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The most elegant proof that FO3 is a better RPG than FO1

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HanoverF said:
Reminds me of those crummy proofs of god you might learn in a boring philosophy class.

Imagine a perfect fallout rpg. Doesn't it have better graphics than FO? Fallout 3 has better graphix than FO, therefor FO3 is a better rpg than FO.
Fallacy of affirming the consequent:

If A, then B
If B, then A

If a Fallout version is perfect, then it has the best graphics of all Fallout versions.
Fallout 3 has the best graphics of all Fallouts, therefore Fallout 3 is the perfect Fallout.
 

Keldorn

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I wanna play with a zoomed in tunnel vision view.... I wanna see the target and click on it, FAST AND CLOSE NOW !!!! WHIPPEEEE ! Heeeere I go, turning, weaving running and clicking, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

GREAT graphics.

Ooops, gotta go, here comes the next target !


It's a veritable hyper-active, hyper-mechanical, FP Clickfest, LOADED with megadoses of eye candy !

YEEEE HAAAaaaa !

Now THAT'S Roleplaying.
 

1eyedking

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skyway said:
F3 will have companions. They will be stupid mules though - they will be there just to shoot enemies and carry your stuff.
Weren't they too in Fallout 2? :D
 

Keldorn

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"Either you like the FPSization of Rpg's, or you were raped by FPS".


What's good about FPS clickfests with truckloads of eye candy, is that they make good soldier training excercises.
 

Müg

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Jasede said:
Oh shit, some people like RPGs for different reasons than we do! Call the police! The army! NASA!
Liking for different reasons is one thing, but liking them because they aren't isometric isn't exactly a reason.
 

Keldorn

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Lestat said:
Keldorn, you make it sound like FPS view and role-playing are mutually exclusive.

What happened to the number of games in the FO1/FO2/PS:T/Arcanum mode after Morrowind (with it's eye candy heavy, FP clickfest + recycled dialogue + no party based play) hit the scene ?

Not mutually exclusive imo, just unilaterally parasitic wrt the corporate based replication of trends.
 

Joe Krow

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Keldorn said:
"Either you like the FPSization of Rpg's, or you were raped by FPS".


What's good about FPS clickfests with truckloads of eye candy, is that they make good soldier training excercises.

I think what you really have a problem with is real time combat rather then the chosen perspective. Would Fallout have been a click fest if the combat was real time? Is Wizardry a clickfest? See the distinction? People get too hung up on these little debates and forget the intangibles. It's qualities like character dependence and progression, setting/lore, and intellectual challenge that make a game great. The rest are superficial design choices.
 

DefJam101

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(Look, I can do 'straw man' arguments as well!)

Joe Krow said:
Keldorn said:
"Either you like the FPSization of Rpg's, or you were raped by FPS".


What's good about FPS clickfests with truckloads of eye candy, is that they make good soldier training excercises.

I think what you really have a problem with is real time combat rather then the chosen perspective. Would Fallout have been a click fest if the combat was real time? Is Wizardry a clickfest? See the distinction? People get too hung up on these little debates and forget the intangibles. It's qualities like character dependence and progression, setting/lore, and intellectual challenge that make a game great. The rest are superficial design choices.

You're right, I'll just put a paper bag on my head and play the game with my dick, then. Since the controls and perspective don't matter that much, I'm sure it will be just as fun as before.




Must.. hit.. escape key....






-Bah shit, gotta get a paper towel..
 

Gladi

Educated
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Joe Krow said:
Is Wizardry a clickfest? See the distinction? People get too hung up on these little debates and forget the intangibles. It's qualities like character dependence and progression, setting/lore, and intellectual challenge that make a game great. The rest are superficial design choices.

Bright day
See I was jsust talking with my cousin about some older games. Granted while, I did not play Wizardry series he said that they had the same, slash your way here and hack your way there as most games known as role-playing. Lands of Lore, Eye of Beholder, Might and Magic and numerous other earlier games were not mechnically different from Oblivion. Though I concede, that some of them may have been better written - though not by much in most cases.

Well, they were less twitchy, though Dungeon Master has some twitch too, the spell system was just too much for me and so I just kept to spamming Full Ra.
 

Joe Krow

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Oh. Right. Because there has never been a decent first person rpg or maybe there has never been an isometric clickfest. Forgive me for concluding that perspective is not the issue. Please continue not proving that it is. What I meant to say is that all first person rpgs are clickfests and that Bethesda is stupid and greedy. Todd Howard- Isometric- Dialogue tree- Salute. Can I join your little club now? Dipshits.
 

DefJam101

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Epic-fail-guy-dance.gif
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Lestat said:
Keldorn, you make it sound like FPS view and role-playing are mutually exclusive.

That's not the point, really. There main problem with the original assertion lies on the erroneous assumption roleplaying = immersion/pretending. It's irrelevant whether first person view can be successfully implemented in delivering a true roleplaying experience as defined by Codex standards, since that is hardly a concern for the average Oblivion fan.
 

Joe Krow

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Lyric Suite said:
There main problem with the original assertion lies on the erroneous assumption roleplaying = immersion/pretending.

But in this case we are not talking about "pretend" roleplaying, we are talking about a valid limitation. The first person line of sight is a restriction on the player imposed by the character's abilities. In my opinion that is the most valid sort... dumb characters can't cast spells, weaklings can't wear full plate armor, non-cartographers can't map, and beings with two eyes in the front of their head cannot see 20 feet in all directions at the same time. A good rpg allows the character to dictate the player's options. Whether you prefer it or not, I'm sure you agree that the first person perspective is limiting the players abilities to more accurately conform to his character's. How is that pretend? When you play an isometric game do you imagine your character has some innate wizard eye spell that allows him to see everything in a 20 foot radius at the same time? That's pretend. Isometric view and a quest compass and you're good to go. I'm surprised Oblivion didn't include it.
 

Mr Happy

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That's why (ideally) there's line of sight.

SCREEN000.png


With isometric-like view, you can probably achieve a much more realistic peripheral vision than a first persion game. In the shot, everything in the red is invsible to the player. They can still hear things moving around, you get a general direction if its far away ("Spider hears a faint sound coming from the southeast") or a pinpointed area if its loud. You couldn't really effectively pull that off in a first person game without some sort of inset map or a kickass surround sound system.
 

gc051360

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1eyedking said:
skyway said:
F3 will have companions. They will be stupid mules though - they will be there just to shoot enemies and carry your stuff.
Weren't they too in Fallout 2? :D

The idea of a sequel, is to IMPROVE upon the previous titles. Not repeat the same mistakes.

I've never understood how one comes to that line of reasoning. It happens a lot on the Bethesda blog. Basically, they use Fallout's imperfections, to justify crappy design decision for Fallout 3.
 

SkeleTony

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Mr Happy said:
That's why (ideally) there's line of sight.

SCREEN000.png


With isometric-like view, you can probably achieve a much more realistic peripheral vision than a first persion game. In the shot, everything in the red is invsible to the player. They can still hear things moving around, you get a general direction if its far away ("Spider hears a faint sound coming from the southeast") or a pinpointed area if its loud. You couldn't really effectively pull that off in a first person game without some sort of inset map or a kickass surround sound system.


I am awarding Mr. Happy DOUBLE POINTS for citing JA2 in this thread. Bravo sir, bravo.
 

SkeleTony

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Norfleet said:
SkeleTony said:
But there are limits to how beneficial or appropriate the first person perspective is for games in general and RPGs in particular. For one thing there is the whole lack of peripheral vision thing. For another there is the whole lack of tactical capabilities.
Fallout 1 & 2 and FO:Tactics were, at their core, party based RPGs(even if the party aspect was poorly implemented in 1 & 2). Making FO 3 a FP game is stupid IMO...it just does not feel right.
I disagree with this. In my mind, Fallout 1/2 were single-character games, and really poorly utilized its viewpoint and system. It could easily have done fine as an FP game, considering that all you really had was ONE PERSON, and a "party" of braindead idjits which shot you more than the enemy. Given that your controllable resources amounted to ONE PERSON, first-person control would have given you better control of your one, and only, character, without costing you in control of anything else (What else? You only had ONE PERSON). Now, the end result wasn't BAD, but it was not an effective use of its system. Isometry in Fallout was purely a dodge to save on art and system resources. It did not add to the game.

Given all the other decisions already made, first-person is the right move for the game. This is not saying that every previous decision was necessarily good, but given what has already been decided by the game, and the market, first-person is the right way to go. Compare: KOTOR vs. Jedi Knight. When it comes to handling the entire perspective and control thing, Jedi Knight simply does it better.

For all the people protesting the concept of first-person or real-time combat, WHY do you protest it? Do you feel that the real-time or first-person combat will somehow cramp your ability to control your ONE SINGLE CHARACTER? Because while we can all agree that real-time certainly cramps one's options when it comes to dealing with an entire party, Fallout has never been a party-based game. Will real-time really hurt your ability to control one character? Yes, the player's reflexes will start to play a role in this, but are yours really THAT bad? The fact that player skill directly impacts character skill really only matters when the character's skill must exceed the player's skill. If the character does not need to be more skillful than the player, what are you really losing? It's a non-binding constraint as long as the player can match the expected performance of the character.


Well, we majorly disagree here then. I agree that the party system used by FO1 was horrible and I did not use recruited members myself in that one. FO 2 was slightly improved IIRC in some sense or the other(been a few years at least) but FO: Tactics was pretty good. Not JA 2 good but IMO the best overall FO RPG game in this regard.

The other thing here is that first person just does not fit this franchise well. It is like making Duke Nukem isometric, grid-based or something. A character SHOULD be able to see the whole environment around him, ala isometric view in a Fallout game. That iso-scenery is part of the game itself and RPGs are primarily tactical, squad-based games and isometric works best for such. I know that Wizardry 8 and M&M 7 are two of my favorite RPGS of all time and I would have a hard time picturing them as isometric games the same way I would have a hard time picturing Fallout as a FP game.
 

Müg

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oh god what game is that oh god
 

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