RPGs allowing you to invest skill points freely

[Iucounu]

Scenario: main quest sends your character visiting plot NPC, and after just a brief conversation the game suddenly gifts your character with multiple skill points, to be freely invested in any skill you like.

To me it's absurd. I can accept that your character gets better stats by doing something related to the skill, like better combat skill from actual combat, or talking shop with a sword instructor, or reading a skill book. But you shouldn't be able to increase combat skill from talking to your ex-girlfriend (unless she's a sword instructor).

Is this a normal and accepted mechanic in CRPGs? Do TTRPGs work the same, or do they hand out skill points in a more believeable manner?

 

[Butter]

Yes this is normal in CRPGs. There's nothing stopping you from investing the points into the skills you deem appropriate. Learn-by-doing is a design nightmare that usually fails.

 

[Athena]

There's no better way to suck the fun out of a game than a strong commitment to realism.

 

[octavius]

It's a game. It's an abstraction. Other games try to be more of a simulation. Both works. Play, and don't overanalyze.

 

[DaveO]

Realms of Arkania does the skill point thing, so does Might and Magic and many others. It sounds like you'd be more at home in the Elder Scrolls franchise where whatever skill you use is increased, but that way has exploits just like the point system to assign to whatever you want. Pick your poision, since immersion is not really badly broken with some sort of either point or skill-based system.

 

[motherfucker]

Learn by doing is retarded, but so is learning hacking by killing radscorpions with a plasma gun. Latter doesn't get in your way like former does however, and thus is more preferable. I personally like the hybrid approach of AoD, where combat and non-combat skills are separated, and similar skills boost each other so you're not completely fucked if you only spec one weapon and then change your mind. Learn by doing can work, too - Kenshi pulled it off, but to be fair that game's systems were built around that almost entirely.

 

[Iucounu]

It sounds like you'd be more at home in the Elder Scrolls franchise where whatever skill you use is increased, but that way has exploits just like the point system to assign to whatever you want.

Yes it does encourage grinding (like crafting ten dragon bone armor sets in Skyrim just to max out your stats), unless there's a scarcity of the resources needed to grind (unfortunately Skyrim spams dragons).

Pick your poision, since immersion is not really badly broken with some sort of either point or skill-based system.

There's a second annoyance built into the thread start scenario that I forgot to elaborate on: why are so many skill points given at once at every main quest completion? You can travel around in the game world while killing, crafting, trading and talking to sidequest NPCs, but in some games none of this rewards you as much. This encourages skipping all side content in order to level up as quickly as possible.

 

[Iucounu]

I personally like the hybrid approach of AoD, where combat and non-combat skills are separated

That sounds like a better approach. Perhaps many skill groups could be rewarded separately, depending on the type of quest you've finished, or even better depending on how you resolved a quest. For example, if a quest is about stealing a treasure from a dragon, your intelligence skill would increase if you outsmarted the dragon; your combat if you killed it; your stealth if you remained undetected. All this would still be tied to that specific quest, so it couldn't be abused for grinding.

 

[Skinwalker]

I

Scenario: main quest sends your character visiting plot NPC, and after just a brief conversation the game suddenly gifts your character with multiple skill points, to be freely invested in any skill you like.

What is the conversation isn't brief but extensive, and the game gifts you with a single skill point instead?

 

[NecroLord]

One of my main gripes with the original Elder Scrolls games...
You have to SPAM spell after spell to level your magic skills, and swing and keep on swinging to level your combat skills.

I'm more of a "gain x amount of skill points per levelup" kind of guy.

 

[Butter]

Naturally Wizardry 7 does it best. Some skills improve through use, but not all. You get skill points when you level up, but they're separated into categories and different classes get more or less depending on the category. Skills that improve through use generally improve slowly enough that the skill points you get at level-up still feel important.

 

[Skinwalker]

VTM:B has the best system. Complete quest, get XP. Killing enemies is its own reward, or hindrance (you get to decide). Stealth or diplomacy would be a non-viable option without it.

The lack of XP numbers inflation was also very satisfying. Feels good to receive 3 experience points, when every single one counts.

 

[Fink]

Is this a normal and accepted mechanic in CRPGs? Do TTRPGs work the same

Have you never played any RPGs before? It's how the vast majority of them work.

 

[Iucounu]

Is this a normal and accepted mechanic in CRPGs? Do TTRPGs work the same

Have you never played any RPGs before? It's how the vast majority of them work.

Just a few of the mainstream ones. But I'm also wondering if this mechanic is something CRPGamers actually want from their games?

 

[Iucounu]

I

Scenario: main quest sends your character visiting plot NPC, and after just a brief conversation the game suddenly gifts your character with multiple skill points, to be freely invested in any skill you like.

What is the conversation isn't brief but extensive, and the game gifts you with a single skill point instead?

Not sure if the length of the conversation matters here, but yes a single skill point might feel better than dropping a dozen at once. I would also like if that skill point was somehow associated with information you get in the conversation, in order to help immersion:

- NPC gives you a tip on how to bargain. [+1 in Speech/Negotiation category].
- NPC talks about weaknesses in enemies' fighting style [+1 in Combat/Armor category].

If the conversation just contains irrelevant information and you still get skill point(s), why bother reading it?

 

[SlightlyRadioactive]

Is this a normal and accepted mechanic in CRPGs? Do TTRPGs work the same

Have you never played any RPGs before? It's how the vast majority of them work.

Just a few of the mainstream ones. But I'm also wondering if this mechanic is something CRPGamers actually want from their games?

I'm honestly wondering how did you even get here in the first place if your knowledge about the genre is so limited.

 

[Daemongar]

What if those skill points represented where the player wanted to go, rather than what they accomplished? I go from level 1 to level 2. I put a point in lockpicking, now, next time I lockpick I am better. However, if a person didn't put that point in lockpicking, their skill wouldn't change and they wouldn't be any better. They made the choice not to apply themselves there.

I always liked Wastelands (the original) point system. Get 2 points at level up. Can only get skills at libraries. Certain skills (Doctor) require a high IQ and that first point invested in Doctor doesn't get you too far. To summarize: You gained a level, you went to the library, you invested study in a skill, now you can get better at it by using it or by further investing points in the skill on successive level ups.

 

[AfterVirtue]

You could earn points but you would need trainers to spend them; didn't Gothic do this? Or you could spend point up to a point with a threshold of "use skill" to spend them further, like you have lockpick 3, you need yo lockpick a certain number of locks to increase it, spending points; perhaps with skill synergy and the like and experience not on kills, Bloodline-like, or not only on kills? But i think that whichever method one select that as complexity will become unplayable if the game isn't created to integrate it in synergy with various layers of gameplay, all of which must be tested to assure it is fun and not an idea that seems cool on paper but boring or worst in pratice. Otherwise, better stick with simplicity.

 

[Iucounu]

Is this a normal and accepted mechanic in CRPGs? Do TTRPGs work the same

Have you never played any RPGs before? It's how the vast majority of them work.

Just a few of the mainstream ones. But I'm also wondering if this mechanic is something CRPGamers actually want from their games?

I'm honestly wondering how did you even get here in the first place if your knowledge about the genre is so limited.

To learn more. Not sure if any progress is made.

 

[Iucounu]

What if those skill points represented where the player wanted to go, rather than what they accomplished?

You mean "go" as in what the player (or character?) wants to learn? And then the player imagines that the character learns that behind the scenes, so to speak? I suppose that could work, if the skill points rewarded by the quest conversation (in the thread start) symbolize an increased willingness by the character to learn new things. Like: hero speaks to ex-girlfriend, get lots of new energy, decides to learn lockpicking and magic in his spare time.

 

[Iucounu]

You could earn points but you would need trainers to spend them; didn't Gothic do this? Or you could spend point up to a point with a threshold of "use skill" to spend them further, like you have lockpick 3, you need yo lockpick a certain number of locks to increase it, spending points; perhaps with skill synergy and the like and experience not on kills, Bloodline-like, or not only on kills? But i think that whichever method one select that as complexity will become unplayable if the game isn't created to integrate it in synergy with various layers of gameplay, all of which must be tested to assure it is fun and not an idea that seems cool on paper but boring or worst in pratice. Otherwise, better stick with simplicity.

Sounds good: character learns theory about lockpicking, which then helps him improve his lockpicking skill more during practical use.

 

[Old Hans]

Learn-by-doing is a design nightmare that usually fails.

yea it always ends up with players exploiting the system and 8 zillion youtube videos with titles like "how to max lockpicking in 30 minutes"

 

[Butter]

Learn-by-doing is a design nightmare that usually fails.

yea it always ends up with players exploiting the system and 8 zillion youtube videos with titles like "how to max lockpicking in 30 minutes"

A huge number of the skills in Skyrim have a serious design flaw that's inextricable from the learn-by-doing system. Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Alchemy, Smithing, Enchanting, Speech, Pickpocket, and Illusion all require extensive grinding/spamming in order to attain or maintain usefulness.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

A huge number of the skills in Skyrim have a serious design flaw that's inextricable from the learn-by-doing system. Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Alchemy, Smithing, Enchanting, Speech, Pickpocket, and Illusion all require extensive grinding/spamming in order to attain or maintain usefulness.

That's one of the big problems with the Elder Scrolls system. You know who does this system much better? Maxis with The Sims. One simple and should be obvious reason, too. The Sims only uses this system on skills that the Sim actually actively does and it's typically for things that are done for an extended duration. Also, not all skills are shown to the player, like dancing in Sims 3, which has noticeable improvements in the animations and anything that involves dancing, but there is no visible indicator for the skill.

The armor skills in Elder Scrolls passive in terms of player involvement and require something else to be beating on you. Alchemy and just about every crafting skill is a one and done skill. You typically make one potion at a time, craft one piece of armor at a time, or eat one herb at a time. There are exceptions, like smelting ores, but you get the idea. Raising a weapon skill by hitting enemies is very active as a player action, and something you can repeat until there are no enemies left near you.

One of the closest things The Sims does to Elder Scrolls crafting would be gardening, but the tasks like watering and weeding take a little bit and the experience for that skill is going up at a fixed rate the entire time that action is being performed. It's not a static amount for each action like Elder Scrolls crafting.

 

[blessedCoffee]

To me it's absurd. I can accept that your character gets better stats by doing something related to the skill, like better combat skill from actual combat, or talking shop with a sword instructor, or reading a skill book.

I don't see it that way, a wacky system isn't a deal breaker, to me.
Developers should be allowed to introduce unusual mechanics, trying to please eveyone by dumbing down the game mechanics, voiced game tips / text game tips during gameplay, arrows and etc, now that stinks...
If people don't want to read a manual after installing their game (and proceed to call it garbage, because they're in over their heads with that game), there's other options in this market, they can spend their time elsewhere.

The Oddity Experience System didn't ruin Underrail, as an example of a wacky system in a CRPG.