Thursday is finally here.

[Carrion]

Take the assassin vignette (and this is a good example as the "assassin" choice is one of the most enticing of all the options in chargen). Back when I first ran the game I started out with the preset stats, spread my SP along dagger, crit strike, dodge and sneak - sounds reasonable for an assasin to develop these. Now, at that inn I tried persuading the bodyguard to just leave, failed. Had the option to leave just with the parchment but hey "this guy is just a local brawler and I'm a trained assassin", I thought, "besides, this is the first fight in the game, right?". And then I saw the "you're fucked" message.

The first few challenges before the player should be relatively easy to overcome as long as he doesn't do anything really stupid. Pretty sure I didn't when starting out with the assassin, just that odds were way too even (or even seemed in favour of the other guy if I chose the 'throw crossbow' option and failed). I netted the guy, used aimed attacks and stuff like that and finally emerged victorious yet it still seemed that if the rolls would favour me less I'd be pretty much dead even though I used quite a few of the resources at my PCs disposal.

I do agree that there are some unfair fights in the demo (at least the ones where the game doesn't let you position yourself properly without a good reason), but that first assassin fight is a good example of a "level 1" encounter done right. I mean, you're straight out of the chargen and immediately face an experienced mercenary. The game makes it pefectly clear that your opponent looks tough and may be too much for you. If you still choose to attack him despite having the opportunity to avoid it, chances are that you'll get slaughtered, which is a perfect introduction to the ruthless world of AoD.

On the other hand you get Feng's quest right afterwards where you can choose to kill a weak loremaster. That fight is pretty much a walk in the park. During the first 5-10 minutes the game already teaches you the importance of choosing the right fights and staying out of the wrong ones. A false sense of power resulting from easy first encounters would almost certainly get you in trouble afterwards even in the demo.

 

[Grimlorn]

There's basically a mini manual in the help button on the UI. All you have to do is click through it and read everything to get a basic understanding of how the game mechanics work and learn there are other attacks to do besides normal attack. And that certain weapons are better for power attacks and certain ones for fast attacks. RTFM

I wonder how many people complaining about the combat didn't even know there were other attacks, or the benefits of using those different attacks.

This is all quite reasonable and to be expected. Yet most people are not reasonable and require some guidance. I'm not advocating going full retard, not even reducing the combat difficulty. It wasn't a problem for me and for most of the Codexers, but not many players are going to persevere through multiple deaths in the first minute of the game. Ignoring (or accepting and doing nothing to remedy) this is a disservice to not only AoD revenues, but potential players and the genre itself by turning those potential fans into jaded and bitter opponents (something akin to bizzaro Codex).

There could be some kind of prompt at the beginning of the game letting you know about the help button and telling you to use it to learn the game and informing players it's a good idea to read as it functions as a manual.

 

[Monocause]

I mean, you're straight out of the chargen and immediately face an experienced mercenary. The game makes it pefectly clear that your opponent looks tough and may be too much for you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he was described as "one of the local brawlers rich people hire to get a false sense of security" and if you die you get a you're fucked message which suggests that the fellow guild members will laugh that you fell before a nobody.

A false sense of power resulting from easy first encounters would almost certainly get you in trouble afterwards even in the demo.

Not if you introduce a learning curve of any sort. The encounters should get progressively harder and only then flat-out at a 'standard AoD' difficulty once the player isn't so wet behind his ears. Seriously, the 'get fucked right off the bat' design is hard to defend. There is no reason why the player shouldn't start out with a couple of easy fights; literally everything points towards the notion that it is a superior design choice unless you're a masochist or have got tons of RPG experience.

 

[Carrion]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he was described as "one of the local brawlers rich people hire to get a false sense of security" and if you die you get a you're fucked message which suggests that the fellow guild members will laugh that you fell before a nobody.

I can't remember the exact wording but I remember there being a description on how you can see that you're opponent's been to a fair share of battles in his life. Not sure if perception plays a part in this. Never saw the death screen on my playthrough so I can't comment on that.

Not if you introduce a learning curve of any sort. The encounters should get progressively harder and only then flat-out at a 'standard AoD' difficulty once the player isn't so wet behind his ears. Seriously, the 'get fucked right off the bat' design is hard to defend. There is no reason why the player shouldn't start out with a couple of easy fights; literally everything points towards the notion that it is a superior design choice unless you're a masochist or have got tons of RPG experience.

In some other case I might agree, but based on VD's interviews and comments it's a deliberate choice that the combat route is one of the hardest paths you can take in the game. A hard opening fight may not be the perfect introduction to the combat system, but it shows a profound difference between the spirit of AoD and most other RPGs.

 

[Twinkle]

Merc vs assassin fight can be pretty trivial if RNG loves you and you start with throwing nets. They should let people choose their starting equipment (on limited funds, of course)

 

[Erebus]

Tried a praetor for the first time. Maxed Int and Cha. Barely faced any problem at all.

Tried a thief again. No problem at first, but after half a dozen tries, had to admit I simply couldn't win the ambush.

Tried a mercenary again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Barely managed to win the first fight. Later committed suicide by attacking five guards by myself, because I couldn't figure out how to access the mine with the stats I had.

 

[Excidium]

Tried a mercenary again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Do you remember your character's build? I could beat that assassin and the follow-up merchant ambush thugs without any issues on my mercenary.

 

[Esquilax]

Merc vs assassin fight can be pretty trivial if RNG loves you and you start with throwing nets. They should let people choose their starting equipment (on limited funds, of course)

An Arcanum style chargen merchant is a good idea that I recall being mentioned before.

 

[Erebus]

Do you remember your character's build? I could beat that assassin and the follow-up merchant ambush thugs without any issues on my mercenary.

I don't think it was anything special : 8 in Strength, Constitution and Dexterity ; all my skills points put either in Sword or in Block. The assassin simply inflicted more damage than my PC did.

 

[Grunker]

+1000 for the chargen merchant from here, too.

 

[Sordid Jester]

Strength + Dagger + Block. Woooo!

Edit: Fuck. Shield breaks and there's no way I can stay alive without it. Oh well, best combat run I've had so far! I can't seem to make other weapons work nearly as well yet. I want to keep trying, though!

 

[Infinitron]

Tried a praetor for the first time. Maxed Int and Cha. Barely faced any problem at all.

Tried a thief again. No problem at first, but after half a dozen tries, had to admit I simply couldn't win the ambush.

Tried a mercenary again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Barely managed to win the first fight. Later committed suicide by attacking five guards by myself, because I couldn't figure out how to access the mine with the stats I had.

^^Text for the next AoD trailer.

 

[Excidium]

Do you remember your character's build? I could beat that assassin and the follow-up merchant ambush thugs without any issues on my mercenary.

I don't think it was anything special : 8 in Strength, Constitution and Dexterity ; all my skills points put either in Sword or in Block. The assassin simply inflicted more damage than my PC did.

Hm. If you have time, can you can try later with spear instead of sword and post your results?

 

[Emily]

I tried the game, and have to say i think this could be one of those epic games that define the genre
Now i dint want to play a lot, since id ont want to spoil my virginity on the game,and i consider it a very important thing, first time is alyways the best (i still remember gothic 2 first time getting lost in the dark in the forest.. oh sweet memories)
I have to say the loremaster's potential just blew me away, i just love how that storyteller guy talks about all these stuff that no1 knows (or maybe just few) about, and that u could potentialy explore and find some major treasures, and hell maybe even magic ingame :D ... That is such an feat to have an genuine passion to explore, to find out the truth ingame, to find hidden treasures, and even more beyound wealth, true power : D
Combat is great, very strategic, just would be nice that if u play merchant or loremaster u could hire some asasin or guards, for instance when i did the Feng quest to kill off rival loremaster i got an idea to go to the asasins guild and try to hire them, but there wasent any option to do so.. Oh and another thing the game does have some bugs, it really does, but nothing too game breaking.
Also i loved those death msg's they are very imersive, when i died as an loremancer who got set up by a theif guild member using my handwriting, not much could be done, and i felt that death was the most natural thing to come in such a situation :D..........
So anyways great game VD, hopefully we wont have to wait for long time for the real thing. This will be a definite buy for me : )

 

[username]

Game is great... Addicting.

 

[Elhoim]

We are adding an option to buy some stuff and save your game in the vignettes that have combat in them.

 

[circ]

OK TESTING THE IMPOSSIBLE. No not IG with a dodging assassin. Mining camp with a dodging assassin. Actually I may have fucked myself over, erm no not necessarily. 20 or was it 22 SP to go, just need sneak and lockpick. Maybe doable. Oh wait, I can always fail and kick the ass of those considerably easier guys. But then I can't do shit? You can return to the camp and say I fucked up and quest will still be active. Or do you just need to kill the slaves to get quest complete?
ANYWAY. THE TEST. OR HOW TO BE A BOSS.

50 dagger, 60 dodge, 57 crit. Crafting is at 50 because crafting 60 doesn't do anything special unless you wear heavy armor. I'm using manica armor because funnily it's better than fucking leather in every way, even offering less -dodge. Although its crit protection is shit. I had 50 dodge for bandit camp, I knew it was doable with a non block warrior, but actually gave it a shot this time. Got lucky and no reloads necessary.

Mining camp. Different story. Maybe with steel manica? Hmmm maybe. Unfortunately to get steel manica you need to join thief quest, as that's the only shopkeeper that sells steel items for decomposing. And fuck if I'm making another char for that shit. Anyway, I can kill off 3 guys, then it's game over. So no, heavy iron/steel armor is bullshit. Dodge doesn't really go off much. Oh also I got lucky with Flavius this time and kicked his ass. Power, power, normal was enough with a 2 dr steel dagger.

But yeah, I think you can screw yourself completely over by bad SP allocation. If you fail a sneak check, you're dead. Can't do lore either if you didn't get it to something like 40s. Well, in the full game I guess you can just do this one later if you're out of SP?

 

[circ]

Ok, I tested out sneaky route for mining camp. 35 sneak was enough for first check which I remembered. Dex check for climb is like 8, so no probs there. Second sneak check was a 40, still some SP to go. Failures at sneak checks get you into combat. First fail I think lands you outside, which gets you killed unless you're a block/heavy armor guy. Dex fail I think was instadeath through text. Second fail puts you into combat in the mine. Was doable with 50 dodge assassin, but, once you exit you only get one check, fight the guards you sneaked by before. Instadeath for this build, as I had 8 hp left, and it's not doable even with full hp without heavy/block.

So my only option was to pump remaining sp into lockpick, which completes the quest. Lockpick was 44. Think that's barely a pass as 40 wasn't enough. If I hadn't had the SP it would have been undoable this way.
Anyway, my only other option is sneak/dodge/lore route. Will test how much lore is required. But this is bullshit. High sneak works, being an assassin and all, but why would I only be presented with lockpick or lore as an assassin, neither being very assassin-like. How the fuck does the lockpick route get you out anyway when walking out just leads into combat? Yeah, ANOTHER ASSASSIN OPTION PLEASE.

EDIT: Ok tested lore. Barely made that check with 37 lore, blowing all my sp. Test did fucking nothing. Well I can I guess lore then lockpick, but out of sp for lockpick. So the only route available to me is sneak/dex/sneak/lockpick.
Balls.

Maybe put a hireable lockpick guy in thief guild?

Or talk to um. Some guy. Who says talk to other guy. Who says fuck off, talk to other guy. Who says why are you talking to me I SAID TALK TO SAURON TALK TO SAURON. Who says yeah I handle the food shipments to the mining camp why?

WHY? WELL IF YOU DON'T PUT THIS (POISON) INTO THEIR WINE I WILL [INTIMIDATE CHECK] FUCK YOUR SHIT UP. FUCKER. YOU FUCK. SHIT.

You could use the poison (not available in demo) from Colton you got earlier.

EDIT2: Ok tested disguise route. Pretty high disguise check, twice? Pumped it to 50. Then comes a streetwise check, fail. Followed by persuasion check. Fail. OK HOW ARE ANY OF THESE IN ANY WAY ASSASSIN-LIKE? Short of disguise, which just leads you to likely fails because you're shit out of sp.

EDIT3: Idea. Remove disguise and persuasion and combine them into a single skill called subterfuge.

Also, non diplo/heavy armor guys might just want to completely ignore this quest in the demo, because it just gives 8 sp, whereas if you don't do it, you got 25 remaining sp, in my case. I think I'll blow those on crossbow and shoot those IG bitches up more fiercely than usual.

 

[Grunker]

We are adding an option to buy some stuff and save your game in the vignettes that have combat in them.

Why not in all vignettes? You can adjust the gear/money available based on stats/skills/lore?

 

[MetalCraze]

Tried a praetor for the first time. Maxed Int and Cha. Barely faced any problem at all.

Tried a thief again. No problem at first, but after half a dozen tries, had to admit I simply couldn't win the ambush.

Tried a mercenary again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Got killed in the first fight again.

Tried an assassin again. Barely managed to win the first fight. Later committed suicide by attacking five guards by myself, because I couldn't figure out how to access the mine with the stats I had.

I'm sorry to say this Erebus, but you are an idiot. I have testers showing me end game screens. My game is perfect.
Elhoim worked day and night to create Vault-Dwel Ambush Teleport System(tm)

 

[Erebus]

I'm sorry to say this Erebus, but you are an idiot.

I must be, because the rest of what you say is beyond my understanding.

 

[Grunker]

Skyway is agreeing with you with a beyond retarded edgy sarcastic comment regarding the gameplay mechanics in AoD.

 

[Malakal]

Well I gotta agree, combat is way too brutal while non violent approach is too easy. This needs some work and balancing surely.

 

[Silellak]

Skyway is agreeing with you with a beyond retarded edgy sarcastic comment regarding the gameplay mechanics in AoD.

Damn; I was kind of hoping he left the thread to start his 8th replay of KotoR. You think AoD is replayable; you should see KotoR!

 

[Kaol]

Ok, I tested out sneaky route for mining camp. 35 sneak was enough for first check which I remembered. Dex check for climb is like 8, so no probs there. Second sneak check was a 40, still some SP to go. Failures at sneak checks get you into combat. First fail I think lands you outside, which gets you killed unless you're a block/heavy armor guy. Dex fail I think was instadeath through text. Second fail puts you into combat in the mine. Was doable with 50 dodge assassin, but, once you exit you only get one check, fight the guards you sneaked by before. Instadeath for this build, as I had 8 hp left, and it's not doable even with full hp without heavy/block.

So my only option was to pump remaining sp into lockpick, which completes the quest. Lockpick was 44. Think that's barely a pass as 40 wasn't enough. If I hadn't had the SP it would have been undoable this way.
Anyway, my only other option is sneak/dodge/lore route. Will test how much lore is required. But this is bullshit. High sneak works, being an assassin and all, but why would I only be presented with lockpick or lore as an assassin, neither being very assassin-like. How the fuck does the lockpick route get you out anyway when walking out just leads into combat? Yeah, ANOTHER ASSASSIN OPTION PLEASE.

EDIT: Ok tested lore. Barely made that check with 37 lore, blowing all my sp. Test did fucking nothing. Well I can I guess lore then lockpick, but out of sp for lockpick. So the only route available to me is sneak/dex/sneak/lockpick.
Balls.

Maybe put a hireable lockpick guy in thief guild?

Or talk to um. Some guy. Who says talk to other guy. Who says fuck off, talk to other guy. Who says why are you talking to me I SAID TALK TO SAURON TALK TO SAURON. Who says yeah I handle the food shipments to the mining camp why?

WHY? WELL IF YOU DON'T PUT THIS (POISON) INTO THEIR WINE I WILL [INTIMIDATE CHECK] FUCK YOUR SHIT UP. FUCKER. YOU FUCK. SHIT.

You could use the poison (not available in demo) from Colton you got earlier.

EDIT2: Ok tested disguise route. Pretty high disguise check, twice? Pumped it to 50. Then comes a streetwise check, fail. Followed by persuasion check. Fail. OK HOW ARE ANY OF THESE IN ANY WAY ASSASSIN-LIKE? Short of disguise, which just leads you to likely fails because you're shit out of sp.

EDIT3: Idea. Remove disguise and persuasion and combine them into a single skill called subterfuge.

Also, non diplo/heavy armor guys might just want to completely ignore this quest in the demo, because it just gives 8 sp, whereas if you don't do it, you got 25 remaining sp, in my case. I think I'll blow those on crossbow and shoot those IG bitches up more fiercely than usual.

I don't think that quest really suits an assassin, i'm not sure every quest should be completable with any skillset.