Vapourware Tactical cRPGs

[mondblut]

How would you guys rate these "sample parties" from the manual:

Sample Party 1:
1 Dwarf Ranger

LOL. This one hits level cap about midway into character generation.

Unlike the Forgotten Realms goldboxes, where demihumans might just as well not exist, Dragonlance has somewhat liberal racial level limits, but for a game where you can go all the way to level 40 (and will casually go past 20), they still cripple demihumans. So, Silv elves only work as clerics, rangers and mages, Qual elves same plus thieves; half elves clerics and thieves only, both dwarves only function as fighters and kenders as thieves. Anything else is shooting your party in the foot.

Either way, you need to cover both red and white magic, you need a knight to swing those dragonlances; and for one cleric Mishakal is a given; a secondary might just as well pick Kiri-Jolith for a THAC0 bonus and multi with something else. Fighers are, as always, useless, get knights and rangers (protection from fire ftw) instead. Paladin is unneeded either, knight works just fine. Thief, well, as useless as ever, but if you feel your Dragonlance experience absolutely needs a kender to be authentic, that's how he fits in. Mix with a levelcapped cleric for some minor usefulness.

>How high should you level a fighter, ie, can they increase attack rate beyond +1/2 at lvl7 and +1/2 at lvl13? I ask because if ApR stops increasing after 13, you might as well multi-class right?

They can't, but you don't use fighters, you use rangers (they are 8 and 14 + some mighty useful druidic crap + can cast mage spells while wearing armor - or so I think). They still do improve their THAC0 faster than non-warriors and get more hp per level (3 or 2 for rangers), so grinding them further may still be of use.

(oh... and indeed, DQK has no dualclassing other than 'knight new order' that's why Pools of Darkness is so much better :D )

 

[Metro]

I never played with multi-class characters. Not sure why.

 

[octavius]

They can't, but you don't use fighters, you use rangers (they are 8 and 14 + some mighty useful druidic crap + can cast mage spells while wearing armor - or so I think). They still do improve their THAC0 faster than non-warriors and get more hp per level (3 or 2 for rangers),

But Rangers can't be multi-classed with Mage, and a Fighter/Red Mage is the most powerful character in DQK, IMO.

 

[mondblut]

They can't, but you don't use fighters, you use rangers (they are 8 and 14 + some mighty useful druidic crap + can cast mage spells while wearing armor - or so I think). They still do improve their THAC0 faster than non-warriors and get more hp per level (3 or 2 for rangers),

But Rangers can't be multi-classed with Mage, and a Fighter/Red Mage is the most powerful character in DQK, IMO.

Yeah, I forgot dualclassing was dumbed down out from DL goldboxes. Ranger>mage dualclasses FTW.

 

[Zetor]

(insert "lol AD&D first edition" comment here)

 

[octavius]

Demihumans are definitely more useful in the Krynn games than in the Forgotten Realms games, where the only useful demihumans are Dwarven or Half-Elven Fighter/Thieves.
As for armour, multi-classed elves can cast spells while wearing plate. In the FR games this arbitrary rule is especially silly since a Human dualed Fighter/Mage can't cast spells while wearing armour, while a multi-classed Elf Fighter/Mage can.

My pet peeve with the Gold Box games are the often silly and inconsistent rules, especially when it comes to who can use Wands, and how spells like Dispel Magic, Mirror Image and Haste work.

 

[Jaesun]

In some of the gold box games there is some stuff if you have a female character in your party.

 

[mondblut]

lol Goldbox AD&D is more different than IE AD&D2 than I thought... females are limited to 18/50 percentile str, and that's it. I see no advantages in selecting female gender, are there any in DQK?

Goldbox are AD&D1. Females, they slip an occasional female quest or event in some of the games, beats me if DQK has any. You can always make your non-warriors female, they are capped at the same 18 (humans, anyway)

And in IE games you would never wear armor, even elven which didn't negate spellcasting, because spells and bracers bring your AC lower than physical armor ever could, even at the low levels.

That's because in IE the plusses don't stack. In Goldboxes, they do. +5 shield, +5 helm, +5 ring, +5 cloak and +5 plate make pretty badass AC, making that plate 4 points better than bracers of AC2.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah just make a female magic user.

Also if you are making all your characters with 18 stats, you are a retard.

 

[octavius]

My DQK party only has one single-classed character, Sturm (Solamnic from Chronicles) The Pally.

What? A Paladin instead of a Knight? Knights are one of the archetypes in the Dragonlance universe, while the paladins seem to have been a late addition to the games. I certainly don't recall a single mention of any paladins in the books (only Paladine).
Don't forget a Knight has leadership bonus which allows controling NPCs and Knights can eventually cast lvl 7 clerical spells. Having a Knight with the Heal and Resurrection spell can be a life saver. Knights are also the only ones who can use Solamnic Plate, which is a non-magical plate that protects as well as Plate +2 or +3.

Speaking of armour and AC, as mondblut mentioned all the magical equipment stack with each other, except if you are wearing magical armour. This means for all classes, even fighter types, Bracers + magical Helmets, Belts, Cloaks, Rings and Codpieces will give a better AC than magical Plate, as well as better saving throws and movement rate. The only AC enhancing item that works with magical armour is the Cloak of Displacement. EDIT: and magical shields.

 

[octavius]

If you like Octavius's suggestion to try MMII SSUG is based on that, but with a few more tactical options.

Disclaimer: I'm the dev and this is a shameless plug.

Just bought the game, but since I play games chronologically it may take me some years before I actually play it.

 

[octavius]

Also 5 mins into DQK and I face THREE dragons... dead.

Didn't Laurelasselanta give you any Dragonlances?
I know I started with at least one when importing my party from Death Knights.
The way Dragonlances work, doing they wielder's current HP in damage to dragons, is the best reason to have some single class fighter types since they get more HP than the multi-class characters.

 

[hoverdog]

TACTICOOL SCREENSAVER.

Yeah, much better than constant clicking ad nauseam. Some degree of autonomy is good, because it would be confusing to have to assign each single command (click) to each of 8 members of your party in the heat of battle, assuming you don't use Pause cheat, which is there only for people, who cannot into RTS games. It is not the Diablo clone and isn't meant to be played that way.

If you really care to know, what is the big idea behind this, listen to Chris himself here .

So it is better to have the game play itself than to actually have the player use his brain cells to win battles?


dannyfx1 confirmed as uber moron.

 

[Jaesun]

His posts pretty much speak for themselves.

 

[hoverdog]

>dungeon siege
>rts

 

[octavius]

Haste doubles number of attacks and movement rate. Not sure if old age really kicks in, as I try to use Haste sparingly.

Thieves are not essential in DQK, I think, but I like to have a Kender in the party and the Cleric/Thief is the best class for Kender. I'm also a big fan of backstabbing, but there are less targets for it in the high level games. In Curse of the Azure Bonds I wished I had several Fighter/Thieves when fighting the magic resistant drows.

I strongly disagree on thieves being not all that necessary in the IE games. The ability to scout, detect traps, disarm traps, pick lock, dispel illusions and backstab is IMO extremely useful in the IE games. In Icewind Dale my Fighter/Thief was always the one with the highest kill for most of the game.

 

[octavius]

I said they weren't "all that necessary", I didn't say they served no utility or weren't highly effective when used well. Don't know how you can strongly disagree with such a reasonable statement. But if your fighter/thief had the highest killcount in IWD, you mustn't have been using your fighter/mages very well, that's for sure.

I prefer to think I'm using my Fighter/Thief very well.
But I see your point. Depending on playing style, thieves may not be "all that necessary". But for my style - Iron Man light, and resting only once per day/once per area/if almost dead - a good Fighter/Thief is indeed necessary, and mages use their spells sparingly.
Many of my F/T's kills come from chunking unsuspecting enemies as an opening move to a battle.

 

[mondblut]

So how does Haste work, I guess my Knight should be getting max 4 ApR but each casting makes him age by a year... How does age work in Goldbox, do you get to 75 as human and just keel over or something?

They are supposed to, give or take few years. Many of Goldbox games didn't seriously consider the possibility though (FRUA, for one), so it might be bugged and not fire. I still wouldn't bet on it, however.

Pools of Darkness had some stores selling the potions of youth, but I don't remember if DQK had any. So, don't overdo on Haste until you know how it turns out in the end and/or have a supply of the potions.

...Heh, in the original goldbox Neverwinter Nights every oldtime guy was several thousands years old (all humans, of course, dualclasses trumped over racial limit-crippled multiclasses). There, age did not matter.

 

[Charles-cgr]

If you like Octavius's suggestion to try MMII SSUG is based on that, but with a few more tactical options.

Disclaimer: I'm the dev and this is a shameless plug.

Just bought the game, but since I play games chronologically it may take me some years before I actually play it.

Thanks for the support

I hope you like it when you come around to it.

 

[octavius]

I've soloed IWD separately with a fighter/thief and fighter/mage, which means I can use them both very well, and I can tell you the mage variant is the more effective killer, which becomes even more apparent in Heart of Fury mode.
This is true of BG1+BG2 also.

I soloed IWD with a Fighter/Mage/Thief myself, but only reached halfway through Trials of the Luremaster.
Never saw the point of Heart of Fury mode, though.

Unfortunately there aren't very many situations in IWD where this can even noticeably impact a battle, due to encounter design which favors hordes over deadly single foes.

It's more effective in Baldur's Gate, whose less numerous monster tend to wander more. Very effective against the Kobold Commandos, since their fire arrows are more danagerous to a tank with -10 AC then their swords are to a lightly armoured thief. So my thief character in Baldur's Gate usually takes care of most of the kobold commandos before they can even shoot.

 

[Mother Russia]

@OP

Realms of Arkania series.

I also second Final Fantasy Tactics. It's not like nearly any other jrpg. It's all about battles with good story. It's dark, with demons and shit. Only the sprites are weeabo, but the gameplay will make you forget them.

 

[Severian Silk]

I can't play Goldbox games because FPP exploration sucks in old games.

:shrug:

 

[The Round Peg]

Jagged Alliance 2 is actually a tactical RPG. A really good one.

 

[mondblut]

Speaking of armour and AC, as mondblut mentioned all the magical equipment stack with each other, except if you are wearing magical armour. This means for all classes, even fighter types, Bracers + magical Helmets, Belts, Cloaks, Rings and Codpieces will give a better AC than magical Plate, as well as better saving throws and movement rate. The only AC enhancing item that works with magical armour is the Cloak of Displacement. EDIT: and magical shields.

Eh, that's not exactly what I mentioned, but you are apparently closer to truth. Helmets and shields stack just fine with armor. Rings and cloaks of protection don't, as I just checked, only with bracers. So it's either armor + shield + helmet (+ cloak of dis), or bracers + shield + helmet + ring + cloak.

 

[octavius]

Speaking of armour and AC, as mondblut mentioned all the magical equipment stack with each other, except if you are wearing magical armour. This means for all classes, even fighter types, Bracers + magical Helmets, Belts, Cloaks, Rings and Codpieces will give a better AC than magical Plate, as well as better saving throws and movement rate. The only AC enhancing item that works with magical armour is the Cloak of Displacement. EDIT: and magical shields.

Eh, that's not exactly what I mentioned, but you are apparently closer to truth. Helmets and shields stack just fine with armor. Rings and cloaks of protection don't, as I just checked, only with bracers. So it's either armor + shield + helmet (+ cloak of dis), or bracers + shield + helmet + ring + cloak.

+ Belts.
So if you have access to all the stuff, like in Treasures of the Savage Frontier, Bracers are better than Plate for the whole party.