So, what is so enticing about the Elder Scrolls lore?

[zool]

When I first played Morrowind a few years ago, I had never heard of the Elder Scrolls and didn't know squat about the lore. Though the lack of gameplay turned me off after some time, I really enjoyed discovering Vvardenfell and the lore - and that's why I come back every 2-3 years to the game for another playthrough (which, needless to say, I never finish). And yet, when you think about it, the ES lore is fucking cheap. It's both a rip-off - with the Imperials being pure copies of the Romans - and full of boringbanalshit ideas with the usual elves, reptile-people from the swamps, nigga people, stealthy furries, etc...

Now I'm by no means an expert in ES lore, and I haven't played the previous games in the series, nor Oblibion. But how can such a mediocre lore still be so entincing, so interesting to discover. Is it the whole religious aspect, which seems to be much less dull than the rest? The factions, with their own motivations and internal politics? Or is it the Dwemers and their secrets? Or are we all partial to this Empire-based political organization, because of our own fascination for the Roman Empire (same thing for the Empire in Star Wars too)?

Share your advice, KKKodex. Smart trolling is welcomed too. And note that this is not a discussion about Morrowind mods.


DraQ, please forgive me

 

[Konjad]

TES lore is pretty much shit, mediocre at best. However many people claim it's enlighting and excellent just because it's not D&D.

Don't bother.

 

[Micmu]

well it has furry and lizard erotic

 

[Konjad]

Oh yeah. There are tons of lizfags and furrfags claiming it's the best setting ever. You might want to ask that question on their forums.

 

[FatCat]

It's better than most generic fantasy we see in RPG's.

 

[Black_Willow]

Oh yeah. There are tons of lizfags and furrfags claiming it's the best setting ever. You might want to ask that question on their forums.

Simply - ask DraQ

 

[JarlFrank]

It's (mostly) well-written, is different from standard D&D or Tolkien inspired fantasy (instead of generic medieval fantasy land you got mushroom forests, ashlands and the Roman Empire), has many different factions with conflicts among each other (in Daggerfall and Morrowind), very well-developed cosmology and religions, politics, rather interesting gods, and lots of ancient mysteries.

Generally it's just well-made and interesting without falling into typical fantasy cliches.

 

[Vagiel]

Well, there seem to be three main reasons.

First is the sheer volume of it. TES has literally books upon books written on it and most of it seems to be quite well made.

Second, and to me the most important, is that the lore does not disregard the fact that it is a game and incorporates it into the it while keeping the fantasy aspect. For example Vivec is aware of the TES construction set and mentions as an allegory in on of his books. It seems during the 90s people were tired of the same clichés so the tried many original ideas (see might and magic with its scifi twist, entomorph, dark sun, torment etc) unfortunately today due to many new players we have gone back to dragons and elves).

Third, I think the way the lore is included into the game is very unique. You are not the centre of it, you are not the most important person ever, the true heroes and the most unique individuals are others and you get to read about them, visit important locations of their legends and make up your own mind about the truth of those events.

You could take a look on a nice article called the metaphysics of Morrowind and see if it clicks with you.

http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2 ... nd-part-1/

 

[abnaxus]

 

[Vagiel]

Is that a picture of own of the writers?

 

[Sceptic]

Third, I think the way the lore is included into the game is very unique. You are not the centre of it, you are not the most important person ever, the true heroes and the most unique individuals are others and you get to read about them, visit important locations of their legends and make up your own mind about the truth of those events.

Highlighted the most important bit. There's much to like about TES lore - JarlFrank mentioned most good aspects - but the one that's pretty much unique in CRPG lore is the placement of so much of the inrepretation into the player's hand. I'm not talking about the stupid type of speculation such as Tali's sweat glands, but multiple layers of ambiguity that are purposefully placed at the points where they have maximum impact. It's not just a matter of having contadictory explanations - each explanation makes perfect sense in context, and there are multiple reasons why this person or group would stick to this or that explanation. And the balancing between giving you enough solid information that the whole doesn't feel like a waste of time, and leaving just enough gaps and contradictions to keep you thinking about which version is really the correct one, is almost perfect (especially since it's ever so slightly biased towards not giving you a proper final explanation). Of course the net result of all this is that it is entirely possible to play through the games (particularly DF and MW) and never even noticed that all this body of lore is there. Nothing is spoonfed to you, nothing is given in obligatory expository cutscenes - it's all up to you to find out, which makes it that much more satisfying. While Morrowind is the game that really solidified this aspect of the lore, there was already plenty of it in Daggerfall (in the MQ) and in Battlespire and Redguard. When you factor all the criss-crossing of lore among the 4 games it creates quite an impressive edifice.

 

[Ruprekt]

Unlike with D&D you could imagine enjoying Morrowind if it had been a novel instead of a game. You get a similar feeling with the Ultima series.

But that's because you are a weak-minded leftist who can only cope with fantasy and genre novels. A real codexer plays roguelikes while reading dostoyevsky.

 

[The Wizard]

Is that a picture of own of the writers?

it's a picture of the guy responsible for most of the interesting religion and metaphysics stuff.

michael krikbride

edit: hahahaha, suck it down.

 

[abnaxus]

Is that a picture of own of the writers?

Michael Kirkbride, better known as MK

edit: fuck, ninja'ed

 

[Vagiel]

Is he still on-board?

 

[FatCat]

Is he still on-board?

He left during morrowind's development.

 

[abnaxus]

Is he still on-board?

He still works freelance for Bethesda

He's been posting some Skyrim lore snippets on Bethboards the previous months.

 

[The Wizard]

as a freelancer, yes. wrote a few ingame books and dialogue for oblivion and knights of the nine addon.

apparently he also writes some for skyrim.

edit: well, looks like i need to suck it now.

 

[Santander02]

Generally it's just well-made and interesting without falling into typical fantasy cliches.

Until Oblivion that is, well see how it turns out in Skyrim, but I don't have much hopes for that game in this respect, especially since most of the people that worked on the lore originally are no longer at Beth.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

they sneak in rape, sluts and gay sex in the books

plus there's furries, like in Wizardry. And that orc god is literally a lump of shit.

sometimes they do all the above at once, at least the books aren't illustrated

 

[Lunac]

Lore in ES is shit. As is in almost every western RPG/CRPG game, good or bad by codexian standards. It's all generic Tolkienesque anglo fag shit, with your standard mainstream fantasy western shit like elves, good-vs-eeebil!, dragons, and what not. With Skyrim they are moving deeper into that territory for obvious sales purposes. If one thing western RPG players can be accused of, even old-school hardcore ones like some here on Codex, is that they are extremely xenophobic when it comes to lore material inspired by non-Tolkienesque non-western sources. They do NOT like to leave their comfort zones which are populated by standard high-fantasy shit found in every RPG in the west from the dawn of time. Hence, the lack of interest in far-east, or even Slavic MMO's by anglo RPG players. Give them their Harry Potter fag shit, even though it's the same shit they've seen in the movies/games over and over again, and they'll be happy little shits.

...
..
.

 

[Vagiel]

While I agree the premise is somewhat generic, it is the unique way lore is delivered, as many have stated so far, in TES games that makes it enjoyable.

It works well due to its sandbox nature, it hides lore into the game and does not force feed you so you actually go, or should go, looking for it thus giving you a purpose to explore, So many sandbox games do not get that you have to have a different premise for them to work, having a strong liner plot in an open world game just doesn't work. Lore hunting would be a good alternative but it is very hard to get right and make the player actually care.

 

[.Sigurd]

http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/

My head is full of fuck. I will never see TES lore the same way again.

 

[Teepo]

I have a follow up question.

In what ways has Elder Scrolls: Oblvion improved on the lore, or changed it?

I played Oblivion for at least 20 hours and don't recall anything about lore.

 

[Mastermind]

and full of boringbanalshit ideas with the usual elves, reptile-people from the swamps, nigga people, stealthy furries, etc...

Actually one of the things that sets it apart from other fantasy games is that the apparently repetitive ideas are usually given some pretty cool twists. There's no idealism in the elves like there was in tolkien. I am usually annoyed by the "humans with pointed ears" type elves, but I find them tolerable in TES. Redguard culture is an odd mixture of middle eastern and japanese. TES is the only game where I can tolerate furries so I can't comment on the khajiit's uniqueness. Even the apparently boring Argonians have some interesting lore attached to them.

Oh, I should add that I love the vibe I get off necromancy in the game. They did a great job (especially in morrowind and oblivion) of making them feel like they are despicable, disturbed individuals working with corpses rather than just walking stereotypes spawning stereotypical fantasy creatures. Now if only a TES game would let you create permanent undead limited only by your corpse supply like every necromancer other than the PC can.

 

[.Sigurd]

I played Oblivion for at least 20 hours and don't recall anything about lore.

Monstly because almost all books are (censored) copies from Morrowind and Daggerfall. The little that has been added is full of contradictions and conflicts with the older lore.

If you want to dive into the TES lore play Daggerfall, Redguard and Morrowind.

 

[Mastermind]

Don't bother playing daggerfall, it's not worth the trouble. Just read the books.