Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[ERYFKRAD]

What VTmB needs is more content.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Obviously, one of you two must be wrong.

 

[Wesp5]

I like to play sneaky types but have access to some good dialogue and basically enjoy the game... you never get to replay your first playthrough so I want some skills to get a hang on how the game plays

I played a Toreador myself. Go for high Persuasion for dialogues and high Firearms and Celerity for fights. Lockpicking and Hacking on the side can't hurt...

 

[Lazing Dirk]

Picked this up again after hearing the Hollywood theme and getting the itch. I never did a sewer rat playthrough, so I'm doing one of those. What a shithole these gimps live in. On the plus side, I'm finding quests I've never done before despite at least 4 full playthroughs of the game, though it's possible they were cut content reintroduced in later updates of the unofficial patch. Seems to work fine at full res on Win7 64, aside from having to camera_kill at one point when a script broke or some shit (when telling the Haunted LA guy it was all a joke and getting him to go back).

 

[Wesp5]

Wesp5, do you think it's possible to port the game to the latest version of Source?

No. There was a guy trying to port Bloodlines to the Alien Swarm engine and right a the start of it, at the time copyright owner, CCP stopped the project with a C&D letter. I think he contacted Paradox after they bought the IP, but nothing ever came out of it. Besides the legal issues I doubt that any fan could do something like this in a reasonable time. I'm still patching the game after 12 years and there are things we just can't fix...

 

[Zombra]

I never did a sewer rat playthrough, so I'm doing one of those.

Anyone want to comment about Nosferatu playthroughs? I wanted to try one but it seemed like it was all about going through the sewers instead of the streets, which a) takes longer and b) is boring. Lost interest very quickly. Is it fun?

 

[ghostdog]

I never did a sewer rat playthrough, so I'm doing one of those.

Anyone want to comment about Nosferatu playthroughs? I wanted to try one but it seemed like it was all about going through the sewers instead of the streets, which a) takes longer and b) is boring. Lost interest very quickly. Is it fun?

They are pretty cool. You don't have to use always the sewers, you can use the streets. Just avoid getting very close to people. But even if one guy gets scared it's not a masquerade violation, you must upset 2 or 3 people for that to happen, so you can just hide for a bit and everything is OK. Ah, you also get a warning sign when someone looks your way in the street.

Many Vamps will treat you with disgust, but you'll receive almost all possible quests anyway and you'll get some amusingly snarky dialog as a Nos. Nosferatu have some nice clan-specific solutions in certain quests and get their own haven. Obviously you can't use seduction, but with persuasion and intimidate you can do wanders in you social situations and you can also get a good blood feeding from rats. With obfuscate and potence you can both be very stealthy and kick ass. I definitely recommend a Nos for a subsequent playthrough.

 

[Old One]

...it sounds like Obfuscate and Celerity are two of the skills I will pick to start off

Just to be clear, you don't actually pick the skills in Bloodlines. Each clan has three disciplines associated with it. None of the clans have both Celerity and Obfuscate, primarily because that would be super-easy-instant-win mode.

Spoiler

You can add disciples to the clans by editing one of the data files. If you've played Bloodlines to death already, this can be pretty fun. For example, you can combine Obfuscate with Thaumaturgy and cast lethal blood magic in public without violating the Masquerade.

 

[Invictus]

...it sounds like Obfuscate and Celerity are two of the skills I will pick to start off

Just to be clear, you don't actually pick the skills in Bloodlines. Each clan has three disciplines associated with it. None of the clans have both Celerity and Obfuscate, primarily because that would be super-easy-instant-win mode.

Spoiler

You can add disciples to the clans by editing one of the data files. If you've played Bloodlines to death already, this can be pretty fun. For example, you can combine Obfuscate with Thaumaturgy and cast lethal blood magic in public without violating the Masquerade.

Thanks Old One yeah I understand they are clan specific but I liked those to start off since I understand the clear advantages of them
I will probably pick Wesp's suggestion and go Toreador for my first playthrough... hehe I loathed the Anne Rice pretty boy vampire archetype but seeing that guy with his 90 red shirt just makes me grin

 

[Lacrymas]

That stereotype has been a stereotype way before Anne Rice, the first one being Lord Ruthven from The Vampyre by John Polidori, Lord Byron's doctor, written in 1819. He is depicted as seductive and sexual, easily charming women and then eating them. I wouldn't say he is a pretty boy, but it depends on what you mean by that. I suppose the modern stereotype is that they are "good" and can relate to mortals, even having unsimulated relationships with them. That's absurd obviously, which is why WoD's depiction of vampires is better and more genuine, as much as such a thing can be considered "genuine", anyway. With that said, I'm still waiting for more games set in WoD.

 

[Invictus]

That stereotype has been a stereotype way before Anne Rice, the first one being Lord Ruthven from The Vampyre by John Polidori, Lord Byron's doctor, written in 1819. He is depicted as seductive and sexual, easily charming women and then eating them. I wouldn't say he is a pretty boy, but it depends on what you mean by that. I suppose the modern stereotype is that they are "good" and can relate to mortals, even having unsimulated relationships with them. That's absurd obviously, which is why WoD's depiction of vampires is better and more genuine, as much as such a thing can be considered "genuine", anyway. With that said, I'm still waiting for more games set in WoD.

What I meant is that Vampires before Anne Rice were inhuman creatures to be feared because they seemed to think of humans as cattle to feed on and were perfectly happy in their undeath but after Lestat and all those "oh the sorrow of everlasting life" pretty boys (not to even acknowledge the New Moon abominations) they became sexy and fashionable
I prefer the darker clans like Bruja or Nosferatu from a lore perspective
My favorite RPG setting ever is Ravenloft and that kind of gothic fantasy is more akin to Vampire than to the modern kitchchy "Team Edward" bullshit

 

[Latelistener]

Wesp5, do you think it's possible to port the game to the latest version of Source?

No. There was a guy trying to port Bloodlines to the Alien Swarm engine and right a the start of it, at the time copyright owner, CDC stopped the project with a C&D letter. I think he contacted Paradox after they bought the IP, but nothing ever came out of it. Besides the legal issues I doubt that any fan could do something like this in a reasonable time. I'm still patching the game after 12 years and there are things we just can't fix...

I remember they were trying to make something for years with Source, but in the end, they announced Project Vaulderie and wanted to transit the assets to the Unity engine. They also started asking for donations, and that's when (and why) CCP came knocking.

 

[laclongquan]

Blame Anne Rice for that. Those New Moon is just Anne Rice mark 2.

Anyway, IF EVER I choose to do a Nosferatu run, I would change a few lines of command so that the game use the body model of something nice, not Nos models. We would spend too much time running through the sewer alone with that butt on the screen, no reason for it to be an ugly one.

 

[ghostdog]

It would be pointless to use another model, the whole deal with the nos is the that you look monstrous and ugly.
There are some better looking skins, so that you don't have to walk around in bondage gear. I think I combined this one with this one the last time I played a Nos.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Blame Anne Rice for that. Those New Moon is just Anne Rice mark 2.

Anyway, IF EVER I choose to do a Nosferatu run, I would change a few lines of command so that the game use the body model of something nice, not Nos models. We would spend too much time running through the sewer alone with that butt on the screen, no reason for it to be an ugly one.

Even that is sort of 'later Anne Rice'. Actually, come to think of it, it's not any one individual piece of Anne Rice, but her effect on the mythos as a whole.

Louis is "woe is me for being a vampire", but that's also because in "Interview with a vampire", vampires are evil predators who eat mortals like cattle. She doesn't give him the 'easy out' of being able to drink blood without killing people, and consequently his immortality is pretty shit - it's always a matter of time before he's going to be fleeing an angry torch-bearing mob, his only choices are to kill innocents or die himself, and he can't commit to either of them so he's in a sort of half-existence. But it's presented as being entirely a matter of Louis' own weakness (he starts the book wanting to kill himself but lacking the resolve with which to do so, and arguably he ends the book the same way). Interview isn't exactly great fiction, but it's more nuanced than her later work - there's a recurring reminder that, unlike LeStat, Louis did have a choice about whether to become a vampire in the first place, and he made the choice knowing what it entailed. He's a mopey over-privileged dickhead because that's what he was all along.

That, in itself, is pretty far from New Moon - the reader is supposed to like Edward, whilst Louis is sympathetic but always weak and the author of his own misery because he can neither 'do the right thing' and kill himself, nor accept being a predator...not terribly far from how he's first introduced, moping to all who must hear (because he's a wealthy aristocrat with everything laid out for him) about how much he wants to kill himself because his wife died in childbirth, while deliberately slumming it in dens of poverty/disease, completely oblivious to how self-centred and obnoxious he's being by going all "woe is me" when half the people around him are probably going to die of cholera. That's what prompts Lestat to turn him in the first place - 'oh, you want to die you poor poor thing. Ok, I'm happy to oblige, I can drain you and throw your body into the ocean...still want to die? Oh, faced with the reality of dying you suddenly aren't so sure. Well how about I give you lots of life...but I'll be straight with you, no sunlight, you're going to be a predator etc etc....but that's fine, I mean, you don't want to live anyway, right? I'm only going to go through with this if you want it, otherwise I'll leave you half-turned and you'll be dead in a few minutes, won't even hurt...wait what's that? You want me to go through with it? You don't want to die? Well how about you act on that insight, you ungrateful prick'.

It's not the best written of books, but at least the character perspective is right - it's ultimately pretty damning of Louis; he isn't supposed to be wholly unsympathetic, but that side of him, the whole "woe is me" schtick is presented as entirely Louis' own fault. It's mirrored in how Louis in the 20th century is still trying to talk and act like a European aristocrat, whereas Lestat wakes up, takes a look around, and throws himself into 20th century living.

Once Lestat takes over main character duties in the series, the whole 'woe is me for being a vampire' thing goes out the window. He loves being a vampire, he's got mind-reading powers that Louis lacks, so he can choose to kill only murderers and people who piss him off and thoroughly enjoys it.

The problem with Rice is that (a) in later books she doesn't commit to the dichotomy, and her characters begin to take on the worst aspects of both, and (not unrelated) (b) the overall effect upon vampire mythos was to combine Louis' "woe is me" with Lestat's "vampire as superhero rockstar".

I'm not defending Rice's writing, there's plenty of cringe material in there. In particular, she made the very common mistake of taking a popular character who should only ever be used in small doses and then making him the lead. Lestat works well in Interview because he reflects what's wrong with Louis' perspective - it takes the typical 'villain' role and has him win the moral argument. It's not a character that you should give a fully fleshed out story and psychology, as that just dilutes his effectiveness.

But it's a bit much to blame Edward on her, as opposed to her readership. You can't get much further from Edward/New Moon then by having a first book with the central theme of "no, fuck YOU Mr Woe-is-Me, not my fault that you're too weak to either appreciate the life you've got, or act on your convictions and change it", and then a follow up book where the main character is "hell yeah, being a vampire is awesome! I'm going start a glam-metal band and go on tour!"

 

[ghostdog]

Eh, Lestat was the protagonist of the first novel, wasn't he?

Anyway, VtM obviously has lifted a lot from Rice's novels, the structure of the vampire society, their powers, their power struggles. The problem is that Rice's stuff can be so fucking sensationalist, it's borderline erotic novels for the repressed housewife, albeit with a perverse twist. I mean from the get go you have a shit ton of gay, incest and even pederastic undertones, along with the plethora of doomed and passionate straight romances that last through the centuries.

Well at least she doesn't write explicit erotic scenes (at least from what I remember) like Richard K. Morgan, that dude can be very cringe-worthy at times.

 

[Jason Liang]

I remember the first time I watched Interview with a Vampire, in a movie theater with my mother, when they were in Paris and they meet the Parisian coven, I had the epiphany- holy fuck that's a Toreador using celerity. And the crazy vampire oracle bitch, she's a Malkavian. VtM is a complete rip-off of Anne Rice. The only thing original White Wolf added was the Tremere, because Justin "RPGs need to have a wizard class" Achilli.

This is coming from someone who loved White Wolf (before they got sold to Eve) and interned for them a few years later. I also love Anne Rice too, for Queen of the Damned and The Witching Hour.

EDIT: Ravenloft was a gateway for me too. I read Lloyd Alexander in 3rd grade -> Lone Wolf books in 4th grade -> Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends in 5th grade, loved Lord Soth, followed him to Ravenloft, started reading the Ravenloft novels -> Vampire fiction in general -> Interview With a Vampire -> Queen of the Damned.

Probably because after Dragonlance I tried but couldn't get into Lord of the Rings, kept falling asleep on the same page/ paragraph.

I got into White Wolf seperately from reading, strangely enough. Magic the Gathering -> Jyhad, and then the Vampire Kindred: the Embraced tv show came out about the same year. And also since B. Dalton and Waldenbooks shelved the V:tM splat books next to the 2E PHB and the FASA Shadowrun/ Battletech rulebooks. White Wolf did great brand promotion those years.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Eh, Lestat was the protagonist of the first novel, wasn't he?

Anyway, VtM obviously has lifted a lot from Rice's novels, the structure of the vampire society, their powers, their power struggles. The problem is that Rice's stuff can be so fucking sensationalist, it's borderline erotic novels for the repressed housewife, albeit with a perverse twist. I mean from the get go you have a shit ton of gay, incest and even pederastic undertones, along with the plethora of doomed and passionate straight romances that last through the centuries.

Well at least she doesn't write explicit erotic scenes (at least from what I remember) like Richard K. Morgan, that dude can be very cringe-worthy at times.

Yeah, that's what I meant by the 'cringeworthy' elements. I'm not saying Rice is good - there's many degrees of godawful before you get to Twilight, and also that it's a different kind of bad in any event.

Re Lestat as protagonist - not unless there's a book before Interview that I've had the fortune of not reading? If you started with "The vampire, Lestat", then in fairness you missed her best book.

 

[ghostdog]

Re Lestat as protagonist - not unless there's a book before Interview that I've had the fortune of not reading? If you started with "The vampire, Lestat", then in fairness you missed her best book.

Ah, you're right. Somehow I thought that Interview was her second book.

 

[Jason Liang]

Interview with a Vampire is very different from her other books- it's much leaner, for one thing. Actually of the first 3 vampire books, The Vampire Lestat is probably my least favorite. I would never reread that, but I've read Inteview twice and Queen of the Damned five times. And Witching Hour I've read four times and listened through on audiobook like a dozen times.

Seriously, how can you compare Anne Rice/ V: tM to Twilight? That's like... comparing Indiana Jones to Hunger Games, or something. GTFO.

 

[Wesp5]

I believe White Wolf took the best things from several vampire myths and brought them together to represent their clans. As discussed Toreador and maybe Malkavians are from Rice. Nosferatu are from the old Nosferatu movie. Brujah at least as shown in Bloodlines always remind me of Blade. Ventrue might be a represenation of Stokers Count Dracula although I think the PnP game makes him Old Clan Tzimisce which I know little about. He could also transform himself into a wolf, like Gangrel in the WoD can...

 

[Jason Liang]

I believe White Wolf took the best things from several vampire myths and brought them together to represent their clans. As discussed Toreador and maybe Malkavians are from Rice. Nosferatu are from the old Nosferatu movie. Brujah at least as shown in Bloodlines always remind me of Blade. Ventrue might be a represenation of Stokers Count Dracula although I think the PnP game makes him Old Clan Tzimisce which I know little about. He could also transform himself into a wolf, like Gangrel can...

The Old Clan Tzimisce's discipline set (Auspex, Animalism, Dominate) come directly from Bram Stoker's Dracula- he has telepathy (Auspex), mind control/ rape (Dominate) and power over wolves and bats (Animalism). The central concept of the Tzimisce is that they are the masters of the land, so they have Dominate to control the Kine and Animalism to control the wild animals. Of course, he also has a bit of Potence and Fortitude as well...

Brujah and Tremere were added by Achilli since he thought the game was missing a fighter class and a mage class.

 

[Old One]

As long as they don't start dating high-school girls. If that happens, I'm out.

 

[Storyfag]

Of course, he also has a bit of Potence and Fortitude as well...

"A bit"? lol. Standing in the mist-obscured sun of London is like Fortitude 6.

 

[Old One]

In browsing the data files for Bloodlines, I notice everyone dislikes the Tremere.

If you mean the reactions stats in the npctemplates by this, I don't think they were ever implemented. Normally this is done in the dialogues themselves by checking for clan and or Humanity level. As for the Tourette camera issue, do you have a save nearby to retry and post what line is spoken when the slow pan happens? Maybe I can look into this then...

I've been experimenting with the Voerman sisters situation, and I must say I've found some interesting things I never noticed before. Therese in particular, but both of them to an extent, can react in extremely different ways depending on what kind of character you have. I don't know whether it's all to do with clan or not.

Spoiler

For example, I created two saves just before the final showdown. One is a Brujah female, and one is a Malkavian female. They did everything the same as far as quests and general behavior before getting to this point, and they have the same stats because I maxed them all out after the tutorial and gave them a big pool so they could buy Humanity if I wanted. Both are currently at 2 Humanity, because they've been murdering people by the dozen (but with no Masquerade Violations).

Therese reacts with overwhelming anger toward the Brujah gal. In fact, the whole episode consists of dialogue I'd never heard before, and it appears to be impossible to save both sisters. I ran through it three times using different responses, and couldn't save them both. Even with 10 Persuasion, there's no chance.

The Malkavian gal on the other hand, can easily save both sisters by picking the blue Persuasion lines in dialogue.

The most interesting thing is this: I reloaded the Brujah game, brought her up to max Humanity, tried again, and there was no change. Either it's entirely dependent on clan, or it depends on some other factor I don't understand.

FYI, both characters slashed up the paintings in Galelry Noir, but also gave the Ocean House amulet to Therese.

Neither one of these had any of the awkward camera pans I was talking about. When I get a chance I'm going to make a female Tremere save the same way, because that's where I saw it before. My male Ventrue also had one, but only one.