Review VD holds forth on Dragon Age Quest Design

[Naked Ninja]

Hiver, he's not really looking to discuss, he's just baiting you for a reaction so he can argue. Don't bother, I'm not.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Naked Ninja, how about you do a poll here? Because at the moment it seems most people here like time limits in some fashion.

No offense, but I no longer really trust the Codex as a source of insight, you'll notice how rarely I post here these days. A few posters are still decent but overall the signal-to-noise ratio is getting really bad. I posted in this thread because I helped VD write the article so I thought I'd respond to any feedback.

I'll be honest, a lot of this decline talk annoys me. Sure, I haven't been here from the beginning, so perhaps my opinion isn't that valid, but from what I've read of older topics and just the general feeling I get when browsing now, in the present, it doesn't seem that there has been this decrease in quality that so many people talk about. And it seems to be better here than when I first joined, at least.

But aside from that, what about right now? Are you getting a lot of noise directed at you at the moment? Because in this thread, right now, it sure looks like there are about 4-5 people saying that time limits are a good idea, and giving good, well-thought-out reasons to boot.

 

[Darth Roxor]

As far as time limits go, I'll agree with Jarl and say they're a big no-no for main quests and ok for sidequests, but that's because of my completionist playstyle (I have to go EVERYWHERE, into EVERY BLOODY CORNER of the map or I'll have headaches for the rest of the week), and since, for me, one of the major sides of RPGs is freedom of exploration, limiting this freedom by introducing a 'game over after x days' limit is a giant turn-off. It wouldn't be half as bad if the time limit was not 'game over after x days' but 'you're gonna get seriously fucked after x days'. As for sidequests, they're optional and don't flash a game over after screwing up, so time limits for these are okay. If you currently don't have the time or just don't feel like doing them, you might as well not take them and return later.

 

[1eyedking]

Games are not Art

I disagree. They are first and foremost a business venture, true, but we all know it doesn't end there. For instance we are aware that to make the really good ones you require copious amounts of skill, knowledge, and dedication.

The basis of everything that is art.

 

[Data4]

Games are not Art

I disagree. They are first and foremost a business venture, true, but we all know it doesn't end there. For instance we are aware that to make the really good ones you require copious amounts of skill, knowledge, and dedication.

The basis of everything that is art.

So you're saying an electrical engineer is an artist?

 

[Forest Dweller]

Art is a selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgements.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I hope AoD will have a clearly distinct positive character and a happy ending. Otherwise, it shall not be art.

 

[Forest Dweller]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... 419#981419

 

[hiver]

Hiver, he's not really looking to discuss, he's just baiting you for a reaction so he can argue. Don't bother, I'm not.

Yeah i know, thats why i told him he is a tool and to shut up - to skip to the heart of the matter.

 

[kris]

Naked Ninja, how about you do a poll here? Because at the moment it seems most people here like time limits in some fashion.

No offense, but I no longer really trust the Codex as a source of insight, you'll notice how rarely I post here these days. A few posters are still decent but overall the signal-to-noise ratio is getting really bad. I posted in this thread because I helped VD write the article so I thought I'd respond to any feedback.

I'll be honest, a lot of this decline talk annoys me. Sure, I haven't been here from the beginning, so perhaps my opinion isn't that valid, but from what I've read of older topics and just the general feeling I get when browsing now, in the present, it doesn't seem that there has been this decrease in quality that so many people talk about. And it seems to be better here than when I first joined, at least.

Trust me, the difference is big. The thing is that many of the best old threads are not brought up though. I suspect though that those old threads of quality would not be accused of being "wall of text".

 

[Naked Ninja]

I'll be honest, a lot of this decline talk annoys me. Sure, I haven't been here from the beginning, so perhaps my opinion isn't that valid, but from what I've read of older topics and just the general feeling I get when browsing now, in the present, it doesn't seem that there has been this decrease in quality that so many people talk about. And it seems to be better here than when I first joined, at least.

Sorry if it annoys you. And of course it is subjective. That being said, it's my game, so I will trust my own view on the matter, in terms of whether the Codex is worth polling or not.

But aside from that, what about right now? Are you getting a lot of noise directed at you at the moment? Because in this thread, right now, it sure looks like there are about 4-5 people saying that time limits are a good idea, and giving good, well-thought-out reasons to boot.

There have been a few decent arguments for, yes, but not enough. I've seen arguments both for and against over the period of time I've been developing, and made my decision.

Despite what Joe Krow would have you think, listening to rational, reasonable feedback from a range of gamer types and people that I respect is not the same as going with whatever point of view has the most numbers supporting it. It just means I consider and weigh up rational, reasonable feedback. You can get Ch1ef and Derper and the rest of the lads and have a good ol' poll, it isn't going to change my mind.

 

[Lesifoere]

NN you are a hack. Plain and simple. You would be working at EA if they would have you but they won't. Regardless, you have no business designing an independent game. Indy gamers want "art" not some second rate experiment in merchandising. If it is just construction for you then I sincerely hope it feels like a chore. Next time do something you feel passionate about. The result will show it.

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind for next time.

At least the pay will be better at EA, I'm sure. Before the dissolve your studio, anyway.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Actually, if I want money, I'll focus on my current job. I earn more doing what I currently do than I'm likely to make either as an indie or working at EA.

 

[Big Nose George]

Games are not Art

I disagree. They are first and foremost a business venture, true, but we all know it doesn't end there. For instance we are aware that to make the really good ones you require copious amounts of skill, knowledge, and dedication.

The basis of everything that is art.

So you're saying an electrical engineer is an artist?

If he is calculating ac networks by hand than he is God. God knows the definition of art and can lift heavy stones he made.

 

[Data4]

Games are not Art

I disagree. They are first and foremost a business venture, true, but we all know it doesn't end there. For instance we are aware that to make the really good ones you require copious amounts of skill, knowledge, and dedication.

The basis of everything that is art.

So you're saying an electrical engineer is an artist?

If he is calculating ac networks by hand than he is God. God knows the definition of art and can lift heavy stones he made.

Ah. Well, I'm glad we've narrowed it down to something so broad and general that everything is art.

And Mario Brothers is an RPG.

 

[denizsi]

Anyone to argue that a game like Grim Fandango isn't pure art, deserves to be lobotomised.

Architecture/Sculptures are not Art.

Structures/sculptures are a bench designed by skilled craftsmen, intended for public use. You can make your bench in any way you want, but if people tell you it is painful to walk in/look at, ie it is sub-par at fulfilling its purpose, you need to rethink. That purpose could be supporting someones ass or providing enjoyable scenery to a bystander.

Fixed for the irony that it's half the truth, though one might think otherwise. Absolutist opinions suck. Some things are art, some are not. No need to oppose either ends with extreme prejudice.

PS: I'm not targeting you on purpose just because you wrote some silly stuff in the other thread. I thought I should make this clear because I get the impression you might think that to be the case (though, if my impression of you is accurate, you'll take this that way either way, but hopefully not).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyone to argue that a game like Grim Fandango isn't pure art, deserves to be lobotomised.

How about: "Not all games are art. In fact, most games aren't, but every now and then you see something really special and artsy, like Grim Fandango, for example"?

 

[Derper]

Is DA art?

 

[Vault Dweller]

most games aren't

 

[Derper]

I was trying to re-rail.

 

[Derper]

It IS a trivial side quest. However, if you help him, he gives you a book and you can give this book to the hermit who only trades for unusual items.

Optional, additional content of no value.

And what game doesn't have it?

Did you enjoy delivering a meal to Smitty in FO2? Pixel-hunting for a meaningless book someone borrowed and lost? Giving the ghost its locket back? Getting Gladys her ring back in Arcanum? Looking for another ring in the sewers? Delivering editor's check? Bringing a present to a guy's wife to keep his family life smooth?
Come on. Let's not invent imaginary standards.

Quests in DA vs. Fallout 2/Arcanum? A lot of great games have fed-ex, but I guess we should compare the good ones, just for fun.
Fallout 2 had multiple choices for lots of quests, consequences for the choices you made. Most quests were well done, IMHO, and there was lots of sidequests to dive into. EX: Killing Carlson, Fixing Gecko, too much coolness to even remember.
Arcanum had very original quests and lots of them, non-obvious possibilities. EX: Open mystary-X-gnome-factory-halforcs-quest. Crashsite-items used in late game. Getting access to the wheel clan.
My question is: does DA have great quests in scores, or just a few well-done ones, in your opinion VD?

Edit: Typos

 

[Naked Ninja]

Anyone to argue that a game like Grim Fandango isn't pure art, deserves to be lobotomised.

It wasn't art. It was a logical puzzle, a form of intellectual entertainment. Wrapped in style, wit and imagination, certainly. But first and foremost it was a piece of digital entertainment.

PS: I'm not targeting you on purpose just because you wrote some silly stuff in the other thread. I thought I should make this clear because I get the impression you might think that to be the case (though, if my impression of you is accurate, you'll take this that way either way, but hopefully not).

Don't worry about it Deniszi, I'm not particularly offended.

 

[Bluebottle]

It wasn't art. It was a logical puzzle, a form of intellectual entertainment.

And Van Eyck's 'Adoration of the Lamb' is simply some canvas, oil and pigment; The Ecstasy of St. Teresa is just some stone; and Chinatown is just some celuloid and silver compounds. All art is greater than the sum of its earthly parts, and while I'm sure we can stand here all day discussing what can and cannot be considered art, it is certain that Grim Fandango, more than anything else that springs to mind, is possibly the closest games have got.

Games most certainly do have the potential to be art, no more or less so than a collection of pigments, or shaped stone. It is debatable whether or not any games have ever achieved this subjective, movable and ethereal watermark, but what is certain is that saying something is 'just a logic puzzle/film/book/comic' or whatever isn't enough to discount it as art, necessarily.

 

[Brother None]

I find the games as art debate both fascinating and asinine, kind of the nature of the game I suppose. Thing is, as a rule art is not determined within a generation, and the conception of "art" is a bit top-heavy in conceptualization (one of the reasons games are kept out). Still, history has a way of twisting expectations, both in turning the banal into art (like Deltware) or in looking back and turning what was considered art into the banal (I can not picture a future idiotic enough to still consider this art, for example).

But fair's fair in saying there's nothing stopping games from being art (implying that them being pieces of entertainment primarily somehow would stop them from being art is a rather odd view that completely misses the evolution of art throughout history, NN). And I like it when people have the single-mindedness to say "this game is art" (not so much when this is followed by "and anyone who doesn't think so is an idiot/should die") as certainly that's a perfectly valid interpretation of art through personal experience.

I hold Pathologic in higher esteem as art than van Gogh's Sunflowers. Then again, I kind of hate van Gogh (except his early years).

Then again, I'd probably hold that Christopher Walken's acting in the Ripper is art, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Quests in DA vs. Fallout 2/Arcanum?

No. Fallout 2 and Arcanum are much better role-playing games. My point was that bitching about some simplistic fedex quests in DA is silly because pretty much all games, incluiding the top 10 RPGs, have them.

My question is: does DA have great guests in scores, or just a few well-done ones, in your opinion VD?

A few well done ones. The main quest is very well designed. The side quests are the standard fare.