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Torment PS:Torment moral tracking changes the ending? and EXISTENTIALIZMO

CryptRat

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Yes, the endiing part is a quite literal representation of your fight against the cycle of reincarnation. The part where you reconcile with your other incarnations and literally becomes sort of a god couldn't be more concrete. If there is no distinction between your incarnation and your absolute being anymore then you're a god.

And under this prism the ending is more of an accomplishment you manage to reach than a fatality which stumbles upon your head. If you want to reach the ending you have no choice but to save yourself which is true for most video games. What's special about PS:T is the story told, not the ending relatively to the story. IMHO.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Kyl Von Kull, ok, you convinced me, but only if we assume that the conclusion that TNO comes to is what is ultimately important. I.e. he is objectively damned, but he makes his damnation bearable or even pleasurable. My whole problem is the entire rest of the game, where the hanging shadow of that damnation is hounding and inescapable, but I guess that's the point.
 

Parabalus

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The part where you reconcile with your other incarnations and literally becomes sort of a god couldn't be more concrete. If there is no distinction between your incarnation and your absolute being anymore then you're a god.

Do you guys think TNO gets "depowered" when he gets blasted down into the abyss?

I always thought picking up a random mace in the ending cinematic sort of implies it, but I'm not sure by what mechanism that would happen. Presumably he has a side in the Blood War, so weakening their soldier seems counterproductive, unless pure torture is the point, but that's not the vibe I got from the cinemtic. OTOH if not, it's doubtful you couldn't get out.

I never liked to think too much about the finality of the ending since "objectively" damned means very little in a Planescape setting, kinda undermines it a bit.
 

Big Wrangle

Guest
Who knows? ThoughI think it ultimately doesn't matter. That's why TNO walks confidently to the battlefield; after facing this long-runing mental torment through multiple lives and losing yourself every time, the Blood War is most likely baby stuff.
 

CryptRat

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I really don't know how to interpret this very ending, especially since I don't remember if it's stated if he will reincarnate again, is now a god or a third option or if it's open to interpretation so maybe what I'm going to say is total nonsense, but anyway :
- If he will reincarnate again then it could mean than he can henceforth, now that he's reconciled with himself, fullfil its duty as a fighter during his further lives, which will get him even closer to escape reincarnation and become a god.
- If he's a god then endless fighting against demons is the duty of gods.
Note that I know nothing apart what's in the game regarding planes, I'm talking only under the prism of hinduism, which I'm really not an expert at either.

EDIT : I understand how TNO reincarnating again makes little sense since escaping reincarnation is the aim of the game, the thing is that it's his own curse and not everyone's and so in the world of the game alternatives to "be a god or reincarnate" exist while normally there's no alternative. Reincarnation is a curse because if you reincarnate it means you're not an absolute being. Whether it applies to TNO may be an unanswered issue, if it doesn't apply then yes it's possible that he is not a god (and lost his powers?) and won't reincarnate either but in theory the only way to escape reincarnation is to become a god. :?

I never liked to think too much about the finality of the ending since "objectively" damned means very little in a Planescape setting, kinda undermines it a bit.
Totally agree, an ending which is open to interpretaion or which I simply don't understand is fine, that's pretty cool in fact.
 
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Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Kyl Von Kull, ok, you convinced me, but only if we assume that the conclusion that TNO comes to is what is ultimately important. I.e. he is objectively damned, but he makes his damnation bearable or even pleasurable. My whole problem is the entire rest of the game, where the hanging shadow of that damnation is hounding and inescapable, but I guess that's the point.

Wait, what? You’re convinced!?

:what:


:shredder:

:despair:

Now what the fuck am I going to do with my weekend?
 

Forest Dweller

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The Nameless One isn't damned eternally at the end of PST. There's a chance for him to come back to the planes at some point, but he has to atone first. I thought the game made this pretty clear.
 

Sykar

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Maybe PS:T veers a little too close to existentialism for some people, but I always thought this was one of the best things about it.

What do you mean by "veers a little too close to existentialism"? In what way? What kind of existentialism? I don't see any kind of existential conclusion in PS:T, maybe except willing yourself out of existence, quite the contrary, TNO mostly can't escape from the powers of the universe, so they hang like an objective sword of Damocles over him.

What he cannot escape from are the consequences of his own actions. The player gets a small glimpse of what he did during the game and it was not pretty especially what he did to Ignus and Dakkon was utterly disgusting.
 

Neanderthal

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Plus for every death hes suffered and awoke from hes killed an innocent and born an undead shadow, lot o murders over the centuries of his existence.

Oh if you kill yourself or will yourself out of existence you get the "bad" ending, and don't get the ending cinematic where you join the battle raging in the shadow of Khin Oin in the Grey Wastes.
 
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The game implied it was a bad ending, but, that would probably be the fate he would choose when he splitted himself, had he known what what would happen later.
 

Parabalus

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The Nameless One isn't damned eternally at the end of PST. There's a chance for him to come back to the planes at some point, but he has to atone first. I thought the game made this pretty clear.

Yes, but atone to whom? Who/what is powerful enough to hold you accountable but basic enough to care?

It's never mentioned what exactly compells you/first incarn. into damnation, only vaguely the why of it. If it's not an external force, then the first pursued immortality because he wants to repent and willed the "prison" after death himself.
If he holds himself accountable, he had believed himself into damnnation, you should/could know better than that after TTO and could extricate yourself. If you can escape and don't want to, your morality is aligned with the firsts (or it got overwritten to his). Newer games would probably have branches here.

I always considered the ending pretty final, in the sense that the setting shouldn't undermine the story.
 

Luckmann

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Do you guys think TNO gets "depowered" when he gets blasted down into the abyss?

I always thought picking up a random mace in the ending cinematic sort of implies it, but I'm not sure by what mechanism that would happen. Presumably he has a side in the Blood War, so weakening their soldier seems counterproductive, unless pure torture is the point, but that's not the vibe I got from the cinemtic. OTOH if not, it's doubtful you couldn't get out.

I never liked to think too much about the finality of the ending since "objectively" damned means very little in a Planescape setting, kinda undermines it a bit.
No, I never got the vibe that he was depowered, and there also wouldn't a reason for it. As per the cosmology, either he's not technically part of the wheel and just went there, or he's dead and became a petitioner in relation to his power - which, as we know, was completely and utterly insane, given the collective life-experience of his incarnations.

So no, there's really no reason to think that TNO did anything but tear complete and utter ass with that mace once he got into the blood war, as part of his penance.
The Nameless One isn't damned eternally at the end of PST. There's a chance for him to come back to the planes at some point, but he has to atone first. I thought the game made this pretty clear.

Yes, but atone to whom? Who/what is powerful enough to hold you accountable but basic enough to care?

It's never mentioned what exactly compells you/first incarn. into damnation, only vaguely the why of it. If it's not an external force, then the first pursued immortality because he wants to repent and willed the "prison" after death himself.
If he holds himself accountable, he had believed himself into damnnation, you should/could know better than that after TTO and could extricate yourself. If you can escape and don't want to, your morality is aligned with the firsts (or it got overwritten to his). Newer games would probably have branches here.

I always considered the ending pretty final, in the sense that the setting shouldn't undermine the story.
Accountable to the planes. Or at least that's how I've always considered it. For what was likely thousands of years, he upset the order of the multiverse. His penance is very much self-imposed, however, because he wasn't (and likely couldn't be) the servant of any god(s). He was a living sin against existence.
 

ga♥

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Became a petioner in relation to his power..?
He was sent to the lower planes for his deeds (and yes I believe in the end he died). The first incarnation actions were enough for him to go there in the first place hence he tried to find a way for immortality, it really doesn't matter if there were "good" incarnations to balance things out. I don't think it works like karma.

IIRC all petioners lose the memories of when they were alive too. So goodbye 10000 years of experience (so yes to being depowered).
 

Luckmann

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Became a petioner in relation to his power..?
When people die, they should be sent to a plane relating to their worship or alignment, where they become petitioners. Exactly what this means depends on the plane, meaning that in some cases, you end up some nobody in a grueling existence on some blasted plains, forever, whereas if you're a tremendously powerful servant of the high heavens, you become an angel. In the case of evil servants, you can become one of those shitty lower-level worm-daemons, or you're just sent into the meat-grinder that is the blood war. Eventually, whether you're ground down to dust and "die" again or if you're some kind of semi-eternal, you'll become part of the very plane of existence you're on, and eventually be reborn - either as part of that plane, or (partially) into a new being on the prime material (or it's variations).

My point being that whether TNO died or not is irrelevant in this regard; he'd still be supremely powerful. You don't just lose your essence when you die in this cosmology.

The easiest way to think of it is this; the mechanical Experience Points represents the narrative strength of your soul. You accumulate XP because you are accumulating power (part of which is just simple "life experience", you live, you affect your world, etc.) and sometimes this is expended in some ways (this is the basis for the XP cost of magic items in D&D; when you're creating a magic scroll, you're quite literally pouring your soul into it in order for it to become magic). This power isn't lost when you die - you take that shit with you, often to the benefit of whatever plane you go to, since eventually, the entirety of your being (your soul and it's power) becomes part of that plane.

And TNO? He's racked up quite a lot of experience. Not just life experience, either, but literally pumped up his soul by flat-out murdering entire planes of existence worth of people. This also includes all the people that died when he died, because every time that fucker died, someone was murdered in his place. There's an accounting department somewhere in the planes that keeps wondering why petitioners are being sent to the wrong places as if some divine bureaucracy is cooking the books.

Edit:
IIRC all petioners lose the memories of when they were alive too. So goodbye 10000 years of experience (so yes to being depowered).
I didn't see your edit before I posted, and I'm not sure about whether someone loses their memory when they become a petitioner or not (although that would make perfect sense).

However, your memories are not your experience, it's just part of it. In the cosmology, narrative relating to mechanics, it is entirely possible to be an amnesiac with massive XP. TNO didn't just lose his memory when he died, or - possibly - he simply had no idea of how powerful he truly was, hence limiting his ability. It is likely mostly a minor narrative/mechanical discrepancy, however, which are common in these games.

Edit 2: Also, it does work a bit like karma, but remember that just for him to stay alive, for every incarnation, someone had to die due to his actions. There's simply no way even his good-est incarnations could ever make up for that. Not in a million years. TNO was always going to the lower planes, even if we ignore the sin of the original incarnation, whatever it was. His immortality just arguably made things infinitely (in a near-literal sense) worse.
 
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ga♥

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I strongly condemn the association of XP points to strenght of soul as an heresy.

Also, "In Planescape a petitioner loses all knowledge of their previous life. They are also unable to advance beyond the zeroth or first level of experience."

So, if we assume he died, he became a level 0/1 char.

If we don't assume that, and that he went there voluntarily... but why would we assume this? He got his mortality back. He's just a regular human by the end.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I love that this RPG game has a GUI interface and also features ATM machines to go along with the XP points.
 

ga♥

Arcane
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I agree btw on the discrepancies of the setting. While petitioners are limited to being lvl1 chars, this doesn't explain the hierarchy and social mobility of, let's say, Baatazeu. Theorically every Pit Fiend was a Lemure once (maybe someone with better knowledge of the setting can explain?).

Still, since it clearly says you forget all knowledge and you are stuck to lvl1, I think you are wrong Luckmann.


EDIT: allright, in "On Hallowed Ground" by Colin (McComb), it is explained that a Petitioner can be promoted (page 33).
 
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I know nothing about what you are talking about, apart that there is a war going on for who knows which reason.

> Let's just say that, for me, Nameless one didn't lose his memory, gained back his name and he is a being able to turn the tides of the war. For me him getting the weapon while looking at the battlefield means simbolically that he is ready to face his penance, instead of escaping it.

> The "what can change the nature of a man" dialogue line pronounced by Ravel in the ending video can be heard only if nameless one turned good and actually changed his nature for real.

> The dialogue between his mortality and him leaves me conflicted. Because his mortality tells him that he hates him, but I never understood if in that universe what the mortality says goes way beyond mere words.

> Actually, I've got another question: I never understood if the mortality is supposed to have the memories of your prior incarnations or not. Seeing your split parts inside the Fortress makes me think that the answer is no\not totally?

> The mortality was able to face Ravel and actually dispose her. It means that he is strong, or could have it been just a clash where he couldn't lose, given that it seems like he can't be killed and can only just "fade"?

> Did the mortality know about the prior incarnations inside the fortress? And why they were here from beginning? Were they 'merely' repressed memories part of him?
 
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It doesn't make sense that the Blood War can be escapable by TNO. If that was the case then why pursue immortality? Just die for realz and get out because you are at least a demigod in power level. So presumably either TNO gets heavily depowered in the process (to the point he'd have no advantage over any random damned soul) or there is some unescapable force (combined power of all gods in existence I'd expect) binding him to the Lower Planes.

I expect TNO is just straight up bound there by the gods since otherwise TNO would have the resources and foresight to simply recruit an army (loyal followers + real literal army) to come rescue him as soon as he'd been sent there. After all we see people Demons happily recruiting for the Blood War in PS:T, it'd be a mighty big loophole if you could get away with the greatest sin possible that doomed the multiverse or w/e just because someone from the higher planes wanted to break you out.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Being able to escape misses the point and it's bad storytelling. Death-as-a-revolving-door, or any temporary finality, isn't very compelling and you lose much of the tension and drive in a story. If the intention was indeed a Sisyphusian acceptance, then it will trivialize that as well.
 

ga♥

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I love that this RPG game has a GUI interface and also features ATM machines to go along with the XP points.

I always assumed XP stood for eXPerience (like you know, Windows XP), and not experience points, which would be XPP. hmm?
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
It stands for EXperience Points, ex and x are the same phonetically in this context, that's why it isn't EP. Exactly like how EXplore, EXpand, EXploit, EXterminate is 4X and not 4E. At least that's how I rationalize it, it might be a rule of cool thing because X allegedly sounds COOL and MANLY while E allegedly sounds feminine and flaccid. Either way, XP is experience points, I've never heard or read anyone referring to them as XP points.
 

ga♥

Arcane
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It stands for EXperience Points, ex and x are the same phonetically in this context, that's why it isn't EP. Exactly like how EXplore, EXpand, EXploit, EXterminate is 4X and not 4E. At least that's how I rationalize it, it might be a rule of cool thing because X allegedly sounds COOL and MANLY while E allegedly sounds feminine and flaccid. Either way, XP is experience points, I've never heard or read anyone referring to them as XP points.

ty you very much for the explanation.
 

Parabalus

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Accountable to the planes. Or at least that's how I've always considered it. For what was likely thousands of years, he upset the order of the multiverse. His penance is very much self-imposed, however, because he wasn't (and likely couldn't be) the servant of any god(s). He was a living sin against existence.

Aren't the bolded points contradictory?

What I got from your informative larger post is that, in Planescape, it's the the setting itself [=collective "sentient mortal" belief?] that allocates "evil" mortals to the Lower Planes after death. This external force is presumably strong enough to hold TNO in the Blood War regardless of his godlike power level (imprisoned gods are a dime a dozen?).

This makes sense to me and is how I always interpreted the ending, but it would mean that his penance is in no way self-imposed, but forced.
 

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