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Supreme Commander is a good game?

Ion Flux

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I've been playing the demo for this and in my opinion, it's pretty horrible.


1. Unit balance seems terribly skewed. My units get destroyed by enemy turrets with 1-2 shots, but my commander unit can walk in an wreak havoc and then just walk away and auto heal.

2. There is nothing really novel about the gameplay. It seems to follow the basic formula of: gather resources, build base, build units, destroy enemy. Nothing really creative or compelling.

3. The art design is terribly bland.


It seemed to have been really well received, so I'm just wondering if the demo isn't doing the game justice, or do my major beefs apply to the full game as well.
 

Kaiserin

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1. Unit balance seems terribly skewed. My units get destroyed by enemy turrets with 1-2 shots, but my commander unit can walk in an wreak havoc and then just walk away and auto heal.
I think the balance has been updated several times since the demo, might be newer demos that I'm unaware of though.

2. There is nothing really novel about the gameplay. It seems to follow the basic formula of: gather resources, build base, build units, destroy enemy. Nothing really creative or compelling.
The only thing novel about it is the complexity of the build orders and how many different ways you can gather the resources. From what I have observed, the game focuses a lot more heavily on how you gather the resources and what kind of buildings you build than how you move your units around or what kind of tactical decisions you make. It's kind of a 'step back' in many respects I suppose, it's all about finding the 'right order for the right map.'

It's okay for a certain kind of person I guess.
 

Dmitron

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I remember spamming power stations. And then spamming more power stations.

Ion Flux said:
3. The art design is terribly bland.
I never felt I actually wanted to zoom in and view the battle.
 

NiM82

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SC and Forged Alliance are pretty crappy imo. Much preferred TA/TA Spring overall. Only things I liked were the dynamic queuing/waypoint system and the ferry option, everything else sucked. Lots of weird omissions from TA too, like different types of constructor, ability to reclaim/ressurect ship wrecks, etc. I was also shocked they hadn't improved the air AI, or figured out a better way of controlling them than assigning patrol routes and hoping they don't land next to enemy when you manually assign a target in the heat of battle.

Lots of insanely stupid technical design decisions too, like making simple range/sight rings, a must have element, the most resource intensive component, using a hideous amount of unoptimised shaders (WHY!?). On a 8800GTX turning them on, even just briefly, halves frame rates to an unacceptable level instantly. No one I know played with them due to this, the forums were awash with complaints about it, yet nothing was ever done. Seems you need to have SLi to get range rings :roll:
 

Herbert West

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OMG WALL OF TEXT!!! TAKE COVER!!!

As I've played it for some time rather avidly, I can add to this thread. It's however based on the newest version with the expansion pack included, which changes the game for the better. And it concerns the multiplayer. Singleplayer isn't really that good.

This game is about economy in a very, very big way. Due to the resource system, a player can only be good if he's as efficient in this regard as possible. That means using up all your resource income as it comes, not letting supplies acumulate, and, not using up too much, since that will stall all the fabrication, will power down shield, stealth fields, artilery and radars. Dmitron says he spammed power gens. The trick is not to overinvest in infrastructure of any kind too, since all that mass and energy could be turned into units. Spare power generators don't shoot, take up space and unit cap.
Resources can also be aquired from stones, trees, ruins and wrecks left on a battlefield.
Battles can be waged over particulary rich wreck fields. One can reclaim them even if no storage space is left, which means that it goes to waste, if there's danger of it falling into enemy hands... The complexity and extreme importance of economy in this game opens a lot of viable strategies. The economical part can be summarised easily by what banks try to do, that is stay financialy fluid- do not let spare cash to accumulate, have it work, or someone will grow faster than you, and don't ever have not enough to cover your expenses. Putting this simple rule into practice in this game is difficult and challenging, especially as the match progresses. But mastering it gives a lot of satisfaction and will win the game versus most inefficient opponents.

There are many, many units available. There are factional differences that influence the way those units are used tactically, ie on the battlefield, microing them. The sheer number of different units and structures creates a lot of possibilities. No point in going into detail, but there are many unorthodox uses that can be made of them, some leading directly to winning the game. It's not a mindless unit spam, although that can win games against less skilled players, which can be said about any RTS.

Commander is special. If he's destroyed, the game is lost. He is vastly more durable and destructve than anything available early in the game, which prevents games ending by rush after a few minutes. There are many upgrades that can be fitted on it, some having economic funtions, other engineering use, support functions for units in the field, UEF can fit a nuke launcher on it for example, Aeon can slap a teleporter. There are also guns n' armor. Later in the game he can be destroyed rather easily and will not linger in the field, sitting behind layered shields and defences, which forces the game to escalate. I feel this whole aspect is done very well.

Unit ballance is for the most part done well, partly because all four sides [counting the seraphim from the expansion] have simmilar units. There are two imbalances.

One is that Tier 3 air units are relatively very powerful, although that is mainly in one single role- assasinating enemy commanders in multiplayer games. Commander's destruction means you loose and that's fine, since it shapes game dynamics in an interesting way. Nevertheless, powerful Tier 3 air makes it a bit too easy to win with one surgical strike.

The other is experimental units. They are you usual sort of gargantuan over the top war machines, like huge tracked battleship-thing with a factory on it's deck or a massive flying saucer a'la the Independence Day, death ray included. They are usefull and serve to make the game more spectacular, to make it more dynamic while players progress up the tech tree and get more powerful defences and to make it a bit less exclusively about hundreds upon hundreds of units. This, they do very well. However, manufacturing them requires a lot of time and a LOT of resources, so they don't feature prominently in most multiplayer games. And that's good, because GPG have not payed to much attention to their ballance. Some are simply way to cheap resource-wise and build time-wise for their strenght and usefulness. However, due to their end-game status, they tend not to spoil the vast majority of matches.


Unit balance seems terribly skewed. My units get destroyed by enemy turrets with 1-2 shots, but my commander unit can walk in an wreak havoc and then just walk away and auto heal.
That's not skewed. Commander has to be tough. And while you retreated to heal any sane player would at least reclaim the ruins and wrecks and rebuild the damage you did, for the cost of you commander's valuable hp, rendering it vulnerable and out of action for some time.
Turrets are powerful, otherwise they would be meaningless when confronted with the number of units players throw at each other. Defensive structures in this RTS can actually defend stuff. However, you could have destroyed them easily with
1)artilery, mobile or stationary
2)mobile shields
3)mobile stealth in case of Cybrans
4)air
5)stationary or mobile missile launchers
6)cripple it by taking out his radar
7)cripple his radar by taking out his power gens

The list goes on :cool:

The bottom line is, I dearly like this game- it's my favourite RTS still, although I don't play it anymore. It's very easy to learn, but hugely difficult to master. It seems to be just a simple affair of spamming units, but it ceases to be once you begin see the possibilities. It's not mainstream by any means, and most people will not like it.
 

Ion Flux

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Okay, I figured that there was more to this game. I confess that I do like the idea of powerful turrets, but I found that mobile arty would get destroyed by them just as easily as any other units. Also, my "air superiority" fighters get chewed to pieces very quickly by enemy fighters, so they seem vastly underpowered. I honestly appreciate a good challenge, but my first impression was one of imbalance. I'll try to micro a bit better and see if that helps.
 

Kaiserin

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I remember spamming power stations. And then spamming more power stations.
I can't imagine you won very many multiplayer games at that rate...
 

Herbert West

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Ion Flux said:
Okay, I figured that there was more to this game. I confess that I do like the idea of powerful turrets, but I found that mobile arty would get destroyed by them just as easily as any other units. Also, my "air superiority" fighters get chewed to pieces very quickly by enemy fighters, so they seem vastly underpowered. I honestly appreciate a good challenge, but my first impression was one of imbalance. I'll try to micro a bit better and see if that helps.

There's a big difference in durability firepower and range between Tier 1, 2 and 3 units.

T1 air is very fragile and will be beaten by T2 easily, whereas T3 will assrape it all the way to hell. Air defences of apropriate tech are deadly to air units of the coresponding tech level, even more than point defences are to land units.

As for turrets... T1 mobile artilery outranges T1 turrets. T2 turrets outrange T1 arty, T2 mobile missile launchers outrange T2 turrets, etc etc... The same holds for long range weapons and poit defences of all tech levels and all factions. Likewise, the ways to counter that are manifold.

I would encourage you to watch some expert replays. Go to http://gamereplays.org and search for replays of players like Sir_Loui, Pink, Brainsteel_Inc, TAG_Rock, TheLittleOne, BlueScreenISU, mephistophile_ua. 1vs1 are the best. There are some extensive guides on that portal, most of which is helpful.
Also, visit http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page- this is a competent source of info about the units mainly, but also has some other shit, some of which is shit :P

Another thing! Do you play Supreme Commander Forged Alliance or the vanilla SupCom?
 
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

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ooo, Supreme Commander! I had fun with this one even though I really, really sucked at it. As Herbert mentioned, economy management is a huge component of the game, and I was just never quite able to get the hang of it. That said, I did play a number of marathon 3v3 online games that lasted 4+ hours each. It's a remarkably deep game and it's full possibilities aren't immediately apparent until you've got two teams that are each heavily fortified with full Tier 3 tech. Cracking open an enemy base at that point is a huge achievement, and really takes careful planning and *gasp* strategy. At any rate, a really fun game that I should pick up the expansion for.
 

thesheeep

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Is the community still active?
I'm thinking about buying the whole package (which should be quite cheap by now)... Which I wouldn't if there was no one to play against ;)

Also, how does the matchmaking system work?
It should be obvious that I wouldn't stand a chance against any pro in that game ;)
 

Herbert West

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Nov 19, 2007
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Don't buy the vanilla game. Just get Forged Alliance since it's a standalone product. As far as I'm aware, most people play FA online.

Furthermore, it changes the game quite a bit. Turtling is no longer as viable a strategy as it was pre-expansion. Tweaked resource system makes fighting for map control very important.

Matmaking is quite ok actually. I've never had any reason to complain about it. Sometimes you get to fight with players of higher skill level but that's ok. You can learn a lot just by carefuly watching replays of your defeats.
 

TheWesDude

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if you only get FA and dont get vanillia SC, you cannot use any of the original 3 factions online.

in single player, you can use 3 factions in vanillia, or if you only get FA you can use all 4 factions


in vanillia, its much slower. mass + power and THEN you start factories... in FA, its factories and then mass + power... much faster.

i have tried 2 games of FA online, and well... they dont last more than 5-10 mins.

i hate playing online now... i only play SP games vs the numerous custom AI packages available out there.

it really is a high quality RTS, much better than anything out there.

====================
1. Unit balance seems terribly skewed. My units get destroyed by enemy turrets with 1-2 shots, but my commander unit can walk in an wreak havoc and then just walk away and auto heal.
=====================

awww, defensive structures that are worth a damn? how dare they make them useful! defensive structures should be worthless!!!!

stfu, defensive structures are actually a large part of what i judge RTSes by. if they are worthless, its not going to be a great RTS because you cant defend your base without lots of units.

====================
Lots of weird omissions from TA too, like different types of constructor, ability to reclaim/ressurect ship wrecks, etc.
====================

are you joking? thats one of the biggest strategy parts of SC and FA.. when units die on the battlefield if they take enough damage, they are vaporized. if they do not take excessive damage, they crash/explode as a wreck that you CAN reclaim as mass.

you obviously did not spend much time on this game.



there is a ton of strategy in this game. if you dont see it, then you are not looking. this is not a simple RTS, it has much more depth than anything else out there.

you can play a game and win it in 5-15 mins, or if you turtle, you can play for 1-3 hours. and in FA you can turtle. you can build shields and have engies set to "repair" shields and when the shield takes damage, they will repair the shield portion thus making them much more worthwhile. and if you are playing a repair station faction, you can dedicate them to repairing the shield without engies.
 

Ion Flux

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Project: Eternity
I like this game now. I totally get it. I'm enjoying the increased damage factor because it obviously forces you to be very careful and methodical about your attacks. Also, the bland art design is just on the demo level I played. There is a small skirmish map too that looks much better.

TheWesDude, on the other hand, is kind of a dick. :)
 

TheWesDude

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i like the setons clutch map and hte 8 player in a circle arctic map

im only a dick to those who are idiots. you stated completely incorrect information which could prejudice people against the game on wrong information.

who is more of the dick? the one who makes a grossly wrong statement, or the one who corrects the first person?
 

Kaiserin

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the one who makes a grossly wrong statement, or the one who corrects the first person?
The one who corrects the person who made the grossly wrong statement after they conceded it could be flawed. :|
 

Ion Flux

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TheWesDude said:
im only a dick to those who are idiots. you stated completely incorrect information which could prejudice people against the game on wrong information.

who is more of the dick? the one who makes a grossly wrong statement, or the one who corrects the first person?

It's no biggie. If you read my post, I was just stating the fact that the game made a bad first impression on me, and I wanted to see if it was worth sinking any more time into it. Turns out it was. I actually think I'm a dick for calling you a dick if it makes you feel any better.
 

Ryuken

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It would have been great if the demo got updated as well because GPG did put a lot of effort in fixing things (at least the first four months) and expanding the UI post-release.

thesheeep said:
Is the community still active?
I'm thinking about buying the whole package (which should be quite cheap by now)... Which I wouldn't if there was no one to play against ;)

Also, how does the matchmaking system work?
It should be obvious that I wouldn't stand a chance against any pro in that game ;)
There are still players around, around 500-600 online each night I think, with a bit more in the weekend as usual. But the ones who have left are mostly waiting for a promised patch which should solve the remaining balance issues in Forged Alliance (T3 air dominance in bigger games for example) and exploits, rather small stuff though. A second addon was in the works for some time, called The Experimentals, but it got canned. Maybe we'll see some of that work in the patch as free units but that's wishful thinking from my part. The 'big patch' is in limbo though, nobody knows what's really going on, is THQ QA working on it or is GPG waiting with it until Demigod is launched?

Gamereplays.org have a mentoring program if you want to take it online, game can be pretty ruthless. The official forums are also a good way to know the peculiarities of the game.

Matchmaking is decent with GPGnet but some things are broken, like parts of the Vault (mods, maps, you can find nearly everything on it), ranked 2vs2 matchmaking putting you in random spots on the map and some stats. Hamachi is possible as well but you need to find people yourself for that.

If you do buy SupCom: Gold (= best version, has vanilla SupCom + Forged Alliance so you can play with all races on GPGnet, also, FA really is the way to play, vanilla is more turtling than anything else) then don't update your game through GPGnet as it will only download/install incremental patches (and there have been loads of updates, especially for vanilla SupCom and GPGnet itself). Get the whole shebang of full patches here, compiled it myself (I'm Togra on GR, Ryuken on GPGnet though). GPGnet might need fresher updates though.

Also, get a good PC for this. :)
 

TheWesDude

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my biggest complaint about sup com is how it handles AI and its thread timing.

the more units you get out there, the more their individual AI ticks happen.

when you start getting into some custom AI packages, they suck up a lot of ticks. and it slows the game pretty bad.

3 AI + me last night, when the game-timer had hit 1 hr, i had spent about 1.5 real hours playing the game.

TL : DR =
AI should have used multi-core rather than everything in 1 proccess, really hurt the game imo.
 

Ryuken

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Yeah, that's one of the reasons I got a new PC with a Quadcore CPU, Vista64bit and 4GB Ram. Now only the games on 80x80km maps with 7 AI opponents are slowing down after an hour or so with most settings on max. Lovely sights though. :)

Also remember that the standard AIs aren't that optimised (and good) either (both in vanilla and FA), it's better to get some custom AIs straight away like Sorian's AI, skirmish games run faster that way and are more challenging. You have to disable these AIs though if you want to play ranked online I think (or if you play with people who don't have this mod installed).
 

nomask7

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I've only played Forged Alliance. It's very similar to Total Annihilation. It's real RTS and requires a brain, unlike the numerous RPS's (rock-paper-scissors), such as Starcraft, that some people seem to prefer to FA and TA. Moving away from that braindead system was innovative when TA came out, and finally TA has a worthy sequel.

edit: Jesus. I didn't notice this was such an old thread.
 

snoek

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I think it's a great game, there are lots of viable ways to go, you can really specialize your army and it's not rock/paper/scissors. it feels like a real conflict.
About the superweapons: the giant UFO and the giant spider-thingy are awesome!!
 

1eyedking

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nomask7 said:
I've only played Forged Alliance. It's very similar to Total Annihilation. It's real RTS and requires a brain, unlike the numerous RPS's (rock-paper-scissors), such as Starcraft, that some people seem to prefer to FA and TA. Moving away from that braindead system was innovative when TA came out, and finally TA has a worthy sequel.

edit: Jesus. I didn't notice this was such an old thread.
Real RTS games that require brains don't use a rock-paper-scissors system? Moreover, StarCraft's actually one of them?

This post really made my head hurt.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Without reading this thread because, well, fuck that, supcom is a good game IF you're playing with the expansion and IF you're playing with the Sorian AI mod.

If you've got both of those things going, it can be a great time.
 

Cabazone

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Sup com + fa is actualy the most awesome multiplayer str. It's funny to see how the codex, elitist in rpg, sometime become the usual casual in other type of games.
 

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