World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Vincente]

You're pretty much asking the same questions that Ellison herself was asking in her article. In order for a characterization of her as "arbitrary" to be valid, she would have had to make a conclusive judgement (e.g. "This game should be banned.") She never said anything like that. She certainly didn't paint the devs in a positive light, but is she required to? All she did was tell the truth, describe the scene, and observe that she found it disturbing. She even recognized the irony in being OK with overblown mass murder but finding sexual violence unsettling anyway. She liked the shooting but didn't like the rape. How is this substantially different from saying she liked the graphics but hated the music? She talked about it too long? Is that really the worst you can say about it?

Honestly, what would you rather she wrote?

I don't think she really asked any question in the end. Her conclusion is that she felt manipulated and that women get the short end of the stick in video games, which... okay, sure, not disagreeing with that, but if that's your takeaway from Indiscriminate Murder Simulator 2, then maybe you're barking up the wrong tree here. Which ties into my concern with her as lead writer for a game full with violence, abuse and sex. Unlike most people here, I don't really care if the new game deals with sexual identity, it's fitting for a Vampire game in 2019 and Bloodlines had at least one well done gay character. But when the lead writer sees a room full of blood, gore and general fuckshit and all she can blurt out is "women in video games, huh, guys? "...

Honestly, what would you rather she wrote?

If I knew, I'd be a writer at PCGamer and Codex would scream "learn2code" at me.

Hey buddy i think you got the wrong guy

 

[fantadomat]

If you think that hacking is useless then you are fucking retards and should go jump off a very very high building. Also you can't max out everything you retard,maybe you used too much cheats. Tho most likely you haven't even played the game and you are just trolling.

I do hate it when people say that hacking is useless just because they end up reading passwords out of a walkthrough, but Bloodlines does give you a shitton of points and ways that render choice into a formality.

> Bloodbuff and Auspex are nice ways to buff Stealth, Lockpicking and Hacking by +2 on convenience. That renders much of the obstacles moot for a long time.

> Because of the way character creation and EXP expenditures work, you'll generally put all of your points of each category into a single skill.

> On top of that, if you know the maximum points that you can have to still benefit from Skill Books and Teachers you end up saving on dozens of EXP in a game that already gives you nearly 300.

> Just consider Scholarship. It gives a bonus to Persuasion, so its a great skill to have early game. More often than not your character will leave out of the gate with 3 points in it. Thats for Malks, Toreador and Tremere if I'm not mistaken. Beckett then gives you the last two point for free. Meaning that with minimal Intelligence investment you can get the final points of Computers, Melee, Dodge and Firearms. Just for the sake of it.

So I do think its important to recognize that the character sheet in Bloodlines didn't really reach its full potential. The latter half of the game doesn't give you reasons to need skills such as Seduction, Intimidation or even much of a commitment to Stealth that could possibly leave you stretched thin for latter playthroughs.

It is one of those games where the uniqueness of a playthrough stems from which clan you are and which superpowers you have.

Which is more of a reason to mourn the sheet should things become more simple in BL2.

I agree with all this mate,but those are things we know from years of replaying the game,it is not something you get the moment you sit down and play it for a first time. I do agree that bloodbuff is OP and should have been scaling with points invested in the discipline. Even with 300 points you still can't max all the shit in the game. Every RPG does have system that have an optimal build,and rpg fans do see trough it fast. It doesn't mean it is a bad one.

 

[True Ukrainian]

If you think that hacking is useless then you are fucking retards and should go jump off a very very high building. Also you can't max out everything you retard,maybe you used too much cheats. Tho most likely you haven't even played the game and you are just trolling.

I do hate it when people say that hacking is useless just because they end up reading passwords out of a walkthrough, but Bloodlines does give you a shitton of points and ways that render choice into a formality.

> Bloodbuff and Auspex are nice ways to buff Stealth, Lockpicking and Hacking by +2 on convenience. That renders much of the obstacles moot for a long time.

> Because of the way character creation and EXP expenditures work, you'll generally put all of your points of each category into a single skill.

> On top of that, if you know the maximum points that you can have to still benefit from Skill Books and Teachers you end up saving on dozens of EXP in a game that already gives you nearly 300.

> Just consider Scholarship. It gives a bonus to Persuasion, so its a great skill to have early game. More often than not your character will leave out of the gate with 3 points in it. Thats for Malks, Toreador and Tremere if I'm not mistaken. Beckett then gives you the last two point for free. Meaning that with minimal Intelligence investment you can get the final points of Computers, Melee, Dodge and Firearms. Just for the sake of it.

So I do think its important to recognize that the character sheet in Bloodlines didn't really reach its full potential. The latter half of the game doesn't give you reasons to need skills such as Seduction, Intimidation or even much of a commitment to Stealth that could possibly leave you stretched thin for latter playthroughs.

It is one of those games where the uniqueness of a playthrough stems from which clan you are and which superpowers you have.

Which is more of a reason to mourn the sheet should things become more simple in BL2.

Yeah, Bloodlines is far too generous with experience and by the end of the game you would maxed most of your core stats out and probably 2 out of your 3 disciplines. Bloodlines 2 seems to be taking the superpower centric approach as well. Your clan choice would be picking which part of the discipline tree you want to unlock. I hope they at least implement thin blood mechanics like having a very low blood pool.

 

[fantadomat]

I though they picked Seattle bc it is a shithole hell in Earth. But then i heard they are from Seattle, so they pretty much are proud for making that shithole i guess.

I found it really amusing how the guy on the right was fucked up on drugs .

 

[Alexios]

According to these people Malkavians in Bloodlines are ableist. Because we wouldn't want to offend people who actually do talk to stop signs.

They already p much said that. The quote is buried ITT somewhere. Something about treating whatever the proper word for insanity is with consideration and respect.

They are fiercely determined not to offend anyone (except you lot ofc, but you don’t count and never did).

Indeed - I was not being ironic. These people have surpassed the possibility of parody.

 

[Metro]

We can rely on Wesp to make a fan patch to remove all the SJW propaganda.

 

[fantadomat]

We can rely on Wesp to make a fan patch to remove all the SJW propaganda.

A year or two later.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

It isn't, I was deliberately blowing something out of proportion to show what it looks like, glad you caught it

The game was banned in Australia because of an implied rape scene. Of course that's not Ellison's fault, she didn't ask for a ban (afaik). I agree with you there. But I just skimmed through her HM2 article and she did drone on about her safe space in a game where everybody gets horribly murdered (where one of the muderers is female, but she might not have been aware of that). What is even weirder is that she recognizes that the rape scene was part of a movie shoot and that framing made it apparently semi-alright, even though she wished the game could've provided that framing earlier.
So fictional rape, regardless of the artistic intent, is only okay if it's two virtual layers deep? Is only fake rape allowed and actual rape is tabu? What? I'm not automatically counting her out as a writer for video games since this is apparently her first major contribution, but this type of arbitrariness for the sake of being gender woke is just yikes to me and doesn't exactly instill confidence when Bloodlines is full of horrible shit that happens to both genders.

You're pretty much asking the same questions that Ellison herself was asking in her article. In order for a characterization of her as "arbitrary" to be valid, she would have had to make a conclusive judgement (e.g. "This game should be banned.") She never said anything like that. She certainly didn't paint the devs in a positive light, but is she required to? All she did was tell the truth, describe the scene, and observe that she found it disturbing. She even recognized the irony in being OK with overblown mass murder but finding sexual violence unsettling anyway. She liked the shooting but didn't like the rape. How is this substantially different from saying she liked the graphics but hated the music? She talked about it too long? Is that really the worst you can say about it?

Honestly, what would you rather she wrote?

Speaking from experience, she's not worth fucking. Stop white knighting her.

 

[HanoverF]

“We have to be very sensitive about how we handle things like mental illness and that was a concern for us and for Paradox, in how we can make a mature story but if we do anything, we do our homework and make sure that we are punching up and not punching down.”

Heeheehee.

Say goodnight.

If Paradox are so concerned with punching up why does all the ridiculously fake combat in the trailer look like Vampire Bum Fights: The Game

 

[Reinhardt]

Because if hobo is white cis male he's still more privileged than black billionaire or some woman so punching him is punching up.

 

[Delterius]

Yeah, Bloodlines is far too generous with experience and by the end of the game you would maxed most of your core stats out and probably 2 out of your 3 disciplines. Bloodlines 2 seems to be taking the superpower centric approach as well. Your clan choice would be picking which part of the discipline tree you want to unlock. I hope they at least implement thin blood mechanics like having a very low blood pool.

Now now, the super power approach isn't a fair criticism to Bloodlines of all things. One of the notable things about the game is that while it defaults to the power growth of a typical RPG protagonist, it recognizes all the ways it stretches and breaks the setting.

The point of the latter half of the game is to point out that your sudden exponential power growth from Hollywood forwards surprises and shocks everyone in the city. And the game makes a point of leaving reasons for us to speculate. From LaCroix's domination to the strange cabby. From Isaac's calibrated business like praise and hopes that you'll see LaCroix for the shit he is to how Ming Xiao goes from trying to murder you at every turn to try and persuade for your support.

In part, I'd be disappointed if BL2 gives you the same power curve without reasons to speculate as to why you have a strangely high generation. But even so, this being the World of Darkness, we always simply need a reminder that there's always a bigger, badder monster out there lurking in the night.

 

[the_1990]

So is the consensus now that the game will suck? Initial hype died down?

For me literally everything rests on the mod support.

If it is anything less that Elder-Scrolls and Fallout level this game gets a hard pass from me. I want the original engine used to make the game, I want people to be able to make massive overhauls and total conversions, that would mitigate most of the other issues the game seems likely to have.

If all they do is let you switch out a few skins or tweak stats that just won't be good enough.

 

[Prime Junta]

Now now, the super power approach isn't a fair criticism to Bloodlines of all things. One of the notable things about the game is that while it defaults to the power growth of a typical RPG protagonist, it recognizes all the ways it stretches and breaks the setting.

And even more notably, it leaves you guessing. If they had provided a nice, pat explanation for it at the end, the impact would have been much lessened.

 

[Delterius]

Now now, the super power approach isn't a fair criticism to Bloodlines of all things. One of the notable things about the game is that while it defaults to the power growth of a typical RPG protagonist, it recognizes all the ways it stretches and breaks the setting.

And even more notably, it leaves you guessing. If they had provided a nice, pat explanation for it at the end, the impact would have been much lessened.

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

Unfortunately we are mostly left with the priorities of the games journos when asking questions so there's a lot of wiggle room in their wording. Some people speak of choosing a clan, others joining and a few aligning.

I did read that according to lore even if a Caitiff diablerizes a clan cainite, they are not supposed to suddenly acquire the merits and flaws of that clan. They simply become a higher generation Caitiff. In fact, such a character is the Prince of Cairo, I think. Problem is that I can't tell what in the frozen hells is supposed to be old and current lore and I highly suspect that neither can the loremasters anymore.

But on the other hand, a Thin Blood customizes their merit and flaw, being more of a unique character than a clan member so it hardly matters. Remaining a thin blood with your unique disciplines, merit and flaw but suddenly, say, gaining one point in Presence because you Diablerized a Toreador shouldn't be much of a stretch.

Still, I digress. I doubt we'll be left guessing. But I'm hopeful that the power hierarchy of the world of darkness is going to continue to make sense AND that it will feel like you are just one cog in the ever growing circles of bigger assholes pushing you around. That's what matters most, in the end.

 

[Life of the Party]

 

[Prime Junta]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

 

[Nines_Anarch]

On a more positive side, maybe they only gave her to write Malkavian dialogs as she's a natural at it.

According to these people Malkavians in Bloodlines are ableist. Because we wouldn't want to offend people who actually do talk to stop signs.

Bloodlines 2 will be funny if it is similar to that video. I'm hyped now.

I cannot understand all the hate around it. Come on, at least we will laugh our asses off.

Playing as Malkavians will feel very natural.

 

[Delterius]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

 

[Roguey]

And even more notably, it leaves you guessing. If they had provided a nice, pat explanation for it at the end, the impact would have been much lessened.

Only if you ignore all the characters who say "It's literally Caine."

Edit: for posterity

Spoiler

 

[Nano]

I’ve gotta say, I was feeling good about this until I read Brian’s blog post. That’s some of the most lifeless prose I’ve ever seen. I hope he just had a marketing flack write it for him while he works on the game, but to me it reads like the emails my sister used to send me when she was on too much Lithium. Is Brian Mitsoda okay?

Compare it with Brian's blogs about Torn from 2001. Better or worse?

https://web.archive.org/web/20020210093329/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/april01/torn1/index2.shtm
https://web.archive.org/web/20010604020148/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/may01/torn2/
https://web.archive.org/web/20010617153020/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/may01/torn3/index2.shtm

 

[Cross]

Yeah, Bloodlines is far too generous with experience and by the end of the game you would maxed most of your core stats out and probably 2 out of your 3 disciplines. Bloodlines 2 seems to be taking the superpower centric approach as well. Your clan choice would be picking which part of the discipline tree you want to unlock. I hope they at least implement thin blood mechanics like having a very low blood pool.

Now now, the super power approach isn't a fair criticism to Bloodlines of all things. One of the notable things about the game is that while it defaults to the power growth of a typical RPG protagonist, it recognizes all the ways it stretches and breaks the setting.

The point of the latter half of the game is to point out that your sudden exponential power growth from Hollywood forwards surprises and shocks everyone in the city. And the game makes a point of leaving reasons for us to speculate. From LaCroix's domination to the strange cabby. From Isaac's calibrated business like praise and hopes that you'll see LaCroix for the shit he is to how Ming Xiao goes from trying to murder you at every turn to try and persuade for your support.

That was actually one of the weaker aspects of Bloodlines' plot. Your exponential power growth never amounted to any meaningful story development, since you were still being ordered around like an errand boy until the very end.

Making the player character a subordinate to a higher-up in some organization is rarely a good idea in an RPG (unless it's the setup for escaping that organization, a la Deus Ex), since it tends to lead to railroading and contrived restrictions on what the player character can do.

 

[Lacrymas]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

Diablerie is always taboo, no matter the context. The only vampires who can get away with it are really powerful ones who use it to change the status quo, like Giovanni diablerizing Cappadocius, or Tremere diablerizing Saulot (unsuccessfully). If you are a run-off-the-mill vampire, you'll be staked and executed the moment you enter a Camarilla area. It isn't something you are banned from using only in peaceful times, casually doing it because it's war isn't a justification. The Sabbat and the Assamites don't condemn it, however.

 

[Zombra]

Art is not a safe space, at least not when you are voluntarily subjecting yourself to it, knowing what to expect.

The bolded part is key. Whether Codexers recognize it or not, rape has a different tenor from killing; it's not simply "like murder but not as bad". The author clearly didn't expect a rape scene; that's what that whole article is about.

Where artists create stuff out of their own pocket, they are free to create whatever they want with no obligated considerations, especially Cara's safe spaces.

Of course they are. And previewers are free to react to that and write about those reactions. That's their job.

She misjudges the product by viewing it through a completely false and misguided lens and shows hypocrisy while doing it. It's poor taste and that's abominable.

That's your opinion, because I guess you see rape and murder as essentially the same. Before this scene, I would not have described Hotline Miami as that series about killing and rape. Your argument only makes sense if you don't see the distinction.

She's (probably) aware of the power she holds as an ideologue and spilling virtual ink to basically bully the developers is ...not good. It's an attempt at censorship, plain and simple.

lol. So it's "bullying" now to say you didn't like something about a game? Jesus christ. Again: nowhere does she make any kind of call for a ban. She says "I don't like this and I'm confused about it." That's it.

It's bizarre how many people are trying to play both sides of the "free speech" coin.

It's not a review because the entire piece is slanted towards that rape scene from the very beginning, clearly showing bias and where the important for her moment is.

So what's the problem? You hold her personally responsible because the government of Australia holds the same bias?

I don't think she really asked any question in the end. Her conclusion is that she felt manipulated and that women get the short end of the stick in video games, which... okay, sure, not disagreeing with that, but if that's your takeaway from Indiscriminate Murder Simulator 2, then maybe you're barking up the wrong tree here.

As I touched on above, I slept on it and decided that it actually does make sense to be shocked by a rape scene in a combat game. Killing is horrible and rape is horrible, but that doesn't make them a single, shared context. They're disturbing for very different reasons - being desensitized to one doesn't mean that suddenly introducing the other will have no impact on the audience. In fact it would be very weird to expect such. When I play Murder Simulator 2 I do have certain expectations. Hey, it might be awesome for the devs to shatter those expectations; that's what artists are supposed to do - but if they do it in a disturbing way, I might talk about that.

Which ties into my concern with her as lead writer for a game full with violence, abuse and sex. Unlike most people here, I don't really care if the new game deals with sexual identity, it's fitting for a Vampire game in 2019 and Bloodlines had at least one well done gay character. But when the lead writer sees a room full of blood, gore and general fuckshit and all she can blurt out is "women in video games, huh, guys?"...

Fair enough. I'll repeat that expectation is key here: entering a situation knowing you're going to be dunked in apple juice, and then having lemon juice squirted in your eyes ... it makes sense to go "Hey, that's not why I'm here." There's certainly nothing wrong if you don't share her responses and doubt what she writes will be to your taste.

I don't even remember what got this conversation started in the first place ... oh yeah, it was when others characterized Ellison as a "campaigner" for banning and censorship. I think you and I at least agree that's not the case. Anyway it's perfectly valid to feel that you might not like the game since the point of view of the writer is not one you care to read about. So ... sorry I guess. Hope you can find some games out there by writers you like.

 

[Delterius]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

Diablerie is always taboo, no matter the context. The only vampires who can get away with it are really powerful ones who use it to change the status quo, like Giovanni diablerizing Cappadocius, or Tremere diablerizing Saulot (unsuccessfully). If you are a run-off-the-mill vampire, you'll be staked and executed the moment you enter a Camarilla area. It isn't something you are banned from using only in peaceful times, casually doing it because it's war isn't a justification. The Sabbat and the Assamites don't condemn it, however.

Hmmm. I'm not saying that you can get away with it, only that with the city at war and everyone already hating you by default your best bet is becoming an autarch with at best connections in a clan. Its like if the whole game is a longer version of Bloodlines' final act where people don't have that much time to deal with every single problem, you being one of the big ones flying under the radar until its too late.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yep.

Of the vampires we meet, LaCroix is the only one in a position where he just conceivably might get away with it, or driven half-mad with ambition at least could convince himself that he might get away with it, wherefore his lust for the Sarcophagus. If it had actually contained a sleeping methuselah, anyone else would have had to be colossally stupid to even consider it. Other than the Sabbat of course.

(Moreover, even if he had gotten away with it, it's more likely that the methuselah's far more potent vitae would have overwhelmed LaCroix. The methuselah would have un-lived again in LaCroix's skin. A being with the power of an ancient with none of the lethargy – something truly terrifying, not to mention world-shaking.)