can't speak for FF 13 but the Saga Frontier games did the same thing, HP was restored and status ailments removed, but MP/WP (non magic skills), and LP (life points) were used up.

Also, regular encounters could very easily TKO your entire party if you wandered into them blind or unready. It just changed the paradigm from managing HP over all else to managing LP over all else, but it was a neat idea and made its combat more interesting than the usual.

 

[laclongquan]

Unreal World have you fighting opponent like bear, lynx... and if you dont have good armor (multiple layers of clothes and such) you gonna get hurt. And injuries, treated injuries, heal slowly over time, like at least half a day. So you take good care in choosing your fights.

And frostbite is fucking more annoying than anything. Your body heat get lower than okay and your frostbite get refrozen and force you made a fire to treat it. And god help you if you get a questionable frostbite.