From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[PorkyThePaladin]

I am using the buckler. And I know about the animations, I have no trouble parrying most enemies, but I just cannot parry the quick attacks of these 2. They come so fast, that by the time I see the attack start, if I hit E right away, it's already too late, and the parry animation never starts, I just get hit.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Hmm you might have to try to pre-empt it. The faster attacks are a bit harder to parry.

 

[L'Montes]

I looked at the Lobos Parry the World playthrough for that part because I was curious. Probably not the satisfying answer you were looking for:

Footage for that area is around 1 hour 18 minutes.

As an aside, I thought it was amusing in context that the Wikia page's choice of header image for Parry/Riposte is a Hollow Thief getting riposted:
http://darksouls.wikia.com/wiki/Parry_and_Riposte

 

[Humppaleka]

Yeah, Capra demon is considered to be one of the few boss fights that's absolute, unfair, bullshit.
Good thing there's an exploit where you can just throw something like 50 black fire bombs to kill it without having to step into the goat's rape closet.

Wat. Never had any problems. First time I went at it beat it at third try or something.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

True, once you work out the secret of running up the stairs and murdering the dogs first it becomes a lot easier. Still an crappy match up though. Maybe its just because I really hate dog type enemies in souls games.

 

[sullynathan]

I looked at the Lobos Parry the World playthrough for that part because I was curious. Probably not the satisfying answer you were looking for:

off topic, but I've been watching this guy recently because he played DMC, man is he balding now compared to the video you posted.

 

[Silva]

Capra Demon doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it. I can't remember a more bullshitty boss in the whole series ( maybe that's because I've forgotten most of my DS2 playthrough though).

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Went through 4 bosses (some were mini-bosses) the last 2 days. Killed that ugly headless thing below the armorsmith in the Undead Parish, by strafe-rolling to its back. Then killed the Black Knight with the glaive in the Darkroot Basin by parrying/countering. Did it the same way with Havel. Yesterday took out the Capra Demon by rolling. That is probably the single most annoying boss fight so far, that room is tiny, no space no roll, camera is blocked, his dogs trap you against walls, and his swords cover the whole room. It's like a meat-grinder with broken furniture to stub your toes on. Took like 20 tries. Still triggered.

Yeah, Capra demon is considered to be one of the few boss fights that's absolute, unfair, bullshit.
Good thing there's an exploit where you can just throw something like 50 black fire bombs to kill it without having to step into the goat's rape closet.

Capra Demon doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it. I can't remember a more bullshitty boss in the whole series ( maybe that's because I've forgotten most of my DS2 playthrough though).

I defeated the Capra Demon on my second try in my first playthrough of Dark Souls and on my first try in my second playthrough. No summoned help, either.

 

[toro]

I beat Capra Demon before I even saw him. I simply poked him with my dick through the fog gate. Fucking noobs.

 

[praetor]

git gud, fagit. i beat Capra Demon before DS1 was even made on my 0th try. i was the one in Miyazaki's mind who showed him how to beat it!

 

[Wunderbar]

Capra Demon doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it. I can't remember a more bullshitty boss in the whole series ( maybe that's because I've forgotten most of my DS2 playthrough though).

you forgot Bed of chaos?

 

[Jezal_k23]

I think Capra can't qualify for the 5 worst in the series. There's bed of chaos, obviously, and there's also the total gimmick bosses from DS3 like wolnir, deacons of the deep, greatwood, yhorm, wyvern. I consider all of these worse, so Capra can't make the worst 5. DS2 bosses are actually not awful, I don't remember if there would be one to make the top 5 worst, their problem is different: they feel inconsequential and boring, especially in the early game, save for some exceptions, but I don't remember them being outright awful, just boring. Look at dragonrider for example. Inconsequential, boring, but not awful.

 

[Silva]

The problem with Capra is that it IS a gimmick boss disguised as a normal one. Where the gimmick is running to the stairs and killing the dogs first. Further, the place is awfully small just because and you can't even have a good look on the boss and it's moveset (except after a bunch of deaths). All that adds up to something that feels very cheap, even moreso than pure gimmick bosses.

I can't honestly say if it's better than Bed of Chaos. Both are awful to me.

 

[L'Montes]

I consider all of these worse, so Capra can't make the worst 5.

Well, I framed it as "my least favorite" fights in the series, and imho. You're entitled to your own opinion of course.

I don't mind gimmick fights personally. If every boss is an aggressive in-your-face Artorias/Fume-type boss, then it becomes effectively uninteresting. Or at least, I prefer the game not be an exercise of will-they-or-won't-they roll-catch you this time?

Gimmick fights or dull/easy ones can feel bad in the sense of challenge, but that has more to do with putting all the "challenge" in figuring out the gimmick the first time around. It doesn't bear repeating as well, which isn't necessarily a sin. It feels like Dark Souls 2 was possibly the only entry that gave much thought to the repetition/replay factor anyhow.

Souls does some things better than others to put it mildly, so my largest issues with fights tend to be more focused on issues with in-game mechanics than boredom in particular. With Bed of Chaos (my least favorite), it combines what's arguably the worst part of Souls with a boss: platforming. Your character can land both of their armor-clad feet on a seemingly flat branch-path and the game handles it like bare feet on a greased metal pole to launch you into the abyss.

I feel like the AI/mechanics of the game isn't tooled well for multiple opponents either, this has two effects in my opinion. One is that many encounters are broken in co-op, and the AI shortcomings make it much easier than a helping hand alone probably should.

The other is making boss encounters with multiple certain enemy types mechanically unsatisfying, unfair, awkward, etc. Capra combines a claustrophobic setting with multiple relatively fast/erratic opponents that engage nearly immediately. A large part of the difficulty in the fight has less to do with Capra's moveset, but rather with the lack of value in the lock-on in that situation (it will likely actively sabotage the fight to use it) and jankiness of both camera and dog-movement in the small area. All that to say, it's one of my least favorites because the difficulty seems to have a lot more to do with the game engine and the things it handles poorly than difficulty within the context of the fight itself.

I wouldn't claim Prowling Magus or Deacons are great bosses either, but they're not encounters where you're fighting the game's engine... just easy ones imho.

 

[praetor]

my main problem with gimmick bosses (imo DeS suffers the most from it) is they're a "one time deal", i.e. even when the gimmick is cool and well done, it has 0 replay value

 

[L'Montes]

my main problem with gimmick bosses (imo DeS suffers the most from it) is they're a "one time deal", i.e. even when the gimmick is cool and well done, it has 0 replay value

That I can understand. Games with good replay seem rare a lot of the time these days. Games that are mostly about story/exploration or rely on a twist can be significantly weaker on replay as well.

I wouldn't like the souls series as much as I do if I hadn't been able to replay them with different builds and get different experiences - that's the chief draw of the series to me, not some specific story element or the PvP (or whatever). However, I feel like sometimes the metric for "boring" or too easy is predicated on the path of least resistance as well (e.g. - Ceaseless is boring because I can instantly kill him, Deacons are easy because I bring a greatsword and swing wildly). To me personally, changes in various entries that reduced build variety/viability were larger hits to the overall experience than particular bosses. These interact somewhat.

It would be reasonable to say (I think) that you can put together a viable/early archer/sorcerer/insert-type-here in Dark Souls 1 pretty quickly for example. This allows you, very quickly, to alter the way you're approaching bosses/content. Dark Souls 3 hamstrings certain build types so that you're unlikely to be able to use something like sorcery or archery as anything more than an adjunct till later in the game - they game is bluntly informing you that smashing things with a hunk of metal is your expected path. Similarly, you can do some gimmicky builds in Bloodborne later on, but for most of the game you'll be dodge-and-punishing the bosses in a nearly identical way. It hurts the replay element of those games in a fashion more than the gimmicks do (imho anyway).

There are ways to do them better. I liked that Astraea (who is essentially a gimmick/irregular fight in Demon's) had more than one way to complete the fight at least. The Dragon God is essentially a very boring fight by the 2nd time, contrasting that somewhat. Bed of Chaos is the worst of all possible worlds I guess - the gimmick isn't even fun the first time, your build doesn't matter at all, and the game engine handles the mechanic on which the fight relies... poorly at best.

It may just be that they care more about that single playthrough experience, and just assume the game gets shelved after that (how most people treat games as I understand it, if they finish them at all). So, a poorly executed (or only-fun-once) gimmick makes sense on the designers' end for creating a varied single playthrough, but wears on repeat-players. I feel like consigning the "NG+ changes things" element of DS2 to the rubbish bin says something about how much they care about the replayer's experience too.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Whilst I don't like some changes NG+ bring in Dark Souls 2, I do appreciate that they did they do make subsequent runs more interesting, and on top of that there's a weapon that rewards you for playing from repeated cycles (Nil Greatsword). The Soul Vessels basically gives you a chance to try a new build every time you start a new cycle too, so you can basically get to play with all of the toys you get in NG.

That said, they also screwed up their own system by making it such a grind to get new materials to upgrade the weapons you want to play with in your new run, and if you want to skip to Drangleic Castle you have to collect several million souls in your current run, which means more grinding.

It's as if for every good idea they have in DS2, they come up with 2 bad ideas that detract from the experience. Which is a pity, because there's a really good game buried in there and the core mechanics are solid, it's just buried underneath a mound of stupid. Which is why many are quick to call it a bad game.

 

[L'Montes]

Its as if for every good idea they have in DS2, they come up with 2 bad ideas that detract from the experience. Which is a pity, because there's a really good game buried in their and the core mechanics are solid, its just buried underneath a mound of stupid. Which is why many are quick to call it a bad game.

Agreed. It's not my favorite souls game, but I wish they'd refined/retained some of the better mechanics.

 

[praetor]

well, "the grind" is real in all of the Souls titles. pre-SotFS DaS2 was tied worst because of some retarded shit that made you abuse the engine to farm (like the "real" Aurous set and the Shadow set), the tie being with DeS because of the obnoxious bladestone, and DS1 with the fucking slabs (all of them) isn't far behind.

you think DS2 is the worst as far as farming upgrade materials goes, because it has the most gear, and the most useful gear by a wide margin so you really want to upgrade everything (and particularly, as you note, if you plan to respec in NG+ and use different shit), but it's not all that different, really. it's annoying to farm the ascetics so you can farm materials, but considering you're guaranteed a nice chunk of high level materials with every run, i'd argue it's less obnoxious than DaS1 or DeS (if we restrict the "grinding" argument just to upgrade materials), and SotFS gets rid of some of that most retarded shit from vanilla...

 

[Deflowerer]

Only autists grind.

 

[Silva]

The only game I remember actually having to grind was DS2. In all others it was fairly easy to acquire materials to carry at least one weapon to max level.

 

[praetor]

what?! in DS2 you can get very, very easily 4 guaranteed tittie slabs (i.e. no grinding) by the time you reach Drangleic castle (with a total guaranteed of at least 10). one is in the goddamned first real level of the game! chunks are aplenty, and if you don't have at least one +10 weapon by the time you finish Tseldora without a second of farming, you're doing something seriously wrong.

do you know how many guaranteed slabs you get in DS1 by midgame? 1. and there are only 3 guaranteed in the whole game.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

what?! in DS2 you can get very, very easily 4 guaranteed tittie slabs (i.e. no grinding) by the time you reach Drangleic castle (with a total guaranteed of at least 10). one is in the goddamned first real level of the game! chunks are aplenty, and if you don't have at least one +10 weapon by the time you finish Tseldora without a second of farming, you're doing something seriously wrong.

do you know how many guaranteed slabs you get in DS1 by midgame? 1. and there are only 3 guaranteed in the whole game.

Chunks are only aplenty if you beat the game, and they cost 6k each. You need 6 to level up a weapon. Slabs aren't a problem, chunks are.
Petrified Dragon Bones and Twinklings are a bitch to find and farm, and if you want to try a shiny boss weapon on higher new game cycles you pretty much need to get it to +5 so it deals decent damage.

In DS1 you need 10 demon titanite to level up a boss weapon, and its relatively easy to get; the respawnable titanite demon in lost izalith drops 2 at a time 100% of the time. 5 kills gives you a maxed out boss weapon.

In DS2 you need 15 dragon bones to level up a weapon. There is no enemy in the game that has a guaranteed drop rate, which means that you have to grind them for a very long time, and you'll probably only get one or two before despawning them. In order to keep farming you have to join a covenant (which makes them harder) or burn an aesthetic (which consumes a rare resource AND makes them harder).
You objectively have to grind more in DS2 in order to get a decent amount of boss weapon upgrade materials.

Not to mention that DS1 tells you your item discovery; DS2, for whatever reason, doesn't. Which means you have no idea how effective your farming gear is.

DS1 just handles farming better. You get more information and the drop rates aren't as low.
It is true that the Dark Souls games in general have a bit of farming for materials or weapons, but in DS2 it feels like a complete grind. I don't know how they handled it in DS3, but its certainly more tedious than DS1.

 

[Arnust]

The thing is, in Ds2 the "grind" is incredibly easy out of a minuscule set of unique drops from non respawning, rare NPC's. Just pop Ascetics near to the boss of choice, or use your shiny new two ring slots to get soul yield boost rings, or armor pieces, ooor even weapons.

I feel like everyone complaining about DS2 grinding hasn't ever farmed for the Balder Swag Sword in 1, or DeS' Pure Bladestone (now that one I gave up on hour two).

The problem with this common practice for when it comes to Souls is that lethality is way too high for any longer span of farming to not be at least rather unpleasant. And even if it isn't, it's still uncomfortable as hell to do repetitive tasks like it, as the character always moves a bit too slow, the target is a bit too far, the dudes in the way are a bit too tough.

Honestly, this is one of the things the competition generally has over From. Each on their own way.

 

[praetor]

what?! in DS2 you can get very, very easily 4 guaranteed tittie slabs (i.e. no grinding) by the time you reach Drangleic castle (with a total guaranteed of at least 10). one is in the goddamned first real level of the game! chunks are aplenty, and if you don't have at least one +10 weapon by the time you finish Tseldora without a second of farming, you're doing something seriously wrong.

do you know how many guaranteed slabs you get in DS1 by midgame? 1. and there are only 3 guaranteed in the whole game.

Chunks are only aplenty if you beat the game, and they cost 6k each. You need 6 to level up a weapon. Slabs aren't a problem, chunks are.
Petrified Dragon Bones and Twinklings are a bitch to find and farm, and if you want to try a shiny boss weapon on higher new game cycles you pretty much need to get it to +5 so it deals decent damage.

In DS1 you need 10 demon titanite to level up a boss weapon, and its relatively easy to get; the respawnable titanite demon in lost izalith drops 2 at a time 100% of the time. 5 kills gives you a maxed out boss weapon.

In DS2 you need 15 dragon bones to level up a weapon. There is no enemy in the game that has a guaranteed drop rate, which means that you have to grind them for a very long time, and you'll probably only get one or two before despawning them. In order to keep farming you have to join a covenant (which makes them harder) or burn an aesthetic (which consumes a rare resource AND makes them harder).
You objectively have to grind more in DS2 in order to get a decent amount of boss weapon upgrade materials.

Not to mention that DS1 tells you your item discovery; DS2, for whatever reason, doesn't. Which means you have no idea how effective your farming gear is.

DS1 just handles farming better. You get more information and the drop rates aren't as low.
It is true that the Dark Souls games in general have a bit of farming for materials or weapons, but in DS2 it feels like a complete grind. I don't know how they handled it in DS3, but its certainly more tedious than DS1.

yeah, no. ascetics are trivial to farm in the chasms. they drop like candies there. and once you beat darklurker, you don't even have to spend effigies to get there

PDBs are guaranteed drops from crystal lizards in the aerie (4-5, iirc), and the drakes there have a very high drop rate (borderline guaranteed). not to mention that you get a metric fuckton from chests and the like (33! not counting guaranteed drops and the 3 you can buy). that's pretty much 3 fully upgraded boss weapons guaranteed. and if you go to NG+ there's even more, lol

chunks are infinitely purchasable once you kill nashandra, but before that you have plenty of them to upgrade at least 2 weapons, and if you need more farming them is trivially easy and fairly quick.

DS1 drop rates aren't as low?! are you kidding me? have you ever farmed for a titainte slab in DS1? i guess not...

plus, most boss weapons are trash in DS1, so you'll rarely upgrade more than 2. similar story for twinklies. if DS2 had a similar number of good weapons as DS1 and no respec, nobody would've ever complained about material grinding in DS2