Puzzles

[JarlFrank]

Do you like them in RPGs? Yes or no, and why?

Types of puzzles:
Switch a bunch of levers in a random pattern and hope you get lucky. This type is shit and shouldn't even be called puzzle because it doesn't require logic, just trying out all possible combinations until you find the right one. Just tedious and frustrating once there are 5 or more levers involved.

Riddles, as in: some ancient guardian asking you some Sphinx-like question.
WHAT HAS FOUR LEGS IN THE MORNING TWO LEGS AT MIDDAY AND THREE LEGS IN THE EVENING?
Answer: A FTM TRANNY
Stuff like that. They can be good if they're good questions and haven't been used 50000 times already.

Now, the ones I'd like to see more in RPGs are adventure game puzzles that require you to combine items in order to eliminate/cross obstacles or create a new item that can be useful, etc etc. Put rat in cooking pot to get cook fired, things like that. Can work really well in RPGs.

Thoughts?

 

[denizsi]

Greatest puzzles are the adventures themselves where you'd need to work out political intrigues and make sense of who does what and to what end and try to gain a perspective to decide what you want to do about it.

Quests similar to Sherlock Holmes adventures with several perspectives would be the ultimate puzzles for me.

But of course, you probably mean "local" and small-time puzzles as in your example. I like puzzles in RPGs when they aren't retarded but I'd like them better if character skills somehow made an impact. Perhaps puzzles could have an intelligence or a perception limit to determine whether you could find/receive the clues to solve them at all. That would work out nicely with puzzles of Riven's (sequel to Myst) grade, I think.

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

I would agree that levers as puzzles are just horrible, at least the way they are implemented in say Gothic 2 in the end temple, just have to keep trying until you get the correct combination. However if you are given some sort of visual cue when push a lever, say pulling a lever makes the water in a system of pipes run differently. And say there is a barrel which can gather water and when full it acts like a counter weight that opens a door. That would work, since one can apply logic on it, and not just dumb brute force.

Riddles, I don't have much experience on these, however I liked your Riddle example. Very codexian. :D

Another good type of good puzzles are the type similar to those in adventure games. Say for example the way you gain entrance to Mariposa in Fallout, with the combination of the iron pipe, the wagon and the dynamite. For this to work however you require some sort of either commentary from the PC/a NPC/narrator. Or some sort of text description when one examines the objects. The main problem here I guess is if your like me you tend to hold on to just about every item that you get your hands on, just in case it might come in hand later. Which can be quite annoying with a limited inventory. Another problem is to give enough "hints" so that your not required to brute force these either.

 

[Archibald]

YES. I`ll give an example of my perfect puzzle.

Dracula:Origins. Yes, mediocre adventure at best but its first puzzle is one of my favorites ever.

Basically you get a map of the city, bunch of newspeapers with reports on assaults and witnesses. What you have to do? Place attacks on the map and draw lines at the directions that attacker was seen getting away. In the end you`d get small area where all lines crossed. Yes, it was simplistic and easy(first puzzle in the game ffs) but i`d like to have more of this.

I`m not sure now but i believe some older rpgs had similar side quests.

 

[soggie]

The best puzzles are those that you don't realize is one until somebody in the codex uses it as an analogy for their own game's quest design.

I don't like lever puzzles, or any derivative that involves activating/deactivating a series of switches, hoping to figure out the correct combination in order to move on. Don't get me wrong - I love these mensa shit for what they are, but in an RPG where I'm supposed to role play my character and not the other way around, I don't see why they need to belong there.

Puzzles that involves a fair bit of detective work like the New Reno murder case would be great, especially if by the end of the day you won't get clear answers and have to use logical deductions to get to the conclusion.

 

[Topher]

That Dracula puzzle sounds cool.

Anyway, I like puzzles that require an item so long as the puzzles is self-contained i.e. the item isn't across the game world. I don't like carrying junk around because I'm not sure if I'll need it for some obscure door somewhere or something. Either make it clear that I'll need it or put it in the vicinity of the puzzle.

 

[soggie]

That Dracula puzzle sounds cool.

Anyway, I like puzzles that require an item so long as the puzzles is self-contained i.e. the item isn't across the game world. I don't like carrying junk around because I'm not sure if I'll need it for some obscure door somewhere or something. Either make it clear that I'll need it or put it in the vicinity of the puzzle.

I like that too. In fact, why not take it to a whole new scale? Imagine an city built on top of an ancient ruins. You get quests in four different buildings, and somehow the premise of each quest seem to have something in common that can be easily overlooked. However, as you explore the city further, you start to gather clues that there's an ancient vault of awesomeness somewhere in the city, and that the only clue you had was something obscure like "the crossroads where the four elements meet". Then by chance you pull up the minimap and realize that the four quests that you performed each represented an element, and when you connect each location to another you'll find that at the exact intersection of the four buildings is a hidden switch otherwise impossible to find without a fair bit of pixel hunting.

 

[Archibald]

Then by chance you pull up the minimap and realize that the four quests that you performed each represented an element, and when you connect each location to another you'll find that at the exact intersection of the four buildings is a hidden switch otherwise impossible to find without a fair bit of pixel hunting.

Or maxed out perception stat.

 

[Phelot]

Most puzzles I could do without. I like them in adventure games, but I'm not really looking for them in RPGs. I don't particularly mind riddles and item manipulation puzzles. I liked some of the puzzles in Durlag's Tower for example.

 

[soggie]

Or maxed out perception stat.

Which would then completely negate the entire point of having puzzles in the first place.

 

[JarlFrank]

As would being able to find it by random pixel hunting?

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

Considering the Player skill vs Character skill/stats part, one could solve it with say written descriptions from item inspection where a higher perception/intelligence score give you more hints on what is needed. For example with maximum int/per one would pretty much get the answer straight from the description, thus making the answer easy to find and obvious. On the opposite you would have a retarded character who would get no hints at all from this. Thus the player would require to brute force the puzzle, thus finding himself in the players character's situation.
While not entirely true, nor perfect it does approach that goal fairly good I suspect.

 

[Archibald]

Or maxed out perception stat.

Which would then completely negate the entire point of having puzzles in the first place.

If game is made in such way that 9/10 of players wouldn`t get max perception stat then i don`t see any problems with that. I`m not a fan of games where you can max out everything with one character.

 

[denizsi]

Or maxed out perception stat.

Which would then completely negate the entire point of having puzzles in the first place.

No.

 

[asper]

Pressure-plate puzzles, "pull levers in correct order" puzzles, moving pieces of floor
that change your direction of walking without you noticing it (EOB)...

Just fill up your game with crap like this; it will be hilarious :D

 

[sportforredneck]

I like the idea of defeating a boss being like a puzzle.

 

[soggie]

Pressure-plate puzzles, "pull levers in correct order" puzzles, moving pieces of floor
that change your direction of walking without you noticing it (EOB)...

Just fill up your game with crap like this; it will be hilarious :D

... and watch the ragequit rate skyrocket through the stratosphere.

 

[Archibald]

I like the idea of defeating a boss being like a puzzle.

I agree. Bosses usually are either retarded strong so you have to grind or stupid easy. Bringing them outside levels-stats-weapons-bullshit system might be a good thing.

 

[soggie]

I like the idea of defeating a boss being like a puzzle.

I agree. Bosses usually are either retarded strong so you have to grind or stupid easy. Bringing them outside levels-stats-weapons-bullshit system might be a good thing.

Like the clackety multiheaded penis monster in HL?

 

[Archibald]

multiheaded penis is always a good thing.