SoZ - win or fail?

[Darth Roxor]

Heh no wonder that you haven't find many outcomes in Fallout's dialogues besides "talk through heavy situation and avoid combat/not avoid combat". Oh wait I believe you're talking about that last Fallout sequel.

Wow. Not only am I amazed about your inability to build possible to understand sentences, but your reading comprehension seems to be of top quality too!

No just enjoying fanboy defenses with "oh you can totally avoid all boring combat encounters in SoZ - you just can't play"

Is that my fault that you suck at it?
Oh hey, FPS games suck, because you have to aim.

I'm simply returning the favour.

...by doing something completely different.

Makes sense.

 

[MetalCraze]

Wow. Not only am I amazed about your inability to build possible to understand sentences, but your reading comprehension seems to be of top quality too!

Better than that of SoZ apparently.

Is that my fault that you suck at it?

Oh hey, FPS games suck, because you have to aim.

Damn you Operation Flashpoint, my favorite FPS game - you have no aiming help and my character can die from one bullet hit! I hate you I hate you

...by doing something completely different.

Makes sense.

Yeah just like trying to prove me that dungeons get bigger (or "bigger") than 2 rooms in the latter part of the game even when I wrote that already.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Better than that of SoZ apparently.

How can a game be good/bad at reading comprehension, chap?

Skyway in wonderland ftw.

Damn you Operation Flashpoint, my favorite FPS game - you have no aiming help and my character can die from one bullet! I hate you I hate you

Oh, I believe you didn't understand the analogy. Allow me to rephrase:

'I can't avoid random encounters, 'cause my 'hide' skill equals zero! What a fucking failure of a gaem!1'
'I can't stop dying because I keep shooting at the sky instead of enemies! What kind of retarded shit is this?!'

Yeah just like trying to prove me that dungeons get bigger (or "bigger") than 2 rooms in the latter part of the game even when I wrote that already.

Funny thing, I said that they get bigger (yes, bigger, not "bigger", because even if you take your great example of 5 rooms, like time I checked, 5 > 2, basic maths) first. Not to mention that you kept talking about the 2 rooms like the previously mentioned 'five' were sarcastic and non-existent

 

[Volourn]

"My thoughts exactly. Most of the people who bitch about SoZ are actually people who utterly fail at playing the game."

Yeah, and everyonme ehre who hates NWN OC just suck at it. i like this idea.

And, oh, the 'dungeons' in SOZ are NOT dungeons. Anything the size of a small inn or even smaller is NOT a dungeon. When it takes you literally a minute or less to clear a palce it is NOT a dungeon. When easy random encounters have as much dept as a 'dungeon'; it's not really a dungeon.

SOZ 'dungeons' are not claustrophobic. They're stupid, bland, small, retarded, and pathetic. And, this is supposed to be a combat/exploration expansion?

Obsidian's SOZ makes the sam mistake or even BIO's ME makes. They think size or numbers is enough to make such exploration fun. Exploration is only fun if soemthing is worthy of exploration. Find a 'ruin', 'crypt', or 'cave' that is basiclaly aset piece akin to random encounters is not fun exploration. There's no depth, no soul, no atmos[here, just blandness that bores one to the EXTREME in SOZ.

Give me back TOEE, please.

P.S. Only morons get wiped out in SOZ. Talk about pathetic.

 

[MetalCraze]

How can a game be good/bad at reading comprehension, chap?

Skyway in wonderland ftw.

I was talking about quality, sorry.

Oh, I believe you didn't understand the analogy.

Or I wasn't serious.

Allow me to rephrase:

'I can't avoid random encounters, 'cause my 'hide' skill equals zero! What a fucking failure of a gaem!1'
'I can't stop dying because I keep shooting at the sky instead of enemies! What kind of retarded shit is this?!'

Or
"Just about enough of encounters can't be avoided to make the game boring for me - even with Hide skill that is much higher than zero"
Now this is better than fanboish "you either like the gaem or you just suck at it" (tm)
Also copy-pasta encounters are not the only problem of this game.

Funny thing, I said that they get bigger (yes, bigger, not "bigger", because even if you take your great example of 5 rooms, like time I checked, 5 > 2, basic maths) first. Not to mention that you kept talking about the 2 rooms like the previously mentioned 'five' were sarcastic and non-existent

The thing is dungeons are still ridiculously small throughout the whole game.


Also I hate you for making me prove my points which kinda puts me on the Volourn's side.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Or
"Just about enough of encounters can't be avoided to make the game boring for me - even with Hide skill that is much higher than zero"

Then you really must have some bizarro version of the game with monsters that have wallhack, aimbots and radar systems.

Now this is better than fanboish "you either like the gaem or you just suck at it" (tm)

Ohoho, oh no, reading comprehension says "hi" again. Not once have I said that everyone who doesn't like the game sucks at it, I said that most who [/b]bitch about encounters[/b] suck at it.

 

[MetalCraze]

Ohoho indeed - let's go the other way, shall we?

You say that people who bitch about encounters just suck at the game yet your recommendations go down to "avoiding the encounters". So apparently bitching about their copy-pasta shittiness is wrong and they are so good that are needed to be avoided - which brings that good ol' question from the previous page again - "why did Obsidian put them there in the first place?" and the argument about the crap state of encounters which was the original point of the bitching.
ZING

 

[Darth Roxor]

Didn't I make myself fucking clear like three fucking times before, you thickskulled hack? Yes, there are definitely too many encounters as a whole, but if their number was halfed, people would still BAAAAAW how the big bad monsters were attacking them all the time and they had to wait hours because of the loading times, and if there was like 1/10 of the encounters, spot/listen/search/survival/and possibly hide would be reduced to the status of Fallout's Outdoorsman, which most people find marginally useless.

The encounters are supposed to encourage the use of previously almost absolutely useless skills, or perhaps even force their usage, because neglecting them teaches you a lesson the hard way to bring them next time.

But hey, I thought party-based RPGs were all about it, to get a balanced team that covers all the things you need in the game without having jack-of-trades superheroes.

Also I hate you for making me prove my points which kinda puts me on the Volourn's side.

Volourn makes more sense than you out here. At least his grudge is believable, that the encounters are too easy, and he doesn't hide the fact about not having anyone with hide/move silently, which eliminates the concept of monsters with radars.

 

[MetalCraze]

The encounters are supposed to encourage the use of previously almost absolutely useless skills, or perhaps even force their usage, because neglecting them teaches you a lesson the hard way to bring them next time.

yes force their usage. Because what you don't seem to get is that encounters are boring and the only thing that skills influence is how many boring fights will you get during travels on the overland map - and that is a bad design choice. Less encounters + better combat/combat encounter design and it would've been just the right thing.
And again - it is far not the only thing that makes SoZ to be a bland shit on a par with NWN2 OC.

 

[Darth Roxor]

yes force their usage. Because what you don't seem to get is that encounters are boring

I said that numerous times that I'd probably get frustrated about random encounters if I didn't avoid them all

and the only thing that skills influence is how many boring fights will you get during travels on the overland map - and that is a bad design choice.

Bollocks inc. There are plenty of skill checks for stuff like spot/survival in dialogues and for purposes other than avoiding encounters on the overland map

Less encounters + better combat/combat encounter design and it would've been just the right thing.

Okay then, how many of the current encounters would be 'just the right thing' for you? Half? 1/10? None?
And better encounter design? Please say how you'd do that too, then.

 

[Volourn]

"Okay then, how many of the current encounters would be 'just the right thing' for you? Half? 1/10? None?"

How about not having to have 5-10 encounters inbetween cities/towns even when on the road just as a start. Less hostile encounters as well when the situation warrants it ie. on the FUCKIN' road.


"And better encounter design? Please say how you'd do that too, then."

This is fuckin' easy. Espicially since I've been crafting random encounters for FUCKIN' years.

Random encounters are supposed to accomplish various things:

a) Keep the players on their toes so long journeys aren't just getting to the next destination for the plot.

b) Should be interesting, and worthwhile in some way.

c) Should be varied.

d) Should be challenging.

e) Should add to the fun; not subtract from it.

f) Should give the players a chance to flex their combat skills from time to time against 'lesser opponents'.

g) Should not always consist of combat (or simply avoiding).

h) Should sometimes be connected to the story.

i) Should fit the area.


Here are some examples:

1. Random goblin encounters in SOZ could be more worthwhile if they were actually mixed groups. They could also be associated with one of the clans in the area. If you just wiped out a clan, you could stumble into one and parlay a bit. Maybe even taunt them about wiping out their kin. Or if youa r eevil, and haven't wiped them out, you could maybe give them directions to a rival goblin clan's cave is so they can attack it.

2. It's okay to have easy random encounters to mix things up. Afterall, not every encounter should be designed to punish or MURDER DEAH KILL players as always being in danger from 'lesser foes' sucks. That's why the xvart battles in BG2 was fun 'cause they were easy, and you can cause mayhem and show off your fancy skills. It's why one of my 3 favorite fights in SOZ was a cave full of pussy orcs. Greta cleave can be cool to show off your prowess. Just don't overdo it.

3. Opposite to the above, it's okay to have really tough random encounters that makes the player take it seriously. This does several things - it gets the players to think ahead so they always try to be ready. ie. Unlike me in SOZ where I don't bother to heal myself in between random encounters as I don't expect to be threatened by anything. Nor do I bother to buff at all during them.I should feel the obligation to actually take fights seriously - even random ones. The party should be a ware that the next fight could be deadly hence make your hide skills worthwhile. Why should I really care about hiding from foes when they are no threat to me anyways? But, hey, if my party was weakened, and I just wanted to survive to the next town/area I can rest, you better believe I'd want to avoid randoms at all cost. Currnetly, the only reason why i hate them is because they are boring.

4. A merchant random encounter could sell items not seen in stores currently or a way to sell junk. A random encounter with citziens on the road heading to the next town might give you clues of what maybe there. A random encounter with a druid or ranger can let you know what animals are in the area. Etc., etc.

5. Random encounters can be tied into either the main plot, or side quests. See above with the goblin example. A random encounter early with yaunti scouts/spies could to clues on where they are hiding. A random encounter with an illithid and his goons capturing villagers can show you in action how they get their food tying in with their underdark store/camp. If you ahd alreayd wiped store out said random encounter with an illithid is it fleeing after realizing his allies are dead. Etc., etc. he could either recognize you (he was there when you started killing, and decided to flee to get reinforcements or just to escape).


The list can go on. And, if little 'ol lame me can come up with such basic ideas then so should Obsidian.

Random encounters should not = bullshit boringc rap that adds NOTHING to the game.

P.S. SOZ is not the only game that does this (all games fall prey including FO, BG, and so on); but SOZ is no doubt one of the biggest offenders ever of useless encounetrs that add nothing to the game but piles of xp. They're not fun in either way 'cause they're poorly deisgned. In FO, afterall, a random encounter with mutants could lead to your death. In BG, you need to keep your characters in relatively good health or the next encounter could be your last even if on its own it be easy. Just not true in SOZ.

 

[MetalCraze]

Whoa.
Can I quote Volourn's post now, Darth Roxor?

And maybe it will help you understand that SoZ random encounters are shit and shouldn't be there if the only purprose of their existence is to be avoided.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Whoa.
Can I quote Volourn's post now, Darth Roxor?

Be my guest. You could learn a lot from Volourn, like, you know, building comprehensible sentences.

b) Should be interesting, and worthwhile in some way.

They are worthwhile. You get wagons of undeserved xp for them.

c) Should be varied.

As in, you should be able to face various undead, various greenskins, various giants, various bandits, various reptiles, various elementals, various beasts and animals?

d) Should be challenging.

That depends on the playstyle. When I finally meet some encounter it's not exactly a walk in the park most of the times, and a prayer or recitation here and there sure helps.

e) Should add to the fun; not subtract from it.

Again, depends on the gameplay. I enjoy an encounter every now and then, because I'm not getting bugged by them constantly

f) Should give the players a chance to flex their combat skills from time to time against 'lesser opponents'.

And how is that missing in the game?

g) Should not always consist of combat (or simply avoiding).

You mean like that guy who tries to scam you to buy his supposedly mithril and magic junk? Or that woodsman who you can heal? Or the mob of plagued people you can heal after a diplomacy check because they don't trust you? Or all the supply crates, dead bodies with gold, trees with hidden stuff etc? Are they not random non-combat encounters?

i) Should fit the area.

Like that pirate captain with his crew at the seaside near Neverwinter that you can rob blind, let go or kill and get an alignment shift? Like earth elementals and shambling mounds on the swamp and water elementals on the shore?

2. It's okay to have easy random encounters to mix things up. Afterall, not every encounter should be designed to punish or MURDER DEAH KILL players as always being in danger from 'lesser foes' sucks. That's why the xvart battles in BG2 was fun 'cause they were easy, and you can cause mayhem and show off your fancy skills. It's why one of my 3 favorite fights in SOZ was a cave full of pussy orcs. Greta cleave can be cool to show off your prowess. Just don't overdo it.

Subjective. Personally, I found the trash encounters in BG (gibberlings, xvarts) to be a nuisance and nothing else.

3. Opposite to the above, it's okay to have really tough random encounters that makes the player take it seriously. This does several things - it gets the players to think ahead so they always try to be ready. ie. Unlike me in SOZ where I don't bother to heal myself in between random encounters as I don't expect to be threatened by anything. Nor do I bother to buff at all during them.I should feel the obligation to actually take fights seriously - even random ones. The party should be a ware that the next fight could be deadly hence make your hide skills worthwhile. Why should I really care about hiding from foes when they are no threat to me anyways? But, hey, if my party was weakened, and I just wanted to survive to the next town/area I can rest, you better believe I'd want to avoid randoms at all cost. Currnetly, the only reason why i hate them is because they are boring.

No wonder they lack challenge and are boring to you if you hacked and slashed your way through all of them. If you fought all the encounters on your way, I suspect you were leaving Samarach at like, level 12.

5. Random encounters can be tied into either the main plot, or side quests. See above with the goblin example. A random encounter early with yaunti scouts/spies could to clues on where they are hiding. A random encounter with an illithid and his goons capturing villagers can show you in action how they get their food tying in with their underdark store/camp. If you ahd alreayd wiped store out said random encounter with an illithid is it fleeing after realizing his allies are dead. Etc., etc. he could either recognize you (he was there when you started killing, and decided to flee to get reinforcements or just to escape).

Random encounters should not = bullshit boringc rap that adds NOTHING to the game.

And just how many of these would it be possible to implement? Not too many. The goblin one would happen once - great, twice - ok, thrice - falls into repetitiveness. "Special" random encounters are nice yes, but it's hard to invent a lot of them, and getting them for pnp is a real damn lot easier, because pnp sessions are relatively smaller than video games, and you can invent and modify the encounters as you see fit, while in a video game they can only be programmed.

P.S. SOZ is not the only game that does this (all games fall prey including FO, BG, and so on); but SOZ is no doubt one of the biggest offenders ever of useless encounetrs that add nothing to the game but piles of xp.

Name a game that did it good then, 'cause I don't believe I remember a single one.

In FO, afterall, a random encounter with mutants could lead to your death.

Yeah, especially when every mutant drops dead after one shot to the eyes from the sniper or gauss rifle.

In BG, you need to keep your characters in relatively good health or the next encounter could be your last even if on its own it be easy. Just not true in SOZ.

BG? Don't make me laugh, although I played BG a rather long time ago, I remember that the most 'challenging' random encounter was an ogre mage (which was, well, not challenging at all), while BG2 didn't have almost any random encounters, except bands of thieves in Athkatla, and these were also cakewalk. I'm not quite sure what strange version of SoZ you played, but I'm quite sure that if you went with your whole party at 1/2 hp, without any spells straight into an EL12 monstrous band or a mob of ghasts that can paralyze you in a second, that would also be 'your last'.

Let me ask you a question then: On what levels were your party members when you quitted, and where were you in the game? Fresh on the sword coast, a bit through the sword coast, long on the sword coast, somewhere at the end?

 

[Andyman Messiah]

You're fighting the good fight, Darth. Wish I could help you out.

 

[Darth Roxor]

 

[MetalCraze]

Be my guest. You could learn a lot from Volourn, like, you know, building comprehensible sentences.

Or you just could learn to read you know. Anyway - using the predictable reply when there are no arguments, aye?

They are worthwhile. You get wagons of undeserved xp for them.

Holy crap! You get exp for living through boring fights. That surely makes them more interesting - just like in mmorpgs.

As in, you should be able to face various undead, various greenskins, various giants, various bandits, various reptiles, various elementals, various beasts and animals?

Or actually being able to face something that isn't generic exp meat. But good combat design is not what we here at Obsidian do well.

Again, depends on the gameplay. I enjoy an encounter every now and then, because I'm not getting bugged by them constantly

So why not make them much less frequent? It could be just the same thing. Instead of avoiding them because they are boring.

And how is that missing in the game?

There is nothing except grinding in those encounters?

You mean like that guy who tries to scam you to buy his supposedly mithril and magic junk? Or that woodsman who you can heal? Or the mob of plagued people you can heal after a diplomacy check because they don't trust you? Or all the supply crates, dead bodies with gold, trees with hidden stuff etc? Are they not random non-combat encounters?

holy crap you can help people for no visible result or find useless loot. That's some fun there.

Subjective. Personally, I found the trash encounters in BG (gibberlings, xvarts) to be a nuisance and nothing else.

So what makes SoZ encounters any different?

And just how many of these would it be possible to implement? Not too many.

Yes - not too many. I think you nearly got it.

BG? Don't make me laugh

In BG your characters at least could die. Like forever. And not be resurrected via retarded coin of life if you don't have cleric (alive) in the middle of the battle.

 

[Kaiserin]

Is it worth picking up the OC over?

 

[Gay-Lussac]

You're fighting the good fight, Darth. Wish I could help you out.

I'd suggest he stops before he loses his sanity. Arguing with those 2 is pretty much like arguing with a stop sign.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Is it worth picking up the OC over?

Let's put it this way...

1) Did you like BG2?
a) yes
b) no

If you answered b), most likely you won't like the OC, since it's pretty much just BG2 with smaller size, blander encounters and vastly improved writing, story and NPCs. It's not a Fallout 1 or a PS:T, but as far as generic DnD goes, it's pretty good.

 

[MetalCraze]

You're fighting the good fight, Darth. Wish I could help you out.

Free Storm of Zehir!

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Is it worth picking up the OC over?

Let's put it this way...

1) Did you like BG2?
a) yes
b) no

If you answered b), most likely you won't like the OC, since it's pretty much just BG2 with smaller size, blander encounters and vastly improved writing, story and NPCs. It's not a Fallout 1 or a PS:T, but as far as generic DnD goes, it's pretty good.

I hated BG 2, loved the OC.

 

[ricolikesrice]

...

Darth you have some points but the funny thing is ..... these points could all be made about the NWN2 and hell.... even the NWN1 OC , which were both mostly ripped apart by the codex.

i m not sure what your stance on the NWN2 OC is but i personally DID enjoy it for what it was ( no great, but an okay game) - a lot of people however saw it as the next big crime since oblivion....

people may hate skyway but at least he s consistent, he hated NWN2 OC, he hates SOZ (okay, maybe he just hates every game ^^). same about volourn or others.

but its fucking hilarious to see how SoZ, which is around if not slightly inferior the
NWN1 & 2 OCs, gets soo much praise ... especially when many of these praising now ripped NWN2 OC apart.

i m really interested in reading why SoZ deserves to be cRPG 2008 where NWN2 OC deserved not even a review on the prestigious codex and lots of flak (granted, some - incl. me - have always defended it for a not great, but playable game )
given in all things the codex likes ( choices & consequences, important of non-combat skills, atmospheric world, etc. etc ) SoZ barely matches or is even inferior to the OCs of both NWN games.

the only things i could come up is that SoZ gives you a full party instead of being forced to party with fucktards and that instead of big boring dungeons full of trash combat & trash loot .... you get an overland with plenty of tiny boring dungeons full of trash combat & trash loot.

surely, merely being able to make your own party doesnt turn the shit of 2006 into the gold of 2008 ?

btw i m no longer in the "SoZ sucks" camp. having some fun since the atrocius first half is done with. not great, maybe not even good but definitly playable for my medium standards.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Is it worth picking up the OC over?

Let's put it this way...

1) Did you like BG2?
a) yes
b) no

If you answered b), most likely you won't like the OC, since it's pretty much just BG2 with smaller size, blander encounters and vastly improved writing, story and NPCs. It's not a Fallout 1 or a PS:T, but as far as generic DnD goes, it's pretty good.

I hated BG 2, loved the OC.

Good point.

Personally I rate NWN2 OC above BG2 without hesitation because of the facts that it contains instances of actual c&c, has far better writing, worthwhile dialogue, alignment actually matters and it has an NPC that ninjaed in from a better class of RPGs.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

You're fighting the good fight, Darth. Wish I could help you out.

Free Storm of Zehir!

Leave Storm of Zehir alone!! :evil:

 

[Radisshu]

Is it worth picking up the OC over?

Let's put it this way...

1) Did you like BG2?
a) yes
b) no

If you answered b), most likely you won't like the OC, since it's pretty much just BG2 with smaller size, blander encounters and vastly improved writing, story and NPCs. It's not a Fallout 1 or a PS:T, but as far as generic DnD goes, it's pretty good.

I hated BG 2, loved the OC.

Good point.

Personally I rate NWN2 OC above BG2 without hesitation because of the facts that it contains instances of actual c&c, has far better writing, worthwhile dialogue, alignment actually matters and it has an NPC that ninjaed in from a better class of RPGs.

BG2 does not lack C&C, only in the main quest. I think its biggest flaw is that it only gives the PC two possible motivations to get Irenicus, at least to begin with, none of which really fits an evil PC. The NWN2 OC is ridiculously linear, though, and how many instances of real C&C are there?