VAMPIRE SUPERHEROES the Masquerade 4th Edition

[Excidium II]

It's not just they are weaker in WtF (nice acronym) but the whole themes of the setting is completely different. It's not like VtM vs VtR where it's still basically the same stuff with different names.

Then again I'm not sure what's the worst approach to rebooting something.

 

[Copper]

Fuck all of you - Werewolf is the one that's most improved by the reboot.

No more Metis - no more wolf born either. Both big improvements, I shudder to think at the 'Malkavian' take on being wolf-born
No more 'Let's wander around in Crinos form all the time, because why would we use anything else?'
No more early nineties 'Mother Gaia is dying' eco-warrior stuff is an improvement in my book, as is moving away from just ripping of Pat Mills/2000AD (Slaine/Finn)
Spirit mechanics still suck, but the theme behind them and the spirit host was improved a lot too.

Also, the theme is not that different - you're still 'supposed' to be protecting reality, even if more as predatory assholes than as counter-culture heroes riddled with white guilt.

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQTEhUUExQVFRUVGBwaGBgXFxcaHRgaFxgYGB0YHxkcHCggGB0lHhwVITEiJSkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OGxAQGywkICYsLCwsLCwtLCwsLCw0LCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLP/AABEIAIYBDAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAGAAMEBQcCAQj/xABJEAABAwIEAwUFBAUICQUAAAABAgMRAAQFEiExBkFRBxMiYXEUMoGRoUKxwdEjUmLh8BUzcoKywsPxFhckJjQ1Q4OzCCVEk6L/xAAaAQACAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBQQG/8QALBEAAgIBAwIEBQUBAAAAAAAAAAECEQMEEiExQSJRYfATIzKBsQVxkcHRof/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8AxwunrXveHrXbTJUqBzrYbbs8w+zYQvE3iHHNkhRSE7SNBJiRJ2qqixujHAo17JrYD2Z2ZvWm0XBcZeQpWVK0lxOUAgzrKDO5E17iXBeCsrLa7txC0qhQK0ynSf1PSjaG4x+TSzGtl4g7OsMtmO9XcOpzpJazKTC1ZcwA8HPSh7s04KYv2rlbynElrLlyEAeJKzrIM6ilQXxZnmY0sxrXMd7J0CzS9arcW6EJWUKykKBSCQmAIPSq7hfge0ew1V4+t1JQpWbIUgBKVAEwUnWCaKCzM85r3MaPe0LgMWTzCbcrcQ+IQVQTnBAyyAJkKSRRZcdjjOdttDzgIGZ5RCSANgEpAGpOaJOgSaKHZi2Y0s5rZf8AVphtxnbtL0l5A1BUhY06pABjzBqnT2bIRYXL7ynEv25cGQZchyRHKYIINFBZmeY0go1oHG3ArNtaMXds44407GbPl8OYSk+ED9oHzirrD+y+37q0L7zqXrojwJyQPCVncToAPnRQWZNmNe5zWt4n2dYc24GfbV9+VoSGyW83jUBtHQz8KlXPZLZBzuRerS8RKUKDZJHXLoSPSigsxoLNaN2TDN7UD0b+9yg/ifh9yyuFMOxIghQ2Uk7KFF/Y+6A5cJP2koj4Ff51dp+Mi99ijUq8T99zQkNU0tMFQ86sWmPEK9uLb9IqBrpWl8Tkz44+ClxK97plbmkgeH+kdBQRwrh4fukhQlKfEqecdfU1fdpN4EIQyDqTmPoBpT3ZrZAMlzm4d/JMj7yaz9Xl8jX/AE/D3YaIFdGkE8qdyVmJGq5IjyKYWNqfcHl+FNrVoPCfpUqGmM5oplxEDepKWtTpEdTvXimCfKKi4lqmkyruDHOq91cmKmPNGeenTrUJxAk6n6afnUE6NCCRHUJNQ7liZqUtXIGob7nIbV0YuWV6jiIO3zAg1Cs1QnXrRDe2gjQ1RNgCumqMXJyDGGvZHUrP2VA+sGYr6E4hw03rtnfWyW7ltsKzNLUEhQXBGpBAIMyCOQr54tLcrWEgwVED5mKPse4UxDCWw4l9XdqMKLKlgJPLMPPr5VFM4GuTXot2rm3aQ002+sKUQ2kSlIQZ1ABgkgDTWDQn2uC6Nq8FMMpt0rSQ6F/pD0lOXTU9aCVcLXabVGIpfJU5AASV96c6soE89eVELXZtiL7X6e7y5v8AprW4vzg6xNNtiVIk9sR/9vsPUf8AhFe9hP8AM3v/AG/7LtUo7PMQfcVbvP8A80kKb7xa1JUkymUdIgAjlIqu4J4UvLkP+zvFjuyErGZac6vF4fDuRB360u4+Ko0jijiVdhb4c8BmQYS4n9ZJaSdPMbj99T8faZ/kq7XbwWnm1ujLsSsCSBy21HWayfhvhm7xNDgVcFKLaBDylkJJBkAcoCdfhQn/ACs8lBaS853Woyhagkg/szEGlY9pu/Z3dt39kwXYU5ZuDfkUpIQo+RSf/wA03wnxU3fu37GfIXCQyeam8hbkdSCM0ftVg1pijrQUGnFthYhQQopzDXQwddz86jtvlJBSSCNQRoR6EbUWx0bVwN2c3FpeB95bYbZBgpPvSCNf1RzM9KKnnRf2V4LaFd4pbaDMBRSlCZnpIOtfPl3xNdOoyOXDy0fqqWog+onX41xY8Q3LKcjT7raZnKhZAk84FFhRt/BeFqNu9hV8BmbCXEhJmWlqkQfJST8FCoN7jntHENu0kyi3zIEbZiglf3Af1ax//SK57zvfaHe9jLnzqzZekzt5VEYxJxDneIWpLkznBIVJ3M7zvRYUfR/EYfLyALVruQ8yTcZxn0cT9jLO+m9QOJuE37nFba4RCWmQgqVOsoUVZQN9dvjWHr4rvFb3T51B1cVuDIO/WvX+LLxaSlV0+QdwXFa/Wiw2hZ21Yo29fANqCu6QEKI1GaSSJ8ppjsobzXCo5AH1HioCzUedkZ/2v5fcrSrML8aK8y+WzZ7ZGsHltTlwiHZ6gU62kaVHxZ3IpJ/YJ+VdClcjnUeDFO0DEO8ulj9XT0rQuBYFqwPI/U1jmLXOd9azqCsn61qHZ1e97bAc21FOnzH0rgzys2tJBcr0NAiuAKaU4qJifSmu+Mnwj4nWTVVolHGzu4VUJ+8GbLz+6liF2ApCZ1KtgaGH73K8ST1H36/x0qLkduDT7lbDG3dC0yP840ild3GVJ0jbWevKq3BsRBYQdgEa/M1R4ljIXJIjXWD0oeSkENK5ZGn0TLO6vAke98kj8aqLl8QRPnt++qi5xtAJJPwnauLfFUn91Vcs0IKEOLJSnN/vps6mCdD9KSLhJG2tdwkzFdGDqU6u9tjF+uGyZ1FDCXZq3xRZKFActKpWtBrXVJ8mHJFHhB/TI/pD7xX0nxNjTLdy1aXISWbttYlWwUFAAHoDO/IgV8zWpIWCkSZEes6UdcWJxa+KF3No7+iBAyMLGiiCZ3naopnG1ybJa4ei0t7dlSpQ26lKVK01KjknzkgetZ52nYVfuXwU2h5bcJ7ot5oSRuNPdVOsmhe64uxC7ZFmqXB4RCWyXCUHSSNZq/VxXjdoyO+aVkAjO6ySR6qB++nYqo0i5xPuDh7b6gX3T3aj1Jb8R9M+QetNuus4dlGg9ruz5QXNz8IHzrEcUur95Sb11LygkgpdyEITCtIMQBNSuJMZxC+bbfebUWmpKXENFKASRJzbTIAmlYbTVuJbUWVldhgEuXbpyJSNSt6EwBz+0awHGsJetnO7fbU2uAcquh2PQijLFeKcUfQzcOIUG2F94h1LRCM3uyVbHmPiaq8bGIYkoXK2HHARkSptpWSAdhE86iySA8iuTRCrhC939kuP/qX+VQcQwR9nL3zLjef3c6FJzRG0jXcfMUDKyvKv/wDRG9yd57JcZIme6Xt1iJqHZYI+9m7ll1zL72RClZZmJgabH5U7ArDXk1LtrBxxeRtC1rP2UpKlGN9AJpq9tFtKKHEKQsbpUCkj1B1FFgMzXoNcV7QA6k0b9l7gTcyowApH1zCgZNFnA8S5O0tzHSVVZi+tFeb6GfQ7Zql44xAMMBw8goDzJTpVnaqMDnNCvbEU+wJ6lwR8jP4VZJ7XZViW50YSpRrSeyC4gPgnZSD8wofhWZKou7PHSFvpHNCT6ZVH864snQ19MryJeZql9jxOiCEjrHPlFBWL4w6CYVmCfOfnU/EcZZtkQ5Klq+ymJPlJ2HnQdiWKOueEoLSSmUJaTnKidsxJ+tVRi3yzTlkx4U4w6k614hIUFKOonQ9T/Bq7sLVdwoLH5iKDcOw1zTOhep6GflWpcC4UprvEnUCIHSZ+vlQ4q+AhqJxg5SKvFF9wxlCvFJn/AC5Vnd3iyyYH0rROOkpCTJMnXesut2wViTAnelGKQ82VtKu4+2yVKhRjyAJ+Om1XmGusJT/PonbWUmfXaurDCBKVLgtzKkyZXHImPpUriezD5UW3Sw2vKVsnVOYCAREeVWqq5Ob5kWmlYwt7XwKzemv1FRlYmqY1BFVYwwp0azEjdQ0Bk6VZWFitSyCDMc5VMUkkuha8kpcMkd8VNyf86r2kEiau3bHKCCZ5dPpUQMxpVydnFkxuLoFcJI71H9JP3ivqTEmrk3DJaWhLCc3fJUJKpjLlPLnXypZOhKwTsCD8jR72k8cov1MlgOthsLCsxicxTHunWIO/WpWZjjbNVUthgX18wlLjgkEp1ktJEpkeZkx0oY7OON7m9uVMXCUOIWgnREZY5HkUnbWgngDjpdgVIWjvWHNVJmCDtmTOmo0IO8CixztLsrdCzY2mV1e5KUoTPKYMqHlTsTRd8Z2CWMGfaR7iFkJHQd9IHw2+FVduP92leiv/AC1CwftFtfZAxdsuPKJUXNElKipZVOp6mpTXaLhwZUwbVzuST+jyoywTMRm660g5HFj/AHa/q/4tSOHr5bHD/etkBbeZSSROod6VWWfaPZp7y3Van2NXuJAEpn3klMwROoIM6mqnjLj5l21FnZMlpn7RMDQGcqQNpO5NIdBvxdxNcM4Xb3Dakh13IFkpBHjQonTlRJfYU27c2qlgHuUOKQDr4j3Sc3w/GsZ4o43ZuMNt7RCHA41kzFUZTkSQY1nnVrxD2sJU9bO2ragWQsOJciFpWEDLof2d/SlYbWSVdp12MQ7vInug93fd5TnjNlnNM5ufStKtMObYublxsR3qG1rA08SC6M0dSPurPP8AWdhmb2j2NXtHXKiZ/p/jFV2B9rCQ7dO3SFS8lCW0twQhKA5oZOvvDWnY6C2x4cbViFtidpBZfCi4E/ZUpBhflJ0I5H1rKO1//mlx/V/sJqw7Nu0L2DM08FOMK1ATEoX1EnY8x5UN8e44i8vXX2woIXEBUTokDl6Uh1yDppTXJNIVIB1Jou4GRPfeiP79CCTRn2fH+f8A6n9+rcCvIvfYp1DrG/t+TcsIue8abV+skfPY1Q9rjoGHmRqpQSPLUH8KscCSfZmZEQD8p3+NU/aq0VYcpUnwLQSPImKszKrZVp34kYSRWhdkWHZ3HnIkAJRtOqiT9wFZ9Otax2JLBS+D9laFfNKgPuNcE+Ua2KW12Xq+Em++W64ApWmVIkgD0PX8K6awxBchagkDkAlIga6xqNOsUVXbIXyBqhxO0UUqQfAkgwGwInlm8qrfhO3Bl+Jw3TZVMWoeVDKQhPkIUU9SeX76IcHYylSQBEax1rnC7YNMbGVDUnX61Y2DQQ3JOqtTUoptpkdRmW1xXTovX1M640WVOEHZOgoJatEq0P5R8a0fixAC53kTQHiDyUOAbc6I9y/LVRa8i2w5SgAFDNyGp1/I1et4Q2pEmU+Sk8/Xnzqhwh4kxy+e9HOCKj3k6jbXn+FQfLou+mG5Azc4RAEERy035yda7trMoExr91F1662J5EkEgp19NaHsRvQdtB+FLpwTxvfztogOtAzFVTreulTXLvnz/KoL1zrXViXBxaprcA2ENBTzYOoK0gjqCoCK1ntP4HPfMew2Zy5V953SNJzJyz8M1ZLhDgDzZJgBaSfgoVtPalxu5busCzuW8q0rLmQoXqFJiTrGhNSXQxHdhMrg+x79CfZWY7tRjLzC0CfXU1nvZngtu9iF2260hxCM2VKhITDsafDSj/FOL7Rm6t8z7RS424krStKghWZopzEHwg66npVVg9nY4a9cXir1taXpISFIJ1VnIASSVmdBT4FzRJewWzZYaV7Al4rcyQhuVDMtQzHyEUw9gOHW96i3NslaroZkSAUt93IO5kBWhgdDTiOOmGbS2dLjZ7xYDraVpK0JXnJOUGRlOWao8QWyjGre5F204y5mkl5B7ohB8J18KTOnxpWFMtl4Nhr197GLVKFsjvVEAAODLojQyRJBI8qHu09plphxH8mlpQUA0+lIyETqcyNj+yrrXmJKtLjGXlLvQwkNp7p1taQCuIjP7unMHerfjHHmGMMdt3bxF4+4kpSQUEmToSEkgBPU0myS6mDqVTZVXS6bikMWevM9IiuDUgOiquSquTXM06A7r2uK9FMBxNGfAH/W/qfeugxNaV2PoRNypSUrWkN5Ar3dS5Kj6aUo5PhvcweJ5VsXf/TQOH8SS2wA8tKAlRyhWioPluarOLeKbZ62dtklRU4mAoiAmDI8zVFeYi2lxa0thZnUk6A+U6CqbFuIU3RSl1tII0StEAp9eoqOTJmbqSo7sOm0apwbk/W0vx/YIX1sW1QSD0I2NG/ZJfFt50cloHxKSTHrBqidwoFWVbkpBMFAzHSJ9Kl4A8Ld5AzEozg+IQRPhM/Aj5VU+UWKChk56eRsRxNY0Tr/AB9afw1ha5U77vIRuOtVbSMquo5a1fIf8IA0nfyqmDt8nRqIqMaguvceuFDKUgVUXONtQjXYaj4bT8qsBmVKRAUZ13jz+6s5v8OuErUktkLGsDUKHUGrJSa5RXpcGOVqb5XIuKsWSobz/GgoLLXekqMAcq6xRa5Mgz0NQWWHJ8ugFEfUtySTaS6IJeHVbgxI0Io2butJ8vrQNw7ZrlSlHU8vQUUsrJB02+nn6VVN0zswx3RSZKurnOYMdOnLeh6/uBoByEH1qVeOGdKqw2VK+tKPPUunUFSGFqJJrhRM1NeYioUGuzH0MjUqmAM60acFcAv4g2txtaG0oUEyufEYkgR00+dBzaJNfT3DODuWllastJTmBSp/MY0VJXGmqpgfCpJGPJ0YXw1wc9d3LlslSW1tBWbPMeFWUjTzpzBeDHbi8dtErQlbWbMozByGDEa1sVlhHc4046BCbi3Kv6yVJSr+6fjQ7wTZOIxu7WptaUq77KpSSAfGDoSINFC3GSYxYKt33GVEFTaikkbEjnRTwp2b3V433spZaPuqXMq8wkax51A7QbB1N9dOKbWEKdVCylQSZ2hREGtO7RWn3MNtfYcymYSVhqZKMgy6DUgGZjnFIk2APEfZvdWmVRKXG1KCStE+EqIAzA6ga71ZXfY/coSpRfZ8IJPvfZBPTyo04GafbwtwX2YAk92HJzBJygDXUSrYGuu1K8sUQLou98WnO5yKcAmY8QSQD4o3opUCbMk4T4Hdv2XXWloQGokLmTKSrSPIVzwbwO7iKXVNrQgNZZzzrmCiIj+ia0LsN8VpepGqsydPVtQH1p3sWsXGWLwvIW2PAJWkp9xDmbfpI+dIbfUFcJ7Ibh5lDq3WmS4AUoVJOokTGx8qz7GsOVbvOMqKVKbUUkoMpkdDX0Dh12i/SzbX1k+26lAWhUKCRCR40uJPgJEb1kfHnBj1q88tCHV2yVwHlCdVQYJ5mTE9aYICjXNeqrmpiFXQrmvRTAdTR92YokXI1gpQDHQ56AEVovZQf+I/7f3rq3TK8q99ijVSaxNr0/KCReAtRqgq8ySaosbYYAU0gAKJHujYg8zRo6qZ8xVPhXDeZw50hSj7gMwCdj5n8q69TBbeEUaPI96tjVhYgMqS0kqy+8RMT1kfiaGMRtTHjUoGTBKD/apviDiZ8A2oJaQgwpE/aG405TPmarbfGnVnu1LU4FaAHWDyiseMafmejy59/D4S7L+zX8Ef75ltUico184j8Ktrd0jnzNCnCT+RPdnltVvfXZSlSucaVROLhJpnXi+dBNdGE2EuBSSodYHok7/EzT9ysQZAqrwU922lKjyHz3NeXLpKT4kgfXXpV6mlEz5YW8zrpYJ4lhXeuqUYgc9J12qhucOyqjz0Ioyat4nU6dPMaVWXzjSSmVD036z9a5k3ZsNRkVNsSnTyj5/jXKr3L4um48udN3N83O8DfXymqlF6FKUDGulSqxPIo8Jl7dLCgFDUHUGm7UxJkCmME91TevhEj0O/8edOp0BFKPDouk9yUhXqtKrgupF85pVc24OtdmPoZGpfiA6wvC06hwBKihQUAoSCUmdRzFXnEnHV3eOJW6vIUpygNZkCCZmMxk0MzrqYHXp51f3nBd0hQGVCgdAoLTExPMztUqMoIW+1u+HdmGCW0lIJbJJBABnxak5R8qeX2xX5IP6DwzH6M8xH61DTfBV1OUpQFESlPeI8UEAiZgRIOtOL4JugpSQEFQSFJAUnxyQCBroRPPflSphRM4n7Q7u+ZDL/AHWQKCvAgpMpmNZPWvOGO0O8skd20tKm+SHE5gPQggj51CTwXdKSFoCFJI37xAgyRl319RpSHBV3r4W5Ead4jn8aVDonY/2h3l2Ud6tIShQWEITlTmSQQSJJVqOZqBxbxe/iC0Lf7uW0lIyJyiFEEzJM600OErqYyJ1Kh76d0xPOnTwXdfqt+neon5Tv5UqChrhjim4sXC5brAKhCgRKVDeCOdX+O9ql9ctlolttKtFd2kgqHSSSQPSqK44PuUIzqDcTBHeIkbanWIkgeppxXBV0ANESSQR3iPDAGpMxqTGnSgKL9rtfxEN5MzSjHvlvxfflJ84qlxDj68etFWjjiVNqJKlFPjVJzEFXSddqj3fB9w14nO7SjMBmDiVbkCYGsc/QGn18CXGyVsqMEx3gGxgjXoZHwpjpgio1xT1w0UqKVCCkwR0I3pmrEQFXoryvRQA6itH7I7ZTi3kIEqV3f9/X0FZy3W0/+n1oTdr5gNAfEuE/cKeOeyal76FeaG+DX7fk0FmxQ0ClCZXpK1AfGAdhQtxdi6rNlTiiSpSoQCdz102FGOYFRPTT8qyjtmuz3jTXQFR+MRRNyfibLsO2PhSM3eezqK1mVKMn1NcByCCnQjUeRrh066V4FeVUl5pOD3shK9JIBPnNFdwQsJnqPlINAvBKwtop5pPynWjNKSkAHlz+6rtbhcsccy+5P9I1UY5JaZ+rXv8A7/J3cXTzrymmsuo+0QnanUYJcBPjWgnkklcdNxXdgUqKkqjMNSevx5VCvsZWkeFZjlHL4muC13NfbO/C0jxWGXAEBxCZP7Rnl8BVXd4SQCC6JB1ypJJ+J/jWoFxir6z75H8eVMhTh95StfX76e0FkvryRL7DW9cy16bajUfCq0WyUHw5jB59N6sr5IAka6a1X+1lUpSJmpFMkrL/AAy5AeQBHizJUNdlD91NX74SqNd/nrVfaQkpOuboeX5U3ij8ujp5VFR5Lnk8A7fXUJ+dQrdciabv3tNPOuLJXhroiZ2Zguy2VLCREqIAnbUxWtYRwTnaLrJZeQk5R3zrpUpbeZKsuQgIBJ032nnWRNOlKgpJhQMg9COdHOHcUIbT+gunbUKOZbRb73xkAKWlRBGsTB51aZpIw1m2ZvwXZLJQ6lSCrvClxAylKTqd/dJAq2Rh+HreTNy6pwmArMtpJjMqEgpAQAQnw9DpQk7jyXLoOJeUyEpUe8WnOVrIgqyJEJzfhNWKcbTP/MGyCSZVbK8PRW2+iZqLJEu0GGZFtreUlIdLja5cClIAUjuc2Wd8qvj1qQlnCEuBTbzqyCFe+4YIWNxkkjL4vgRVOzjAT/8ANYiVGPZFaZpUcsp0kx9KTuLIJSoXrSSmYi1WFAKjMDpBmNfSlQy5YThgfDqXlLUl9CiFFxQLZUC4pSCiBudP2adfZwh5zOpxaZSCru+8SAoADQJRrJ1zaAmapHcZBWFi/akTtaLEyACDCdq8TiiQpKjfthUEZk2yjCfCoJUMuonNpEiPOkMJLF3CWkrDawvwwokOLkkq11RAjSPP0r1hjDgptKFhbKW3W1nK6pwqcUhSFe5OgCoVykdaGv5XTmC/b2woghSfZVRBIMQEwrXaelJjFcpK/wCUGpUAk/7Or7I0JGXaFKEilQF1YcO2D97bstrcLayc6VLdCj4CSkZkCAkgazqFCi4cBYQGlO5HwEzp3y8xygGQByIKTP7QrPcO4hQi4Zccu0uZCvVLKk5e8QUyTlkiYGmsa0U3vGlmrMU3eTMjJlbt1JTtESUmAoZBO/gHTUF1ZnHaDhTdrfvsNSEIVCQo5jqkHfnvQ0aJOPcTRc3zzzSitCyCFFJTMJAJynUag0ORVkehBnleilFdAUxDjdbF2CXgQq5SrQL7oT5/pIrHUVpfZHtc/wDb/wASp4IKeRRfr+CnU5HDG5L0/JteIOBsjTfaPWsU7VnM1znGwEfGAa0lV/mTkcKlAapI3B/EUEdptqFoC0nNBAJiNIgaHUmp5cM8apk9Lmx5OU+fIzDUmks7VKLGgA3M+mnP76iuDXTbl6VzUdW4JuAnyHy3IhY+qdq09tMpIP8AlWScHH/a2p08X4GtdYOsHfYx51p6ePxNNKD9TJz5PgayORej9/YrVNL1SCB+1P8AE1cHgoEAIenbNmG066AUwXA2rxgEjY/x1q4RxGhQnIDsN4051ibdrakety5ck1GeHlP9jrDOGGmATCCo7KVrHzry4sA6g+JpOpAgdD+6o1zxCyB/NqOYDMMx9Y3qnYx1lKVZmTqVfaPMkgb8gY+FN7TnjHN9Tu/t/pGvuEErVHfIzFWoAMQElUk/xvXlnwS0nMVPtgx4ClQiZjWdxtt514xjbGdahbDWN1aCQoEb85Hyri/4itEhJRb+IKJOpEAeexkfdTS7Epyn15/hf6cO8JoUP+JaC9J1ED3pG+uw9Nd6EuKsHNutCg426lUiUEGFDcRM/HY0zxDiiHHlKaR3aVR4dIBA1iNAKH33TT4I7pPls6uXpgVLsScvxqFb28+JWgq1YSpQkJMHbTlU4ooySsFFW9edxXtKnbOKj0MV6GKVKlbHR17PSFv50qVFhR77PXvsx60qVFiPRbedL2Y9aVKlYC9m86Xs560qVOx0cm2rz2TzpUqVsEj32Tzr0WlKlRbCjsWtaN2Tswm58+7/AMSlSrp0r+avfY5dYvlP7fkPCzVHxiItSOZI5evypUq08sm4MztOqyJoym5YJjXSPPnXTVj50qVZC6m6+hZ8O4YFXLaSSJOhHIxoa1qzYJ3MnSfWK9pVo6V1jdeZk6xbsivyJgw1L3gXPkQdR+dCF1ZlvMkmQFEeen+dKlXLqkm7NT9KySXhvgr/AG06gAepqOtwk0qVcu1Gp8ST6shXFwRoBFQXUKPMa0qVKilzbITtidNRTTGFHOMxkT1NKlRRByZbYZgPfLgqAQnlrr9Kubh0tnIkCE6b/upUqtjwrRRN2+T/2Q==

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's a matter of looking at why a person would buy/play WoD instead of something else. There's other games with combat rules, and if you make it into a dungeon-crawl game then there's no reason for it to be a selling point that you're playing vampires/wolves/wizards in a modern conspiracy setting, instead of any other type of adventurer fluff. Putting all taste aside in terms of what type of game is 'better', old WoD dominated a particular product segment - story-heavy, no trash-combat PnP where the emphasis was on using rule mechanics for manipulation, mystery/detective campaigns and 'intrigue', with combat being just one tool in the players' arsenal.

And if that's the product, then most player groups will need some assistance. Dropping the metaplot makes it less accessible to new players, because most will not have the capacity to design their own settings and stories without existing hooks that point them in an interesting direction. And those who can do without it don't need the WoD setting, they can do the same thing with DnD or any other system.

Dropping that aspect of play meant that, instead of dominating their own very sizeable market segment, WoD had to go head to head against WoC and every other grognard property, while also getting fans poached by their former lesser competitors.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's a matter of looking at why a person would buy/play WoD instead of something else. There's other games with combat rules, and if you make it into a dungeon-crawl game then there's no reason for it to be a selling point that you're playing vampires/wolves/wizards in a modern conspiracy setting, instead of any other type of adventurer fluff. Putting all taste aside in terms of what type of game is 'better', old WoD dominated a particular product segment - story-heavy, no trash-combat PnP where the emphasis was on using rule mechanics for manipulation, mystery/detective campaigns and 'intrigue', with combat being just one tool in the players' arsenal.

And if that's the product, then most player groups will need some assistance. Dropping the metaplot makes it less accessible to new players, because most will not have the capacity to design their own settings and stories without existing hooks that point them in an interesting direction. And those who can do without it don't need the WoD setting, they can do the same thing with DnD or any other system.

Dropping that aspect of play meant that, instead of dominating their own very sizeable market segment, WoD had to go head to head against WoC and every other grognard property, while also getting fans poached by their former lesser competitors.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

That makes me think of this very interesting conversation I had about how White Wolf often botches thematic hooks they try to use to underpin the game as high brow by often having a hamfisted secondary mechanism to it (ie, Beast) or by undermining it via how they present the setting (a basic example being their *obsession* with making vast numbers of complex secret societies everywhere).

Simply put, in case of VtM and VtR it's really not a case of being someone cursed to live forever surrounded by death. In truth, you're more like a badass superhuman (with the option of going "oh, woe is me" emo over the Beast or something) whose been let in on the whole secret society conspiratorial world order thing. Humanity is barely even a window-dressing outside of having something to point at Sabbat and frown disapprovingly. Just look at any of the official NPCs, and you quickly see all of them are first of all very ordinarily human in all their actions and modes of thinking, and their Humanity scores are ultimately completely arbitrary and any Path of Enlightenment score is nothing more than a window-dressing used occasionally for decoration.

Vampire is excellent as a sort of setting for the kind of conspiracy adventure-mystery that it provides, but its thematic hook has about as much credibility as the Anne Rice material it apes. Glitz and glamour of dark and brooding superior beings of the night, none of the pathos of Herzog's Nosferatu.

Promethean IMO remains the best thing White Wolf ever made precisely because its thematic elements are rock-solid and its hook is instantly gripping and oozes narrative power.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I've recently begun to think that a good start for any campaign is for character creation rules to be thrown in the trash bin and instead everyone sits around together and hammers out what they all think would be a very good lead cast for the story. For one thing, this allows for wildly differentiated characters with qualities that aren't part of gamist optimization, and it'll makes the GM's job of tailoring the story around the PCs a whole lot easier. Even if made with char creation rules the roundtable should be done so a good party dynamic can be made to provide solid ground for roleplaying and storytelling.

I also don't particularly like XP anymore either, it's far too much of a gamist element which doesn't even abstract anything.

Cautiously agree, with the proviso that we're talking about a plot-based game, not a dungeon crawl or DnD style tactical PnP wargame. I've done this before with my group, both as a player and a DM, and found that it works best where you take steps to make sure that it is still a game, with strategy that arises from rules/mechanics, and not just a larping session. One Planescape one that we did had a series of high level characters, of which only 1 was human, where each had a hidden aim that required a degree of 'poker play', trying to achieve your goal without giving yourself away, while working with the group enough that you don't all die.

E.g. one character seems like a high-level vampire-thief, but with a backstory of being a witch who for centuries sacrificed her children to absorb their youth, got discovered, hunted and gave herself vampirism and switched genders to throw off the scent before jumping through the planar portal to Sigil. One of the other characters is hunting her. Fortunately, he's also gone to Sigil with the intention of making up for his past by doing good deeds, so he doesn't show up as evil in detect alignment abilities, whereas the hunter is a fallen angel who shows up as evil if he doesn't take steps to mask it.Neither start off knowing that it's a player character who they're after, though another member of the group does (without knowing who they are), and has a goal that motivates him to drop half-truths to play the rest of the party off against each other. Another player plays the combined vengeful souls of all her infants that she's sacrificed, taken shape in an iron golem, but it's presented to the player as purely backstory (he's on the run from another PC, and has objectives diametically opposed to the shit-stirrer wizard.

But it only works if you take cues from board games with similar deception-based rule mechanics and think about how it can work as a strategy game, instead of just having the DM lead them by the nose in a choose-your-own adventure. Devise scenarios where players have to declare allegiances, throw a single member of the group under the bus, use their class abilities to draw each other out, etc. At a character ruleset level, the witch-vampire has to think of creative ways to get around the fact that everyone expect s him to be the party's designated thief, despite having only ONE LEVEL in thievery. His innate vampire skills can help with the stealth stuff, climbing walls is no problem, not too hard to use a touch of illusion to can sell mistform as just l33t stealth skills, but every now and then he's going to have to sell a 'hey look OVER THERE - A CAT WITH A FLUFFY TAIL' and hope that none of these high-level, many of them magic-sensitive, group-members don't notice that he's casting spells to disarm a trap that he should be able to manage by hand.

Of course, they don't all have the means of knowing what a hard trap v an easy trap is from looking at it, and the fact that the DM specifically states that he's deviating from the rules to alter some racial abilities for 'balance' (he wasn't, but it was so that players could be immediately certain that a player of that race didn't have that particular spell-like ability). And then you occasionally get a combat, maybe one engineered by another player who suspects things, where you could very easily survive if you just fucking use your higth-level mage spells from being a centuries old witch, but which would make it very fucking obvious that you aren't who you say you are, unless you've got leverage or a backup plan for keeping your opponent guessing.

I didn't win, but I did get a couple of very satisfying tactical victories - one being the use of vamp-hypnotism, illusion, deal with the mage to mess up other player's magic detection in return for promising to throw down with him against the golem if it came to it (didn't discover my character's own connection to the golem until I was out though) to impersonate the hunter, cast a bunch of high-level mage spells, and have the group conclude that he was the one hiding his true class for nefarious purposes, and leave him stranded on another plane.

Not saying it's a perfect implementation of the idea, and was in Planescape DnD instead of WoD. But WoD has a ton of abilities and class powers that make it easy to run that kind of campaign in the framework of rule based strategy, and the metalore gives a handy crutch for groups who haven't been playing so long that they're willing to give a DM 3 months of planning and lore creation to support that playstyle.

We're taking a break atm., and next campaign has already been pencilled in as traditional low-RP tactical combat dungeon crawl. But I'm hoping after that to use either WoD, or custom D&D setting to create a short campaign based on John Carpenter's 'The Thing', playing up the 'whodunnit' aspect that marked Carpenter's own approach (DVoD commentary has him stating that he explicitly approached it as a whodunit, with the climax being the 'reveal' when Macready applies his makeshift diagnostic test, and the remaining half hour being just the big action conclusion.

 

[Copper]

It's a matter of looking at why a person would buy/play WoD instead of something else. There's other games with combat rules, and if you make it into a dungeon-crawl game then there's no reason for it to be a selling point that you're playing vampires/wolves/wizards in a modern conspiracy setting, instead of any other type of adventurer fluff. Putting all taste aside in terms of what type of game is 'better', old WoD dominated a particular product segment - story-heavy, no trash-combat PnP where the emphasis was on using rule mechanics for manipulation, mystery/detective campaigns and 'intrigue', with combat being just one tool in the players' arsenal.

And if that's the product, then most player groups will need some assistance. Dropping the metaplot makes it less accessible to new players, because most will not have the capacity to design their own settings and stories without existing hooks that point them in an interesting direction. And those who can do without it don't need the WoD setting, they can do the same thing with DnD or any other system.

Dropping that aspect of play meant that, instead of dominating their own very sizeable market segment, WoD had to go head to head against WoC and every other grognard property, while also getting fans poached by their former lesser competitors.

Uh, what? I'd say Werewolf became far less combat-centric, and probably the rest of them too, with the removal of convenient baddies (Sabbat, Technocracy, Fomorians). Requiem attempted to improve the inter-faction politics of Vampire by scrapping the all-out war between the Sabbat and the Camarilla in favour of 5 factions all trying to fuck each other without things getting too out of hand.

The real fly in the ointment for WW was stuff like Fate, etc appealing more to the am. dram. roleplayers, although I'm sure there was more complications than that, plus their fans ossifying into a narrower and narrower comfort zone.

Cynically, I'd say it's the removal of cheap, anti-hero thrills that rustled the fans. All the old games emphasised the end times, and as they went through editions, escalated this more and more until they HAD to press the button. You might start out as nobody, but you'd be there at Raganrok, and maybe you could change the world! There are less absolutes in the new line-up, less opportunities for sperging about which faction is, ultimately, the biggest bad ass when the chips go down.

EDIT: Wait, I get it, it's like you have to read a good CoC adventure to think about how the structure of the whole thing would work. Well, published adventures - that's the way to do it, but it seems like WW weren't able to make the margins work for them there - maybe they tried to have too high quality control instead of pumping out any old crap like WotC.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Cautiously agree, with the proviso that we're talking about a plot-based game, not a dungeon crawl or DnD style tactical PnP wargame. I've done this before with my group, both as a player and a DM, and found that it works best where you take steps to make sure that it is still a game, with strategy that arises from rules/mechanics, and not just a larping session. One Planescape one that we did had a series of high level characters, of which only 1 was human, where each had a hidden aim that required a degree of 'poker play', trying to achieve your goal without giving yourself away, while working with the group enough that you don't all die.

Of course, I've come to conclude combat is the single most boring thing in PnP, unless it's combat that has a real flair of drama to it. Killing orcs et al has lost its glamour completely.

 

[Xathrodox86]

I've sometimes toyed with the idea of how a metaplot-spanning series of chronicles of Vampire (starting at the Dark Ages, covers historically important events up until Gehenna in six or less campaigns, with last campaign being a kind of roundup of everyone's favourite PCs from prior campaigns), and conclusion was that you'd have to rewrite the whole thing for it to provide a satisfying whole which has a point and possesses a strong sense of cohesion and direction. Metaplot only really works as an idea mine for your starting point, everything after YOUR starting point you should just do your own way, especially in order to shut up zealous fanboys.

Wasn't there a campaign called the "Transylvania Chronicles" where players started in the Middle Ages and ended up in Modern Nights? Of course the end boss was some kind of Methuselah and an Antediluvian was involved... I think.

There's a huge amount of degrees between what you describe and what you think I meant. Any GM worth his salt understands that the absolute basic rule that should never be went against is that no matter what, the PCs are the protagonists of the narrative of the game, and thus all events are only relevant via their agency and their actions. DnD is a game where players play a pack of Dynasty Warriors who loot and pillage everything they see (and do note, I personally think dragons should have no hit points period, since there's nothing more boring than PnP combat played straight, for dice rolls are anathema to skill and rock-em-sock-em percentile combat is anathema to engagement; a dragon fight should be in itself a puzzle, a rollercoaster, and a mini-dungeon all rolled into one, not chopping at its heels until it bleeds to death), in Call of Cthulhu the players play a group of disparate people in strange circumstances. In both, the style of story chosen needs to revolve around the players first and foremost, with agency paramount in the genre of the narrative. In case of DnD, that involves kicking ass and taking names. In case of CoC, that involves in solving the mystery and escaping relatively *physically* intact whether or not direct encounter with supernatural beings occurs. In case of White Wolf metaplot, it involves kicking Dev Pet NPCs in the nuts and letting the PCs hog the spotlight that's rightfully theirs.

That's why I've never involved such NPC's in my campaigns, be it Warhammer Fantasy, Dark Heresy or oWoD. I mean, there are NPC's but not the official ones like Beckett or Albrecht, or some other snowflake (altough Beckett is quite awesome and well written too). My PC's are always the most important peeps in any game, and I never let my NPC's steal their spotlight. That would be retarded.

 

[Excidium II]

Fuck all of you - Werewolf is the one that's most improved by the reboot.

No more Metis - no more wolf born either. Both big improvements, I shudder to think at the 'Malkavian' take on being wolf-born
No more 'Let's wander around in Crinos form all the time, because why would we use anything else?'
No more early nineties 'Mother Gaia is dying' eco-warrior stuff is an improvement in my book, as is moving away from just ripping of Pat Mills/2000AD (Slaine/Finn)
Spirit mechanics still suck, but the theme behind them and the spirit host was improved a lot too.

Also, the theme is not that different - you're still 'supposed' to be protecting reality, even if more as predatory assholes than as counter-culture heroes riddled with white guilt.

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

That's a good sum up of why I don't like WtF. And no, the theme is completely different, what makes werewolf is not that you're spiritual border patrol, but the pure fatalism of the setting.

 

[Alex]

As bad as NWoD games can be, at the very least they don't have several "god-npcs" running around which exist to either form part of an extensive metaplot which players don't care and/or cannot interact with, or be absurdly strong adversaries that can vaporize the PCs instantly if they feel like it. Moreover, werewolves were nerfed to hell and back compared with vampires (and practically everyone else), which caused lots of butthurt in the fanbase

Antediluvians should exist for similar reason as the Gods in Deities and Demigods; to provide a fun end game challenge. With the added bonus that you can diablerize them.

 

[mondblut]

That sounds interesting, but why Tzimisce?

only they got vicissitude.

 

[Excidium II]

Please use spoiler tags for gore

 

[Alex]

only they got vicissitude.

Shouldn't the Tzimisce antediluvian have koldunic sorcery instead?

 

[roll-a-die]

Shouldn't the Tzimisce antediluvian have koldunic sorcery instead?

No the Kuldun's and Blood Sorcery were created as ways to get closer to an Antideluvians level of blood mastery.

Viscis is literally the Antediluvian as a fragmented disease, it's basically the physical form of Malkavian Madness Syndrome.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Viscis is literally the Antediluvian as a fragmented disease, it's basically the physical form of Malkavian Madness Syndrome.

Well this is a bit of a difficult subject tho, since the true nature of Vicissitude has been retconned at least three times I think. Once it was caused by an alien virus, after all.

But overall point is that yes, the Tzimisce Antediluvian is the unchallenged master and first practioner of Vicissitude.

 

[roll-a-die]

Well this is a bit of a difficult subject tho, since the true nature of Vicissitude has been retconned at least three times I think. Once it was caused by an alien virus, after all.

But overall point is that yes, the Tzimisce Antediluvian is the unchallenged master and first practioner of Vicissitude.

Very true. That's just the consensus I've found talking to people who play the game.

 

[Volrath]

So is this still going ahead?

 

[Irenaeus II]

Dumb idea was killing off the classic WoD and going on with the nWOD shit. Took them 10 years to realize nobody wants VTR and the entire metaplot and background were WOD's primary selling points. Well, better late than never. I am eager to see the past decade adapted to the VtM metaplot. Baba Yaga attempted to seize the control of Ukraine but was thwarted by an alliance of Tremere and the Technocracy! The Sabbat-driven rabble kicking the assamites out of arabic states! Tzimisce pretending to be Malkavians ruin the career of a scientist who has discovered the alien vicissitude virus frozen on the surface of a comet! Gonna be fun.

Yes, please.

 

[DavidBVal]

Wasn't there a campaign called the "Transylvania Chronicles" where players started in the Middle Ages and ended up in Modern Nights? Of course the end boss was some kind of Methuselah and an Antediluvian was involved... I think.

The Giovanni Chronicles. I own the first two books, and while there's some good parts, including the initial scenes, it's a mere sucession of poorly connected ideas that isn't really a good adventure.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Finally took a look at VTR's 2nd edition... And it's probably the best thing they ever made in terms of mechanics and mechanics-roleplaying synergy.

The Giovanni Chronicles. I own the first two books, and while there's some good parts, including the initial scenes, it's a mere sucession of poorly connected ideas that isn't really a good adventure.

My own experience with WW's published chronicles is that all of them have some point where the players watch NPCs do stuff because of muh metaplot on the devs part.

 

[Grunker]

I played through all of non-modern Giovanni chronicles last year. Good GM, but pretty shitty content tbh. Linear and all the worst fluffy fantasy and edginess of vampire.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Finally took a look at VTR's 2nd edition... And it's probably the best thing they ever made in terms of mechanics and mechanics-roleplaying synergy.


My own experience with WW's published chronicles is that all of them have some point where the players watch NPCs do stuff because of muh metaplot on the devs part.

Beckett says hi. Altough he gets a free pass, because... well, he's Beckett.

 

[DavidBVal]

DMing Vampire and making it fun in the long term is often a challenge. It's true that WW modules are often subpar, linear and just based in a few "so shocking scenes" like said Giovanni Chronicles. But beyond that, the problem is the very nature of the setting, and a ruleset that favors simplicity, very good for rping but repetitive in combat.

I've seen many good DMs fail, because in the end their games derived into "superheroes" games or boring political soup that players didn't really care about because, by definition, they're never more than pawns. Characters may not know, but players do. It is therefore much harder to keep them hooked in this kind of game than in a traditional fantasy one.

My own basic rules to make game a VtM game fun in the long term:

1. Keep darkness in the dark. Make sure most NPCs are mortals. Sometimes all of them in a single adventure. Vampires are supposed to be rare and powerful beings, make sure players feel they are exactly that. Also, mortals are more fun and versatile: they love money, they crave for sex, they may have interesting day jobs, they get broken limbs, get poisoned, addicted to drugs, they rape and get raped, they are vulnerable, sometimes they are heroic and selfless, sometimes they murder over jealousy or an inheritance. True that some vampires have a social life, and may have more interesting backgrounds, historical, etc, but there's a limited number of things you can do at 3 am, and for vampires it's all about blood and survival when they grow old, so I find them less interesting overall. Don't overplay them, because once you do, there's no way back. When your players enter a certain scene with many NPCs they don't know, they shouldn't think there's for sure at least one vampire there.

2. If you are not going to crossover, don't crossover. Unless you really have a reason to introduce werewolves, changelings, mages, etc, stay away from it. Most of it is complete shit anyways, and unneccessary. There's already the Tremere for magic, and in the unlikely case you focus on wilderness, you have the Gangrel, or just the Lupines as portrayed in original Vampire. Now, if your chronicle idea revolves about a covenant, or about wrewolves, sure, go ahead. But by default, cut it off. WoD became a bloated circus of nonsense after the very first books. Sometimes less is more.

3. Remind them what they are. Play often with their vulnerabilities. Vampires are not superheroes, they are cursed monsters. They frenzy and kill their loved ones, they combust to sunlight, they go bananas when someone lits a match, they are cathatonic and vulnerable for over half of the day. Make sure to bring in some of these often. Make them feel the beast is always there, and eventually it will win. Show them how it has won over other vampires. Feeding should never feel like a routine to them, either. That can be hard over time, but try to make blood scarce and valuable to them.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I think VtM itself is rather poorly suited for that approach I generally would go with myself because of its huge emphasis on a global supernatural society, (even without crossovers making it completely bananas) which I think is the biggest Achilles Heel in White Wolf writing without exception (enough with the goddamn supernatural societies), and the mechanics and metaplot itself being considerably closer to a dark superhero genre game rather than what they claim to be going for. Humanity is my poster example of this, being a kind of half-assed morality gauge rather than anything reflecting being human. That's one reason why I can say without a doubt that as an overall product, VtR2E is hands down the best thing White Wolf has ever made, for one example the new Humanity and Willpower mechanics are superb.

Now Humanity tests are provoked by things like surviving an injury that would have killed you as a mortal (or injury that would have just seriously injured you at higher Humanity levels), or simply realizing that you have "lived" far beyond a hundred years old (one of the hardest listed tests is for surviving 500 years). Another touch I really like is that all but the very lowest levels of Humanity require regular HUMAN social contact, so understandably a vampire who just closes up inside a castle in the ass end of nowhere will be a little fucked up in the head. Only change I'd make to would be to Humanity tests involving violence and murder, where I think the key clause on many levels should be killing and maiming in a manner that's simply not possible (say, you crush a dude's head with Vigor or have a shootout where you just keep healing injuries each round and pump more lead to the other side). Touchstones are also another fantastic new touch to Willpower I cannot adore enough, these being things that give the character a connection to their old identity and renewed sense of purpose by visiting them, such as people they knew while still alive, their own grave, the house they grew up in, or something to that effect. It adds a nice touch of psychological vulnerability and genuine humanity to the characters when the game recognizes how important just having a guy to down some brews with and hang out with can be to not going insane.

Personally, I'd make some little addition clauses to the basic rules for a Vampire game (that isn't a globetrotting metaplot-spanning megacampaign):

1) Dracula is important. The big thing most games in this regard miss IMO is that they lack that whole Old World setup (really, 18th to 19th century and early 20th century is probably the most ideal period for Vampire). Similarly, the PCs need to very much realize that in this game they are the ones playing as Dracula. The key foundation in the story should be the human society they move amidst unseen, which can be something like London or court of Versailles, or some dark wooded mountains in the ass-end of Austria-Hungary. Far more important than the Masquerade should be to understand that people are probably nearly 100% correct in thinking you as a dark agent of Satan on Earth if they discover you.

2) Though if you do crossover, never ever use White Wolf canon universe. Just cook up some kind of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen kind of setup.

3) Besides vulnerabilities, a sense of power is also important. In fact, power itself should be treated as a different kind of vulnerability. The rays of sunlight or fire do not seem nearly as significant if they aren't a huge break from the norm, where the PCs are insurmountable danger to mortals (in this regard, I really love how sunlight damage in 2E is scaled to Humanity level and Blood Potency). But what exactly can a PC even do with their power? Ultimately power itself should be nothing more than just more burden, because of the growing realization that it cannot be used for anything lasting or important. I've never taken a particular liking to the Beast, I've found it kind of a hamfisted attempt at forcing a kind of lose condition. The way I see it, the key should be reach the situation depicted in Herzog's reimagining of Nosferatu, where the defining feelings of the immortal vampire's existence are isolation and futility. In fact, it might be interesting to play the situation to such a point where the horrifying realization is that even the sun cannot actually kill you, and there will never be any escape or respite.


Also, I'll repeat myself and point out that Takashi Miike's newest film is a perfect adaptation of a WoD crossover/how it tends to turn out anyway: