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Wasteland This combat is very annoying

Darth Roxor

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I really, really dislike the lack of options available to the characters in combat. Even SRR was more developed than this.

For starters, why the hell is there no form of JA2 style +aiming% per action point if the action points come in decently high numbers? My characters consistently keep doing the same damn things with all their AP - 10 AP means crouch (2) + shoot twice (8), or a variation thereof, rinse and repeat.

Why are there no aimed shots to provide status effects except for headshot? If a 100 hp dude with a peashooter suddenly springs forth to shoop my dudes with 6 shots a turn, why do I have to pray for my combined firepower to be enough to bring him down lest he shoots 6 times again and wipes half of my squad, instead of shooting him in the arm to disarm him? Why can't my KUNG-FU JIHAD dude with high brawling grapple and pin him to the ground? Or at least knock him down and remove some of his AP? Or KO him with a POWER SLAM?

Furthermore, why do grenades and RPGs always hit? That's complete bonkers. And why do grenades only come as frag grenades?

Why do I have to keep doing the same goddamn things all the time, and why do I feel like there's going to be barely any new options opening up in the future since none have opened thus far? There is literally nothing to do here except [attack].

I admit that so far it's been kind of alright, but I can imagine it getting very old very soon, especially since while it started cool, it's ALREADY becoming meh. Not to mention the shootouts seem to be getting progressively less and less deadly as it goes on. But then again, I'm only past AG Centre and Highpool, now at the RSM prison, so maybe there's more shit coming to prove me wrong.
 

Bitcher1

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People here praise every new 'old-school' RPG that comes out, that much was to be expected, but soon many'll probably come around to your view of things. Yeah combat is mainly about repeating the same actions and hoping dice are in your favor. Sometimes proper positioning comes into play when using a shotgun or just trying to avoid friendly fire in general, sometimes you make use of elevation but of course JA2 it ain't.
I'm not that far into the game myself but so far nothing really impressed me. Not the combat, not the skill system (half the non-combat skills are variations of "use it on specific type of container to get some loot", only animal whisperer shows some potential for emergent gameplay), not character progression (lack of traits/perks really shows), not the story or characters (writing is competent but I'm yet to come across anything particularly memorable), certainly not graphics, optimization or stability.
Eh, I played through The Fall so I may as well keep going with this. Maybe the so lauded second half will surprise me.
 
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Volourn

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WL2 has more options and ways to approach combat than majority of games. Not perfect (movement of characetrs is way too fast) but which games have way more options than WL23? There's not many of them. BTW, The game has called shot. FFS You can aim for someone's fukkin' head. FFS
 

Darth Roxor

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but which games have way more options than WL23?

I'll tell you in some 50 years once Wasteland 23 comes out, but right now, like I said, even SRR has more options, and even that game was generally pretty barebones.

But also thanks for reminding me...

(movement of characetrs is way too fast)

Implementing long-range guns like sniper rifles and then making (nearly) everyone fast enough to cover the entire battlefield in one turn is DUMB.
 

Konjad

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I like the game overall a lot, the combat is okay enough, but still very disappointing. I expected something more similar to games like Fallout or Gorky 17 (but without the obvious flaws like eye-shooting in FO and limited aiming in G17), but got something... meh.
 

Zetor

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So far, the only time I felt combat being remotely interesting was when fighting off the pod people in AG center -- and that's because there was a fence I could shoot through and they had to run around, and a tight chokepoint I could cover with my melee. Not that I wanted to melee them in the first place due to the explosions, mind. Every other combat was a deterministic snoozefest where all combat choices were one-dimensional: after some minor positioning and maybe crouching, I would push my button and see whether the character hit the kill target / hit a melee teammate / got a jam / had to reload gun. But then, WL1 combat consisted of pushing an 'attack-single shot' macro for 90% of the encounters, anything is more 'tacticool' than that.

Environment does come into play a few times, but even that is pretty formulaic with obvious sniper spots and whatnot. Though leading waste wolves into a minefield was kinda fun.
 

Roguey

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Autohit grenades and rockets are ftw imo if they're significantly fewer in supply than bullets.

I would support making them a bit more swingy to ~balance~ them. Like making the min damage do half the max.
 

Volourn

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They are relatively rare comapred to other weapons but I still think there should be some skill involved. It would also give demolition soemthing else to do.
 

sser

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Omerta, Gorky, Xenonauts, XCOM:EU, Silent Storm, Shadowrun Returns, Expeditions: Conquistador, Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars.

These are recent-ish (turn-of-century type) turn-based games that bear some similarity to what Wasteland 2 is doing: turn-based, squad-based, shooting-centric, and with grids (mostly). Every single one of those games has more interesting combat because they all decided to include some foundational gameplay mechanics.

Mostly though, I want to talk about Omerta since it is probably the worst game of the lot, yet had some interesting combat nonetheless and shares a lot in common with Wasteland 2's general pacing (in combat) and use of grid. Omerta gave you at least three different attacks depending on what weapon you were using + up to three special abilities attached to the various types of characters. That diversity applied to everything, meaning even guys with bats, knives and fists -- seemingly simplistic weaponry -- had at least three different ways to attack. For example, knives had Dice: quick attack that makes enemies vulnerable - vulnerable enemies take 50% more damage; Slice - an arc attack that causes enemies to be 10% more likely to be struck; or Knife Throw, a low damage attack that causes enemies to bleed. You also had your generic 'attack.' Each ability used different amounts of AP. Other weapons, notably the guns, had effects like fanning a room, suppression, and knockbacks.

In addition to this, the game implemented various grenade effects, notably grenades which you had to time (instead of throw-and-blast), smoke grenades, and molotovs which would blanket an area and essentially cut it off for the time being. That is to say, it could shape the battlefield, quickly shifting fights into directions you did or didn't want it to go.

Character abilities included pushbacks, spotting (increased chance to hit for party members), heal surges, damage surges, defensive boosts, AP boosts, party boosts, distractions (pushing an enemy's turn further back), and using one character to 'action' another character, for example, a doctor uses his ability to skip his turn and make it the turn of the party's primary damage dealer.

Omerta also used a 'courage' (read: morale) system. Many weapons attacked enemy morale instead of their health.

And I'm not trying to sell you on Omerta. It's an objectively bad game with the Tropico engine trying to force its way into a grid system, nevermind the nonexistent, singleplayer-Monopoly-esque strategic layer.


Now what's fucked in Wasteland 2:

Wasteland 2, by comparison, has: crouch, headshot (which really should almost never be used), attack, free weapon switches (the most variability in combat, which I enjoy), gun-specific/random ailment effects, and a much more rigid grid system (Omerta's is somewhat loose if not simply undecided in its nature). Some have mentioned that WL2 has a morale system but it does not. It has a simulation of enemy melee getting into the comfort zones of your ranged characters. A morale system would imply that if half your team got wasted by a rocket launcher, the surviving half would then panic and lose control of the field. That doesn't happen. Whereas Omerta implemented a way for players to observe and take care of troop morale, and affect enemies', WL2 completely removes the player from the equation. Not only does it remove the player from interfacing with whether or not a gun jams or if a party-member goes solo, but the few gameplay mechanics it implements are strictly unfun. This is why you can tell someone like Gollop is much more in tune with game design than whoever the fuck designed WL2's combat. Gollop frequently implements 'unfun' mechanics, but he understood that the player needs to know the rules of the game for a designer to get away with doing it, and in that way he can brutally punish players without cheating them. If guys in X-Com just threw their weapons down randomly, shot their own guys randomly, etc. etc., nobody would want to play that game. Recently, he took a quite literal RNG system in his Chaos game and turned it on its head with the illusion and alignment accrual mechanics. If the player is getting punished with no say in his own failings, you're seriously fucking up in the game design department. That is not code for "make games easy," by the way.

For example, a gun jam would make sense if you had the ability to, say, fire off a 5-round burst of an MG vs. the reliability of a singleshot, and the jam was the 'risk' you took. Single-shot weapons like revolvers (especially), pistols and bolt-action rifles would rarely jam, but they traded high damage potentials for consistency. Instead, guns in WL2 jam just because. Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. And lazy. It's just a lazy way of introducing some procedural gameplay into combat scenarios almost wholly devoid of it. And you wanna know why I know it's shit design? Because one of my char's guns jammed three times in a row outside of combat. What purpose, exactly, did it serve? I wasn't punished with anything more than wasted time, and I had no say in the matter to begin with. There isn't even a modicum of "the gun needs repairs, that's why this is happening." That in itself is a barebones design and shouldn't really be a thing, but even then, nope: again, it happens just because. The same thing applies to losing control of party members. You should never just take the control away from a player without their input. That's a cutscene by another name. Nevermind that WL2's version of this fuck-y'all-I'm-out mechanic wherein the party member breaks formation and sprints toward enemy lines is less like "I'm my own man/woman!" and more like "I'm gonna go commit suicide."

As mentioned, the game has a "enemies are close, you get -% to hit" mechanic. Nothing wrong with that - except most battles begin with enemies bumrushing your lines, there's no zone of control to stop them (or pre-battle ambushes, which is funny, because that's actually what an ambush would be, but I digress), and the only way to counter-act an enemy in your face is to either kill it or take the same action to get away that it used to get in your face: moving. It'd be nice if melee characters had harsh zones of control that stopped enemies from moving through - a simulation of grappling as well as giving melee characters a different level of utility. Maybe winged enemies could fly over them. Maybe speedy characters could 'run through' enemy zones of control.

There's a lot of skills given to the map/exploration aspect of the game and it's fairly enjoyable to move through the land using your party like a big Swiss army knife. But all of that totally disappears in combat. And I don't know why, because combat is such a substantial part of the game. Combat needs to be more than crouch, move, attack, and hope for/against any number of randomness of which you have little to no say in. The boss battles so far have been totally, 100% unthinking. For the start of the game, it's not putting its best foot forward when a boss stands still and you just shoot at it and it shoots at you. Not saying WL2 needs to adapt any one specific system, whether it's the extreme of XCOM's rooted and ability-centric mechanics (streamlined character classes), or something more 'open' like Silent Storm/JA, but it needs something. Right now the primary diversity stems from what weapons you're using. That's just about the only step in the right direction the combat takes.
 

Infinitron

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wall of text wall of text

The same thing applies to losing control of party members. You should never just take the control away from a player without their input. That's a cutscene by another name. Nevermind that WL2's version of this fuck-y'all-I'm-out mechanic wherein the party member breaks formation and sprints toward enemy lines is less like "I'm my own man/woman!" and more like "I'm gonna go commit suicide."

wall of text wall of text

You seem inordinately upset about this point. Have you noticed that it only happens with recruited NPCs and not your Rangers?

It's pretty simple - risk is losing control, reward is larger party.

Anyway, that's a hell of a lot of blah blah blah just to say "I want more options to click on"
 

Volourn

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Not enough 'extra' options to make a big deal. Wow. Option A does a little more damage than option B. DEEP.

Also, whining about 'out of control' npcs. Two fixes for you: A/Up your leadership or B/ Don't use npcs.

Bottom line is WL2 offers enough options. Most of the games you listed suck, and almost of them don't have that much more and some have less options than WL2. BIG DEAL.
 

sser

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wall of text wall of text

The same thing applies to losing control of party members. You should never just take the control away from a player without their input. That's a cutscene by another name. Nevermind that WL2's version of this fuck-y'all-I'm-out mechanic wherein the party member breaks formation and sprints toward enemy lines is less like "I'm my own man/woman!" and more like "I'm gonna go commit suicide."

wall of text wall of text

You seem inordinately upset about this point. Have you noticed that it only happens with recruited NPCs and not your Rangers?

It's pretty simple - risk is losing control, reward is larger party.

Anyway, that's a hell of a lot of blah blah blah just to say "I want more options to click on"


Yes I'm aware it's a mechanic that belongs to party members. No, I don't think a binary risk taken at the hiring point should always be held up as the 'punishment' of the individual using bad AI to go rogue ten hours later. A more logical design would be that a player would lose control over characters because they let them take too much damage, or their allies got peaced out. You know, events that - while in some regard still take into consideration that you hired these people in the first place - ultimately puts the risk/reward at the player's fingertips, not way the fuck in the back of their mind.

And I don't think pointing out that I want options in a turn-based squad-based game is a refutation of my own points. That'd be like going up to an ice cream store with your vanilla cone and asking for sprinkles and chocolate, and some bozo in the corner's chirping "Get a load of this guy, he wants all kinds of shit on his vanilla ice cream! What a dumb fuck!"
 

Infinitron

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Yes I'm aware it's a mechanic that belongs to party members. No, I don't think a binary risk taken at the hiring point should always be held up as the 'punishment' of the individual using bad AI to go rogue ten hours later. A more logical design would be that a player would lose control over characters because they let them take too much damage, or their allies got peaced out. You know, events that - while in some regard still take into consideration that you hired these people in the first place - ultimately puts the risk/reward at the player's fingertips, not way the fuck in the back of their mind.

OK, but are you also aware that it's supposed to be a thing that adds personality in general - not just a morale-based panic attack?

And I don't think pointing out that I want options in a turn-based squad-based game is a refutation of my own points. That'd be like going up to an ice cream store with your vanilla cone and asking for sprinkles and chocolate, and some bozo in the corner's chirping "Get a load of this guy, he wants all kinds of shit on his vanilla ice cream! What a dumb fuck!"

That's not supposed to be a refutation. Yes, the combat is fairly simple by tactical RPG standards. It's souped up Fallout without the aimed shots (but we'll get those)
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's souped up Fallout without the aimed shots (but we'll get those)
Not sure if "souped up" is the proper word.... and have aimed shots been confirmed as a patch then? I'll postpone my playthrough if so.

Fargo has pretty much said "yeah we're gonna do that", in the recent Reddit AMA and other places.

Doesn't mean it'll be next week or next month, though.
 

Toll

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Just because Combat work in WL1 a certain way, it doesn't mean that 28 years or so of game development can be ignored.

Wasteland 2 has lots of combat involved, there is no-way around it. As such, it should have been an absolutely imperative design goal to have highly interesting combat.
They should have looked at all the turn-based tactical games available that had both excellent and crap combat design. They should have identified what design choices make the most interesting Turn-based tactical combat and the worst. They should have then built a system for WL2 that was highly engaging and built the game out from there.

There is simply NO UTILITY in combat. You can't really manage a combat scenario besides maybe sitting behind a crate. It shows really, really poor design when 'kiting' is the most advanced tactic available for crowd control.

You are rangers, you are considered an organized pseudo-military force in a post apocalyptic setting. Smoke grenades are seriously easy to make from easily found raw materials in real life (not as efficient as proper ones, but significantly better than none).
Just the simple addition of smoke grenades would have made a HUGE improvement to the highly rinse and repeat combat of Wasteland 2. Seriously, how did they NOT implement this?
If you have played any tactical shooter turn-based or real time, and have used smoke grenades you can appreciate how incredibly useful their utility is.
 

Toll

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"Not enough 'extra' options to make a big deal. Wow. Option A does a little more damage than option B. DEEP."

You completely missed the options of utility in his examples. Option A does a little less damage, but pins a target so that another character has a better to-hit chance. Option B prevents a target from esacping out of melee, allowing better crowd control. Option C temporarily stuns a target, so you can focus better on other targets. Of course many of these options are available to the enemy, so you have to think about what is coming your way.

You are right in that more/less damage as a utility is a poor design choice if that is as far as it goes, however that isn't what is being asked for here.
 

Volourn

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"As such, it should have been an absolutely imperative design goal to have highly interesting combat."

And, it does. And, people have quoted some silly games and even if they are telling the truth they're the exception that proves the rule.

WL2 combat is fun, with enoguh options to make it interesting. Go back and play your shitty POR2s, Twitchers, PEs, PSTs, and other shitty wannabe games.

DEATH TO UNBELIEVERS!

L0L Most be a DOSSHIT fanboi!

No oldskool game would have RPG drive the dialogue.

WL2 is TRUE oldskool and a hella fun game in spite of some issues.
 

Toll

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Yeah it's fun. The combat is highly repetitive though. Choose cover, shoot. The only choices in combat is which cover to choose (often there isn't much of a choice given enemy placement) and which weapon to use. Again the choice of weapon is mostly dictated by enemy position. What else is there? What utility options do I have to alter the combat? For an RPG there is very little roleplaying in the combat..
 

Volourn

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I have never played a game that didn't have 'repetitive' combat/game play.

Seriously, what games did you play whose combat vastly different or changed?

As long as the combat is fun, reaosnably challenging that rewards smart play and changes things up a little that's the best you can hope for.

Don't get me wrong. There are certainly MORE options that can be added but none of them would dramatically change the gameplay/combat.

WL/FO are games based around gun based combat with some melee thrown in for kicks (super kuckles!).
 

sser

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Yes I'm aware it's a mechanic that belongs to party members. No, I don't think a binary risk taken at the hiring point should always be held up as the 'punishment' of the individual using bad AI to go rogue ten hours later. A more logical design would be that a player would lose control over characters because they let them take too much damage, or their allies got peaced out. You know, events that - while in some regard still take into consideration that you hired these people in the first place - ultimately puts the risk/reward at the player's fingertips, not way the fuck in the back of their mind.

OK, but are you also aware that it's supposed to be a thing that adds personality in general - not just a morale-based panic attack?

WL2 doesn't have morale. I stated as much in my post. If the characters' battle cries are anything to go by, the going-rogue segments seem to be just that. And personality can be derived from many things. A nut like Angela running to her certain doom and a Doctor doing the exact same doesn't exactly tell me anything about their personalities other than they are both abnormally stupid. A Doctor who goes crazy at the sight of her own blood (irony) or a mercenary like Angela going crazy when her party is attacked (Ace death PTSD) - those would be personality traits.

Also, for the record, I have one character leveling Leadership. It is, from what I can tell, the most pointless of the skills. Melee enemies negate the %-bonus. Stopping allies from going rogue doesn't actually seem to be a thing. There is no defending these gameplay mechanics. They are poorly designed, flat out. A person going rogue should be governed by what is going on in the battle, and predicated on whether or not the player took steps to prevent it. It's called gameplay. A person going rogue should not be governed by their own existence, and the risk for it wholly predicated on the binary function of whether or not I have them in the party. That's just plain ol' RNG. Narrative-wise, it is stupid that all companions behave in this manner, and that any combat unit would ever hire such undependable people, or that such people would even survive in the wasteland to begin with.
 

Toll

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Some are more repetitive than others. There isn't really much meat to the combat to have smart play. It's almost there though. It has a few trivial choices. I'm very glad they have armour and armour penetration to think about.
I do like the option to burst/single fire (combined with armour penetration thoughts). Crouching is pretty much a no brainer though, if you have spare AP that can't be used next turn, you crouch. There seems to be no draw-back to crouching.
The headshot option is very, very often not worth using, perhaps if it guaranteed significant extra damage worth the extra AP and lower chance to hit.
Ambush can be fun when the map works to limit movement distance.

Unfortunately moving around the battlefield doesn't really come into it too much. The main problem is that so many enemies are super happy to come running to you and travel great distances in a single turn to do it. I think if they nerf movement distances for enemies in particular it would open up the tactical aspect of the game more. I also would love to see smoke grenades in the game to break LoS, used by both enemies and the player.

I like the jamming feature .. at about half the rate it does now. Again, Coordination can come into play here by reducing the unjam AP cost with higher coordination (it takes a special effort to unjam a weapon whilst under fire). I'd like to see weapon jamming as a function of weapon age, so the longer you've had a weapon the more likely it is to jam, weaponsmithing could be used with cleaning items to slow the jamming progression.

Outside of combat, the game is great. I like a lot of what they have done.
 

Volourn

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"Also, for the record, I have one character leveling Leadership. It is, from what I can tell, the most pointless of the skills. Melee enemies negate the %-bonus. Stopping allies from going rogue doesn't actually seem to be a thing. There is no defending these gameplay mechanics. They are poorly designed, flat out."

No.

"Crouching is pretty much a no brainer though, if you have spare AP that can't be used next turn, you crouch. There seems to be no draw-back to crouching."

Disagree. Crouching with a sniper and then having to move said snipe because some enemy entered melee means you have to waste 2 more aps to get up retreat then shoot again. Menaing you might be crouching at that point.


"Unfortunately moving around the battlefield doesn't really come into it too much. The main problem is that so many enemies are super happy to come running to you and travel great distances in a single turn to do it. I think if they nerf movement distances for enemies in particular it would open up the tactical aspect of the game more."

This is probably the biggest combat beef I wholeheartedly agree with. Characters move with too fast on battlefield. they need to slow down the movement per ap stat.


"Again, Coordination can come into play here by reducing the unjam AP cost with higher coordination (it takes a special effort to unjam a weapon whilst under fire)."

Agreed.


As for jamming, it should be pointed out that presumably majority of guns in the WL are old weapons not taken care of for the most part.
 

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