So, Bioware romances

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

RPGs fail at even conveying friendship between NPCs, so attempting to write plausible romances is putting the cart before the horse. They're silly, artificial, and pure ego stroke for lonely storyfags.

Exactly. In fact Bioware games now remind me of that Plinkett review of Attack of the Clones - love is only something like Romeo and Julia, friendships aren't shown in any way but are instead stated as facts, "We're friends", or possibly as some kissing-ass points.

 

[octavius]

Obviosuly many player like romances. Just look at all the romancing mods that exist for the Baldur's Gate games.

So who are those players? Are they girls? Emo boys?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Actually, one merit the NWN2 OC had was that the core Good party (Khelgar, Neeshka, PC) do come across as a band of bro-fisting and bickering adventurers in a lot of situations.

EDIT: Thank you very fucking much for reminding me of the BG2 romance mod scene. Now Saerileth and crew shall haunt me once more. The horror the horror the horror...

 

[Stainless Veteran]

EDIT: Thank you very fucking much for reminding me of the BG2 romance mod scene. Now Saerileth and crew shall haunt me once more. The horror the horror the horror...

Ahaha, Saerileth. I never installed that mod, but I remember reading epic thread on Gamespot, of all places, about romance mods.
For those who are interested:
Worst of the worst romance mods: part 1,part 2.

Some quotes:

I'm looking into the character mods for this, and there are quite a few of them. However, I'm not interested in any old character mods - no, I want the worst ones possible. Hell you can put romance mods in too. The Imoen one is moot, since it's not only garbage but I already have it installed but any other ones are all worthy in my eyes
So, reccomend any character/romance mods for me to pile through, especially if you've used them before. Don't hold anything back - I'm a jerk and probably deserve it so gimme your worst

Saerileth
My favourite part of this mod is that the game becomes "Saerileth's Gate; Shadows of Saerileth" with her having something to say about everything not to mention underage paladin "love at first sight" nonsense, ye old speak which like you mentioned is amazingly pretentious, incredibly creepy side quests that are added

Wait, those aren't my favourite parts, I hate each and every one of them with the fire of a thousand suns

I'll look into these other 3 ones you've mentioned, starting with this Shyhinworunto Chende one. Thanks a lot, and keep them coming if there's any more

So I can't get the Chloe mod to work properly. I get to the point where you meet her, the golem kills the shadow thieves, Chloe says her line and then she and the golem have an eternal staring contest until I grew bored and knocked the game off. I'm fairly sure something was meant to happen there, but they don't do a thing

I checked the read-me and it mentions getting the patch. thing is, for the life of me I can't find this patch. So does anyone know either A) How to sort this out B) Where to get the patch from or even C) Tell me to stop putting myself through this torture like a moron

I was aiming for my main guy getting some from the 15 year old moron Saeralieth or however you spell her stupid name with her stupid face and stupid Tyr while Imoen goes off with the raging lesbian Chloe (as far as I see, all she can do is rage and lesbian) so everyone ends up happy. Except Minsc and Jaheria, my other two party members. Hmmm, maybe all the free love will loosen them up and Minsc can loosen her up?

Ack, that's practically fanfiction. Godammit. Someone help me here before I do something drastic like tkaing my own life

3) Saeristupidjerkface is by far and away the creepiest mod - the Imoen incest mod looks like it was written by Stephen King in comparison. Paedophilia+ Ye Olde English + all the other creepy additions = I HATE THIS STUPID MOD

4) My next playthrough will be an evil Valen+Soulafein, with my guy getting his bone on with the drow. I'm bringing Viconia along because I'm sure she's going to find it absolutely hilarious, but not as much as I will. And by hilarious I mean I'm goint to laugh, proclaim to the world how stupid this is and then weep pathetically

So this morning Saerileth gave me a poem. I thought of you guys when I read it, so here - you can all suffer too!

Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love

Jesus Christ, go back to MySpace. She then followed it up with how she was "ill with rhymes" and I replied that those rhymes weren't ill, and they definitely weren't sick either. Then I realised I was talking to my computer and died a little on the inside

Anyways, Saerlieth has suddenly became a lot worse. For all the times I've played her mod I've had it on mute, until today. I now realise that Saerileth now sounds like a Russian mail order bride, and it's completely destroyed anything that resembles seriousness from the mod. It's all played completely straight, except she sounds like she was put into a large box full of airholes and some nachos while on her way to Faerum

Only had three talks with her in this short time, and they were all at once. Again, I tried to rest and she pulls me THREE TIMES IN A ROW before I was allowed to rest. The firstt ime she wanted to dance, and all the DDR I played made me wipe the floor with her. Dancing - check. Next she wanted to talk about the stars, and I sweet talked her about her eyes or something like that. Romancing - check

Next she was lying next to me, and I decided to make my move. If Chris de Burgh has taught me anything, it's that dancing and romancing always ends well. So I made a move, she got upset and broke us up, only because I wanted to hit that. Hell, she's made me suffer enough to get to that point, you can't blame a man for trying. Damn you Chris De Burgh, you failed me again you monobrowed tool!

Yep, Saerileth is part of the "No sex before marriage" lot. Welp, looks like I'm gonna have to get my rape mask on...

you want a bad mod try Nathaniel

(oooh I just lost my bastard of a boyfriend then had a bad dream about you so now Im going to lunge at you while you sleep and start kissing you silly! because Im scared I might lose you even though we arnt even dating yet and im not sure if your Gay or not!)

Nathanial is a Kensai... with 13 con

etc.
I wonder if this DarthMordechai guy is a codexer.

 

[grotsnik]

Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.

Well, those words *are* supposed to be a parody of over-the-top melodramatic romance. On this evidence, could the entire mod be an ingenious troll?

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.

Well, those words *are* supposed to be a parody of over-the-top melodramatic romance. On this evidence, could the entire mod be an ingenious troll?

I seriously doubt that that's the case. I mean, just look at their site, character pages (Loli-paladin, Necro) and their forums.

Also, pics of gay kensai romance for the lulz.

 

[grotsnik]

"Feed Nathaniel cake"? "FEED NATHANIEL CAKE"?

Okay, *this* is the problem with in-game romances, right here. Possibly the problem with humanity itself. You can't just have one character interact with another character, exchange views, create a complex and adult bond that resonates with the main story, oh, noo. You've got to have a fucking sex-doll Tamagotchi for lonely gamers.

Having the suggestion of an elderly, decrepit PC with back problems just adds to the creepy. This...this...this...

...(sigh) I'm going to go lie down for a while.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

"Feed Nathaniel cake"? "Feed Nathaniel cake"?

Okay, *this* is the problem with in-game romances, right here. Possibly the problem with humanity itself. You can't just have one character interact with another character, exchange views, create a complex and adult bond that resonates with the main story, oh, noo. You've got to have a fucking sex-doll Tamagotchi for lonely gamers.

Having the suggestion of an elderly, decrepit PC with back problems just adds to the creepy.

Even more funny that that dialog is probably not location specific. Are you in crypt? Feed Nathaniel some cake! Are you in hell? Feed Nathaniel some cake! Also, where the hell does PC get all those cakes from?

Cake is only the start of problems, and redundancy, recursion and idiocy aren't even main ones. I mean, this dialog is basically a clumsy text version of Love Plus, only with more porn and gayness. Give those modders something like HIRO III and simple and accessible modding tools for modern 3D RPG, now then we'll see true decline and horror.

Already many companies analyze what mods are popular among players, and sometimes incorporate ideas from them into their games. Imagine the quantity of roneryfags among player base, think about their reception of Truly Romantic Moments With Your LI - and you can predict the result.

 

[Vibalist]

I'm fucking speechless after reading that Nathaniel shit. I seriously, honestly cannot believe that this shit is true.



Fucking speechless.

The worst thing about it, though, is that when I read it I can't help but feel it's not really such a far cry from Bioware's romances, heck, Nathaniel is probably aimed at the same people who found Alistair cute and spend all day making threads about him on Bio's Social Network. It's *exactly* this kind of shit that makes romances so unworthwhile and stupid in games. They have nothing to do with how a romance would develop in a well written movie or book, it's just sexual images and innuendo and ego-stroking for the player. I can't believe we live in a society where this shit is considered well written, fun and deep by people. It's fucking sad.

 

[relootz]

holy crap at that guy romance, 31 dialog options! Wow, just wow!

 

[Crooked Bee]

The funny thing is, that looks like just a wild, unruly extension of your typical Biowarian formula, with most of the options apparently leading to the same result in the end.

 

[Linden]

RPGs fail at even conveying friendship between NPCs, so attempting to write plausible romances is putting the cart before the horse.

I understand your point and I partially agree with it. But still, aren't you being overly pessimistic? Surely some RPGs have managed to convey a sense of friendship between the protagonist and the NPCs - for example, what about the NPCs in Planescape Torment? What about Morte, Annah and Dakkon? And not just friendship either, but very twisted and complex relationships as well. What about Ravel and the Nameless One? Or Kreia and the Exile?

Creating a "realistic" and interesting relationship in an RPG can be done. Where most developers fail, I think, is at creating distinct NPCs with distinct personalities. (Bioware, I'm looking at you.) There is just no point in romancing (or interacting with) a character that doesn't interest you in any way. If I had to choose between romancing Ravel or Leliana, I'd go for Ravel every single time. Ugly hag or not.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Nathaniel is probably aimed at the same people who found Alistair cute and spend all day making threads about him on Bio's Social Network. It's *exactly* this kind of shit that makes romances so unworthwhile and stupid in games. They have nothing to do with how a romance would develop in a well written movie or book, it's just sexual images and innuendo and ego-stroking for the player. I can't believe we live in a society where this shit is considered well written, fun and deep by people. It's fucking sad.

Dunno about his romance, but I liked Alistair, he was funny. Yes, yes, I have pedestrian sense of humor.

On somewhat unrelated note - I wonder if majority of fair Codexia like to play evil characters (or 'practical', if you will). I usually tend to play kind-hearted ones (yeah, yeah, moralfag, etc). Such discrepancy could explain difference in opinions about NPCs and quests in many cases.

 

[Vibalist]

RPGs fail at even conveying friendship between NPCs, so attempting to write plausible romances is putting the cart before the horse.

I understand your point and I partially agree with it. But still, aren't you being overly pessimistic? Surely some RPGs have managed to convey a sense of friendship between the protagonist and the NPCs - for example, what about the NPCs in Planescape Torment? What about Morte, Annah and Dakkon? And not just friendship either, but very twisted and complex relationships as well. What about Ravel and the Nameless One? Or Kreia and the Exile?

Creating a "realistic" and interesting relationship in an RPG can be done. Where most developers fail, I think, is at creating distinct NPCs with distinct personalities. (Bioware, I'm looking at you.) There is just no point in romancing (or interacting with) a character that doesn't interest you in any way. If I had to choose between romancing Ravel or Leliana, I'd go for Ravel every single time. Ugly hag or not.

But now you're just mentioning NPC's and romances from games like PST and Kotor2. I don't think people here mind those.

 

[Volourn]

PST onyl had one well written romance and KOTOR2 didn't have any.

And, BIO games aren't focused on the romances since they take up a miniscual number of gameplay time.

BIO game players, on the other hand, are very focued on romances. This thread is evidence of that. Why so focuSed on romance Codex? whY?

 

[Linden]

RPGs fail at even conveying friendship between NPCs, so attempting to write plausible romances is putting the cart before the horse.

I understand your point and I partially agree with it. But still, aren't you being overly pessimistic? Surely some RPGs have managed to convey a sense of friendship between the protagonist and the NPCs - for example, what about the NPCs in Planescape Torment? What about Morte, Annah and Dakkon? And not just friendship either, but very twisted and complex relationships as well. What about Ravel and the Nameless One? Or Kreia and the Exile?

Creating a "realistic" and interesting relationship in an RPG can be done. Where most developers fail, I think, is at creating distinct NPCs with distinct personalities. (Bioware, I'm looking at you.) There is just no point in romancing (or interacting with) a character that doesn't interest you in any way. If I had to choose between romancing Ravel or Leliana, I'd go for Ravel every single time. Ugly hag or not.

But now you're just mentioning NPC's and romances from games like PST and Kotor2. I don't think people here mind those.

Yes, true. I was talking about RPGs in general and their ability to convey friendship.

My biggest problem with Bioware is how they keep re-using their old NPCs, not with the NPCs themselves. Leliana and Alistair aren't bad characters per se, it's just that we've met them (and romanced them) so many times already. That's what makes a character feel uninspired and bland: knowing exactly what you'll get.

 

[ChristofferC]

I played through BG2 countless times and never managed to romance anybody.

PST has a romance?

Come to think of it I've never experienced a romance in any game. Or maybe I don't realize I'm romancing. I've played BG+BG2, NWN, like half of NWN2, KOTOR, Dragon Age, PST

 

[Turisas]

I like them when my character gets some tangible benefit (perk/stat/skill unlock, unique item etc.) otherwise bleh.

I liked marrying in FO2 - I pimped my wife then sold her off to slavery when I got bored. Ah, good times.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Ahaha, Saerileth. I never installed that mod, but I remember reading epic thread on Gamespot, of all places, about romance mods.

I never installed it either, and I read that thread and its sequel too.

To understand the myriad ways in which the mod is fucked up: Saerileth has a part where a demon takes away all your Charisma modifying items (the mod requires you to have high Charisma because true love is for pretty people). Now, if you were wearing that ring that gives you 18 Cha, Saerileth dumps you because you're ugly.

There's a lot more stuff in that thread along those lines.


Also, grotsnik, the mod is NOT an ingenious troll. It's made by some married couple and has its own subforum (I think Merilinda has stuff on that site as well). I made a goatse-driveby there once.

There's also the Bishop Romance mod for NWN2 OC by Merilinda, of which I made an unfinished LP (save corrupted, in last chapter) on another forum. It doesn't have the same level of fucked up, but it's pretentious and tedious as hell.

EDIT: Also, the contrast between the text and Nathaniel's portrait is hilarious.

 

[grotsnik]

Also, grotsnik, the mod is NOT an ingenious troll.

I've got my fingers in my ears. I can't hear you. I'm living in a happy, happy world where stupid people are just clever people pretending to be stupid people because they like trolling. Cleve is a twinkly-eyed 50-year-old Aboriginal female professor of literature at Melbourne University in a happy mixed-race marriage who gives out soup to the poor on weekends. Saerilith was written by the FBI to break up paedophile rings, and the Nathaniel mod SV posted just doesn't exist.

You should come join me in here, Vaarna. It's...so peaceful.

 

[Azrael the cat]

RPGs fail at even conveying friendship between NPCs, so attempting to write plausible romances is putting the cart before the horse. They're silly, artificial, and pure ego stroke for lonely storyfags.

Exactly. In fact Bioware games now remind me of that Plinkett review of Attack of the Clones - love is only something like Romeo and Julia, friendships aren't shown in any way but are instead stated as facts, "We're friends", or possibly as some kissing-ass points.

This: what Bioware has in their games bears no resemblance to real relationships or even real friendships. That's why some of us are flabberghasted at their fans - it's just incomprehensible that grown adults could still have that as their fantasy relationship. Being a friend or a lover to someone in a Bioware game is just a combination of repeatedly flattering them, not calling them out on their mistakes and simply being friends/lovers because the plot (or your dialogue option) says you are now, rather than because it's a natural progression of the characters.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

To be honest, I think that RPG romances should be rushed and desperate with a "let's fuck today because tomorrow we may be dead" atmosphere.
I wonder if there are any.

 

[MicoSelva]

[Saerileth mod impressions.]

Good read.

[Nathaniel mod]

WTF IS THIS SHIT!? THIS CANNOT BE REAL! BURN IT! BURN IT WITH FIRE!

 

[TNO]

I've never been better than non-plussed by Bioware romances. I generally just avoid them on principle as my cringe-gland has hypertrophied.

The problems have already been stated, but to recap.

1. All the characters are the same. The progression from Carth/Kaiden/Alistair would be funny until you realize it's been over a decade and Bioware still can't write a tortured male without him being some pathetic whiny bitch. Ditto the "Capable bitchy girl" and "weird shy girl" tropes.

I wouldn't actually mind much if we had a stereotypical capable bitchy girl who does the whole passive-aggressive flirting thing if she was vaguely well written and her dialogue saleable. The problem isn't just these are tired stereotypes. It is that they are tired stereotypes that are poorly executed.


2. All bioware romances are the same. All romances end up with some grand hymn to life (w or wo/ sex) where magic happens and you find yourselves wildly in love. You usually get there by some mix of sappy platitude and playing therapist. Tough capable girl has intimacy issues that need a sympathetic ear and the top-right option in the dialogue wheel. Whiny bitchy male has trust issues that need a sympathetic ear and the top-right option in the dialogue wheel. In return, they'll flatter you about how great/strong/smart/strong-willed you are.

As Azrael pointed out, this is a sad parody of how relationships work. I do wonder whether this is trying to flatter their spotty socially awkward hoardes (it's okay, you can be NICE GUY and all the girls with love you!!111). Further, everyone of vaguely fuckable age is perpetually single, no baggage, and throwing themselves at you because you're so awesome. I guess it would be novel if BW had an attractive female who spent all her time venting to the PC about her nasty boyfriend, broke up with him near the finale but told the PC he's really sweet but she's in a difficult place right now and would rather stay as friends, but I guess it would probably hit a bit too close to home.


3. All bioware romances pay no regard to the wider plot. Love conquers all, including verisilmitude. Mass Effect is one of the worst for this. You can explicitly tell Ashley you kept her alive as opposed to Kaidan because you fancy her (and you still get the romance!) and, despite it being a military vessels, you can happily ask out (or be asked out by) your subordinates.

One could see passion flaring in desperate circumstances before a likely suicide mission. It's somewhat harder to see why you'd try and strike up a lifelong deep-and-fulfilling romance. If Bioware were half decent, perhaps what they could have done is have Ashley and Shepard throwing suggestive barbs at each other, and a causal 'we might die soon so lets make the most of it' hook up at the end. But that isn't sappy enough.



I'm sure there are other good reasons why Bioware romances are reviled. But those are the three that sprung to mind before I lost the will to write more.

 

[octavius]

Ironically, I love the Baldur's Gate games but I've never bought a Bioware game after, since the emphasis of their games seem to revolve around those stupid romances...