StarCraft 2 - Tales From BlizzCon 2007

[Hellraiser]

It's not that I am not unable to select multiple structures and issue build orders fast enough, it's that I find it a pain in the ass since it could have been simpler, more efficient and convenient process. Just because I find something a pain in the ass doesn't mean that it's because I am unable to do it.

I understand your point about the need for many various layers in which players can show their skill superiority during a match. However layers shouldn't be added at the expense of limiting the interface. It's just shitty design in my opinion. They could as well get rid of shortcut keys to add another layer.

I also understand that both strategy and tactics along with twitch aspect in SC(and other RTS games) go hand in hand. The examples provided in my original post may not have been the best(or simply crappy) and may have implied a lot of things that they weren't supposed to.

The basic message they were supposed to send was that I simply don't like it when things that could be more efficient and convenient without affecting the gameplay much. Minor things in an RTS game(like selecting multiple structures) shouldn't be made into whole laye in which players can show off their skill. It's my opinion you don't have to(and most likely won't) agree with it.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

So this dude with the long black hair in the t-shirt (look at the screenshot I posted) is Raynor? God that sucks.

I though actually the Player would be Raynor (from a 1st person perspective) and that dude would be someone else.

 

[Kraszu]

Well part of hi level gaming is throwing your opponent of game (harrasing diferent places) if you make macro to easy that aspect can not be so good. Decision on what to use time on will also not exist if macro will be to easy. But we have to wait and see as those things are very hard to predict (haw game will develop) war3 have also much stronger units and creeps that slow the pace greatly.

"I understand your point about the need for many various layers in which players can show their skill superiority during a match. However layers shouldn't be added at the expense of limiting the interface. It's just shitty design in my opinion. They could as well get rid of shortcut keys to add another layer. "

It is about balance you could also say that units should micro theme self (like all focus fire on most dmg unit when in range) becouse you don't to micromanage it and just focus on strategies.


As for co-operation missions there is only bits of information there will be separate missions so I think that there will be normal sp map whit 2 bases for you and your ally.

 

[Woetohice]

__

 

[fizzelopeguss]

TeamLiquid

rofl.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Dialogue trees? In Starcraft?

Wut?

Bet u Horner is a spai 2. He has that "ima bad guy" look.

Why am I walking around my Battlecruiser too? And why am I upgrading everything there and not in-game? I dunno, that stuff looks like it'll be neat but... Wut's all dis RPG doin' in mah RTS?

... and did I just hear "transform and roll out"? Did I?

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Has Raynor been Shepardized? The scruffy beard, the hair, the look, the clothes.....they all seem as though they are trying very hard to be as EXTREME as can be.

 

[Jasede]

Yes. Please. Oh god. YES. That's... indescribable.

 

[pkt-zer0]

Has Raynor been Shepardized? The scruffy beard, the hair, the look, the clothes.....they all seem as though they are trying very hard to be as EXTREME as can be.

Original concept art for SC1
Seems to me like an older version of that, not really Shepardized.

 

[dagorkan]

Hey guys, don't worry! Starcraft 2 will be just the same as it's predecessor, it will be just as radically and extremely moronic.

 

[Jasede]

What *was* wrong SC 1? I am not a fan of RTS games, too twitchy, but SC seemed to be a pretty good one to me. Three unique and (this is rare) balanced races, an amusing (if a bit low-brow) campaign, great graphics... The only thing about it I didn't like is the lack of AI, the moronic pathfinding and the huge flaws of the interface. (Only select 12 units at a time and other such jazz. Imagine, you can't even group buildings together!)

 

[denizsi]

Cool. Dont play that "shit" then.

Just because of one single problem? That's not me. I at least suggest an actual improvement in place for stale broken mechanics.

A game like Starcraft cannot have 1000 limit like SupCom does. Just CANNOT. Period.

Are you doing that on purpose? Who ever said 1000? Think about going up and down within 50-200something limits.

He can transform into an airbourne unit. And yes, it's originall a fusion of now obsolete goliath and valkyrie.

That's ok I guess. I don't know.

That looks like Sawyer from Lost.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Has Raynor been Shepardized? The scruffy beard, the hair, the look, the clothes.....they all seem as though they are trying very hard to be as EXTREME as can be.

Uhm, just to set the record straight: I'd just like to say that despite Bio's attempts at looking XTREME, Shepard looks like a pussified Dandy from a male cosmetics commercial.

 

[dagorkan]

The problem with Starcraft is that you spend 75% of your time clicking buttons to build units or new buildings to build more units. And building harvester things so you have money to build buildings to build units. That's the problem right there. Only 10% of your time, if that, is spent on tactics, deploying your units and attacking.

75% of the game is like a speeded up, race-the-clock retarded version of SimCity: completely boring and stupid - in SimCity at least you can slow things down so you can keep track of what you're building and can plan what you're going to build.

The only way to get 'good' at it is either to spend weeks or months of your life learning by trial and error or to memorize volumes of useless information and strategies from the internet, and basically apply it in-game.

It's like studying for an exam and just as exciting... and what for? The actual combat part of the game is very simple and the only order you can give your units is to attack (OK, a few have a special ability). There is no terrain to take advantage of, no ammo restriction, no morale effects, practically all that matters is how many units of what type in what combination, and unless one of you brings in reinforcements you know who's going to win.

Like someone said in another thread, people don't play games to perform menial tasks, and doing as many menial tasks as possible as quickly as possible in a pre-determined order is the key to the resource management side of the game. It's just not fun. Being good at resource management has nothing to do with 'skill' but with how high your tolerance for aping mindless routine bullshit is. Which is probably why so many Koreans excel at Starcraft and enjoy it since it seems to be in their culture... what amazes is me is that Westernized people would want to 'compete' with them.

 

[Kraszu]

The problem with Starcraft is that you spend 75% of your time clicking buttons to build units or new buildings to build more units. And building harvester things so you have money to build buildings to build units. That's the problem right there. Only 10% of your time, if that, is spent on tactics, deploying your units and attacking.

Sure if you are noob camper. Watch some povs whit English commentary Nony one of the best USA players:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

75% of the game is like a speeded up, race-the-clock retarded version of SimCity: completely boring and stupid - in SimCity at least you can slow things down so you can keep track of what you're building and can plan what you're going to build.

It is fast game so you have to play ahead, if you build cybernetics core you do it for reason to to think what to build now.

The only way to get 'good' at it is either to spend weeks or months of your life learning by trial and error or to memorize volumes of useless information and strategies from the internet, and basically apply it in-game.

Learning build orders take couple of minutes learning timing would take longer, haw that more useless then in any other game?

It's like studying for an exam and just as exciting... and what for?

That is plain silly you like humanistic subject more then math right? You bash Chess for that reason also SC is nothing in compassion when it comes to that information memorizing.

The actual combat part of the game is very simple and the only order you can give your units is to attack (OK, a few have a special ability). There is no terrain to take advantage of, no ammo restriction, no morale effects, practically all that matters is how many units of what type in what combination, and unless one of you brings in reinforcements you know who's going to win.

LOL that simply has nothing to do whit reality other then possibility to predict outcome more or less. Flanking hi ground, few special abilities that change combat complitly (it is not the number of them important but haw much they change). All the micro avoiding storm spreading marines against lurkers, terrain is very important it is very hard to kill terran vulture/mines/tank whit Protoss whithout flanking. 2 lurkers on choke can stop infinite number of marines.

Like someone said in another thread, people don't play games to perform menial tasks, and doing as many menial tasks as possible as quickly as possible in a pre-determined order is the key to the resource management side of the game.[/quote]

If you are talking about macro that is also depend on game flaw, that is why harras is so important to throw opponent of his game. Those task are unskilled you have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyway only way to understand is to watch povs, not that it guarantee it.

 

[dagorkan]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nony+starcraft&search=Search

And you pretend it isn't a twitch game? How are you supposed to play against someone like that?

I didn't say you don't have to work to become 'good' at Starcraft or that there isn't stuff to learn, I said that it's shitty gameplay. You can be good at any game if you practice enough, if you spent ten thousand hours in your basement playing the same boring game over and over probably anybody could become as 'good' as that guy. I don't think it's much of an accomplishment.

 

[Kraszu]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nony+starcraft&search=Search

And you pretend it isn't a twitch game? How are you supposed to play against someone like that?

You said:"The problem with Starcraft is that you spend 75% of your time clicking buttons to build units or new buildings to build more units. And building harvester things so you have money to build buildings to build units. That's the problem right there. Only 10% of your time, if that, is spent on tactics, deploying your units and attacking."

I proved you wrong and you flip flopped now, sure SC require twitch skills nobody said otherwise it doesn't mean that it has no strategy to it and other elements then twitch gameplay. Micro also require twitch skill.

Sure you will not be able to play against him, but even whit same twitch skills you would not be able becouse he can analyse game 2134123 times better then you.

I didn't say you don't have to work to become 'good' at Starcraft or that there isn't stuff to learn, I said that it's shitty gameplay. You can be good at any game if you practice enough, if you spent ten thousand hours in your basement playing the same boring game over and over probably anybody could become as 'good' as that guy. I don't think it's much of an accomplishment.

Sure sure if that were true when 2 korean professionals were playing they chances to win would be close to 50:50 all of them play many hours a day all of them was good before they became pro. You are just 100% ignorant on subject. And the game is not boring each game is diferent somebody who doesn't know much will not see that that is why I give you link to pov whit commentary to see that. Making units is also not boring it makes you just do something constantly in between other actions as seen on pov not as main aspect as you said. If you don't like macro game is not for you it doesn't mean that game is boring it ads new level of metagaming to game just see the difference of very good player that is harrased good and the same player who is not harrased haw better his macro will be in second case. There are also vods whit good commentary that can make you understand what is going on and why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrkrfyvzkDc

I don't think that ability to select multiple buildings will necessary ruin the game but I am not sure about it.

Also important aspect in pro gaming is making new build orders to new map adopting them to opponent building timing. Not everybody can do that there are some players much more creative then others.

 

[denizsi]

I don't think that ability to select multiple buildings will necessary ruin the game but I am not sure about it.

I don't think it's a big deal. Interchangable building addons sound more concerning.

 

[Kraszu]

As for the cup I think that game will be balanced only whit set cup limit, also I don't really see much point to it, if you would select it very small it would just make players camp and making they planned units as taking expansion would not make much sense, if it would be to big it would make game normal but it could make it less aggressive later on.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrkrfyvzkDc

Woah. Is he actually playing or just flicking a screen madly around like someone with ADD? Mind you I really like the calm, slow voice in comparison to the madness on screen.

 

[Kraszu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrkrfyvzkDc

Woah. Is he actually playing or just flicking a screen madly around like someone with ADD? Mind you I really like the calm, slow voice in comparison to the madness on screen.

It isn't from player view it is observer view somebody who doesn't play but just watch.

 

[Atrokkus]

I was too busy hauling crates yesterday-today, so ccoulnd't answer that shithead in time.
Thank Kraszu, you pretty much nailed it, as always (btw, why arent you playin with us anymore?)

 

[denizsi]

Btw, is there a way or some app to take a complete screenshot of the map in SC? To take the whole map at the moment as a screenshot?

 

[kingcomrade]

You should only be able to select one unit at a time. It would make the game more skillful. Also, you should only be able to build through the f10 menu. Just letting people click on their workers, click on build, and then select their building is gonna ruin progaming.

 

[Suicidal]

You should only be able to select one unit at a time. It would make the game more skillful. Also, you should only be able to build through the f10 menu. Just letting people click on their workers, click on build, and then select their building is gonna ruin progaming.

And pressing 'move' every time you want to move your unit, like in Dune.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

I don't think it's a big deal. Interchangable building addons sound more concerning.

You mean they have universal add-ons? So you can build one on your two factories, lift off with a factory, and then plop a starport down to quickly access the upgrades from the add-on structure? Seems like a lot of work for not a lot of tempo, but I guarantee there will be Koreans going wild with stuff like this and exploiting it as much as can be.