Review Vince D. Weller Does Fallout: New Vegas

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

@juintesomething: I repeat: If if was the devs ambition to make the Master seem like anything else than a deranged madman they failed.

The fact that many people are under the impression that the Master wasn't a deranged madman should tell you that the developers didn't fail. Obviously, some people have different opinions, but that's to be expected. No character, no matter how well developed, would ever be embraced by everyone.

Edit: welcome to Page 12! The discussion is now about the Master: a deranged madman or the real chosen one? You decide!

So according to you the masters plan to genocide a huge part of the population based on the arbitrary assumption that "humanity is not fit for survival and will propably repeat the nuclear holocaust" is an example of moral ambiguity?

 

[Radisshu]

@juintesomething: I repeat: If if was the devs ambition to make the Master seem like anything else than a deranged madman they failed.

The fact that many people are under the impression that the Master wasn't a deranged madman should tell you that the developers didn't fail. Obviously, some people have different opinions, but that's to be expected. No character, no matter how well developed, would ever be embraced by everyone.

Edit: welcome to Page 12! The discussion is now about the Master: a deranged madman or the real chosen one? You decide!

So according to you the masters plan to genocide a huge part of the population based on the arbitrary assumption that "humanity is not fit for survival and will propably repeat the nuclear holocaust" is an example of moral ambiguity?

I wouldn't call it genocide, I think the Master pretty much accepted anyone into the Unity, it's mostly that his troops were unruly and attacked humans on sight (I think he would have preferred to take them in).

 

[Havoc]

Those who didn't want VAT-treatment where allowed to live their lives, but were castrated. They couldn't reproduce, only the Super Mutants. And we all know that failed.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

@juintesomething: I repeat: If if was the devs ambition to make the Master seem like anything else than a deranged madman they failed.

The fact that many people are under the impression that the Master wasn't a deranged madman should tell you that the developers didn't fail. Obviously, some people have different opinions, but that's to be expected. No character, no matter how well developed, would ever be embraced by everyone.

Edit: welcome to Page 12! The discussion is now about the Master: a deranged madman or the real chosen one? You decide!

So according to you the masters plan to genocide a huge part of the population based on the arbitrary assumption that "humanity is not fit for survival and will propably repeat the nuclear holocaust" is an example of moral ambiguity?

I wouldn't call it genocide, I think the Master pretty much accepted anyone into the Unity, it's mostly that his troops were unruly and attacked humans on sight (I think he would have preferred to take them in).

The only ones who can be turned into (intelligent) super-mutants are uncontaminated pure-strain humans, i.e. inhabitants of undeground vaults and a few other selected individuals. The absoluty majority of wastelanders has been exposed to radiation and can't be part of the Unity. They couldn't be part of the new masterrace even if they wanted to. Instead they have to chose between castration or death, that's what most of you people seem to forget.
Killing of an population by locking them up in reservations and subjecting them to castration under threat of death fits easily into the definition of genocide. It's just a tad more humane then killing them directly.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

@ Sceptic: Except the Master doesn't want to turn all wastelanders into happy supermutants. According to his plan those wastelanders who don't fulfil the requirements (i.e. the majority) will be killed at worst or sterilized and put into reservates/concentration camps at best. Awesome. Did you even play the fucking game?

@juintesomething: I repeat: If if was the devs ambition to make the Master seem like anything else than a deranged madman they failed.

It's quite telling that Volorun is more reasonable than a majority of the codexers.

Do you claim that you and Volourn know more about Master's motivation than Tim Cain? His ''no'' invalidated your argument in its entirety.

Having motivation doesn't stop him from being an evil deranged madman. A lot of evil dictators only wanted "good".

Awesome - waging a war of aggression, kidnappings, mutilation, genocide (forcibly stopping humanity from reproducing is genocide), crazy medical experiments on humans, etc. are obviously "morally ambigous" and not batshit insane evil.

You, guys seriously should spend some time among some normal people, not among Nazism/Communism apologists.

 

[Kz3r0]

So according to you the masters plan to genocide a huge part of the population based on the arbitrary assumption that "humanity is not fit for survival and will propably repeat the nuclear holocaust" is an example of moral ambiguity?

Nope, but it's not Bioware evil either.

 

[Havoc]

Bioware evil is... IM GENIOUS! I WILL WASTE OVER HALF OF MY COUNTRY ARMY CUZ IM SMART AND I HATE THE KING! LOL! OH NO! SOME WARDEN BE COMING! I SEND GAY ELF AFTER! ME BE SMART!

 

[Brother None]

The problem is that Tim Cain claimed that it isn't true. If he didn't intend him to look completely insane, then there should be something going on in game that would make the player stop and think if the Unity wouldn't be better. For example a some big war going on.

People are a bit unimaginative. A big war is one option, but Fallout doesn't go with it. Instead, the wasteland is a really dangerous place, and no communities you run into seem to have the capacity for longterm survival. The Master is wrong, but his view isn't that hard to understand. The Vault dwellers depend on their vaults and aren't adapted to wasteland survival, places like LA Boneyard and Shady Sands are being torn apart in conflict. The Hub and Junktown are the best examples of progress and they're not exactly beacons of hope.

I think part of the problem here is whether or not you always view being mutated as a bad option. That's a valid view which auto-evils the Master, or - say - the new humans from Metro 2033. But both games try to do more based on thinking that sometimes evolution is necessary, no matter how ugly.

So yeah, no one should pretend this is some deep philosophical subtle evil. Games are hamhanded, including the best games. Still, some games do it better than others. Fallout 2's Enclave is weak, BioWare evil. The Master is not.

Honestly though, the setting was fun, original, and even somewhat coherent in its own limits, but Fallout fanatics seriously need to consider getting another hobby...

You are posting on an RPG specialty site.

I don't get some people. I mean really, dude?

Bioware evil is... IM GENIOUS! I WILL WASTE OVER HALF OF MY COUNTRY ARMY CUZ IM SMART AND I HATE THE KING! LOL! OH NO! SOME WARDEN BE COMING! I SEND GAY ELF AFTER! ME BE SMART!

I think he's one of their better villains too. At least his paranoia has some motivation. Unlike, say, Mass Effect's villains, who just want everyone to die coz that's fun or something.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Honestly though, the setting was fun, original, and even somewhat coherent in its own limits, but Fallout fanatics seriously need to consider getting another hobby...

You are posting on an RPG specialty site.

I don't get some people. I mean really, dude?

Yeah really. And the funny thing is, although I give a shit about it and don't spend half of my life thinking about it, I still seem to know the Fallout lore better than most of you guys. Example?

"I think part of the problem here is whether or not you always view being mutated as a bad option. That's a valid view which auto-evils the Master, or - say - the new humans from Metro 2033. But both games try to do more based on thinking that sometimes evolution is necessary, no matter how ugly. "

This still sounds as if mutating people into a superior race against their will is the only problematic issue with the masters plan. Actually, if the Master really planned and was able to mutate most people into intelligent super mutants, his plan would be a lot more attractive.

However the main problem is, that most wastelanders WILL BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN RADIATED AND CANT BE TURNED INTO INTELLIGENT SUPERMUTANTS. Sterilization or death is what awaits them.

AT LEAST THAT IS HOW FALLOUT 1 PRESENTS IT. Do I need to spell it out even more?

(1) Forced evolution of all human beings into a superior race that is more intelligent and better adapted to life in the wasteland - I can agree that is an somewhat interesting and even moraliy amigious concept

(2) Turning a small exclusive group of humans (uncontiminated Vault Dwellers) into a superior race while genociding the rest - Hitler like evil, although - I admit- with a motivation that goes beyond "lol im evil i destroy everything"

 

[Relay]

(2) Turning a small exclusive group of humans (uncontiminated Vault Dwellers) into a superior race while genociding the rest - Hitler like evil, although - I admit- with a motivation that goes beyond "lol im evil i destroy everything"

And this is where you lost it all. Not only did you infringe upon Godwin's Law, but in doing so have shown your ignorance of history and your stereotyped views on eugenism, which was promoted by the United States way before Hitler had given a thought about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

Reductio ad hitlerem much.
Every time someone brings up things like compulsory sterilization, we hear about this mythical "Hitler-like evil" but how about "United States-like evil" ?

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

(2) Turning a small exclusive group of humans (uncontiminated Vault Dwellers) into a superior race while genociding the rest - Hitler like evil, although - I admit- with a motivation that goes beyond "lol im evil i destroy everything"

And this is where you lost it all. Not only did you infringe upon Godwin's Law, but in doing so have shown your ignorance of history and your stereotyped views on eugenism, which was promoted by the United States way before Hitler had given a thought about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

Reductio ad hitlerem much.

Oh holy christ, the Hitler thing was only a figure of speech, an example. Who cares about those useless facts you posted? I didn't even have eugenics in mind, because sterilizing 90 percent of a population is more akin to to genocide than eugenics. Way to miss a point moron.

You people are so fucking stupid its hard to bear sometimes.

 

[Radisshu]

In a debate, whether or not something infringes on Godwin's Law means fuck all.

 

[Havoc]

Bioware evil is... IM GENIOUS! I WILL WASTE OVER HALF OF MY COUNTRY ARMY CUZ IM SMART AND I HATE THE KING! LOL! OH NO! SOME WARDEN BE COMING! I SEND GAY ELF AFTER! ME BE SMART!

I think he's one of their better villains too. At least his paranoia has some motivation. Unlike, say, Mass Effect's villains, who just want everyone to die coz that's fun or something.

He's dumb. Everybody says he's a genious tactician and what we get? A paranoid idiot, who is paranoid only in the first part of the game.

You know who is the best Bioware Villian? Irenicus.

 

[Kz3r0]

(2) Turning a small exclusive group of humans (uncontiminated Vault Dwellers) into a superior race while genociding the rest - Hitler like evil, although - I admit- with a motivation that goes beyond "lol im evil i destroy everything"

And this is where you lost it all. Not only did you infringe upon Godwin's Law, but in doing so have shown your ignorance of history and your stereotyped views on eugenism, which was promoted by the United States way before Hitler had given a thought about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

Reductio ad hitlerem much.

Oh holy christ, the Hitler thing was only a figure of speech, an example. Who cares about those useless facts you posted?

So why continue to use historical examples, and failing at it too?

I didn't even have eugenics in mind, because sterilizing 90 percent of a population is more akin to to genocide than eugenics. Way to miss a point moron.

And this begs the question, can Mutants and Humans peacefully coexist in the Fallout universe?

 

[Drakron]

No because Super Mutants are a dead end, they cannot reproduce and so have no future.

 

[Kz3r0]

No because Super Mutants are a dead end, they cannot reproduce and so have no future.

So trying to create more makes sense, maybe they will finally manage to create a fertile specimen.

 

[Davaris]

There's usually some kind of basic definition of evil that is shared by a large group or even the majority of people.
Clearly, the absolute majority of the people in Fallout 1 would rather continue to live their miserable lives in that post-apoc world than experience the "blessings" the Master has in store for them.

At least the game doesn't do any effort to convince us otherwise.

You could say the same about the majority of people living in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Vietnam and the blessings the Americans and their Western allies bestowed on them.

I also read something a long time ago about the % of civilians, killed by American bombers in North Korea. The numbers were shocking and would qualify as genocide, if the politics of our world were different.

At least the game doesn't do any effort to convince us otherwise.

So the justification is the get out of jail free card? All you need is a good justification to commit an outrage and you are good to go? Or do you need the people you are doing it to, to agree to it?




My definition of bad guys, are those who believe they are doing something for the greater good. People like that are not limited in how far they will go, in pursuit of their greater good.

The Communists of the Soviet Union and China, were very efficient killers for the greater good. They did it with a religious zeal like the Inquisition.


If you turn your opinion into a greater good religion, where you believe your opinion to be a Universal Truth, that can be forced on others using any means be it violence, coercion, propaganda, etc you are doing evil.

It would not necessarily make you a character who believes he is evil or is doing evil, but he is doing evil just the same.




Relay

And this is where you lost it all. Not only did you infringe upon Godwin's Law, but in doing so have shown your ignorance of history and your stereotyped views on eugenism, which was promoted by the United States way before Hitler had given a thought about it.

So we are talking about Hilter now? Then this thread must have run its course.

 

[DefJam101]

Why are the uniforms necessary

Why are uniforms necessary, generally?

Most uniforms aren't made of scavenged football equipment. Generally, it's to your disadvantage to have ridiculous uniforms.

ITT videogame humans see no ignominy in wearing modified football uniforms as combat gear.

Hey, as long as it works...it's not like they still have football around so it shouldn't look lulsy to them.

That makes sense, actually.

 

[Havoc]

Why are the uniforms necessary

Why are uniforms necessary, generally?

Most uniforms aren't made of scavenged football equipment. Generally, it's to your disadvantage to have ridiculous uniforms.

Armor too?

Well... fuck you too.

 

[Drakron]

So trying to create more makes sense, maybe they will finally manage to create a fertile specimen.

That is impossible, its a design flaw (or maybe not) of FEV and that is why when pointing out that flaw to the Master he gives up.

 

[Sceptic]

All my arguments are based on what we - as players - are actually shown in the game.

No actually, it's based on what you and a single other poster have interpreted from what is shown in the game.

That poster is, by your own statement, Volourn.

Kinda says it all really.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Bioware evil is... IM GENIOUS! I WILL WASTE OVER HALF OF MY COUNTRY ARMY CUZ IM SMART AND I HATE THE KING! LOL! OH NO! SOME WARDEN BE COMING! I SEND GAY ELF AFTER! ME BE SMART!

Considering how easily that half of the army got wasted by the darkspawn, the plan wasn't that dumb. At least he got rid of the useless king.

I don't see how Zevran's sexuality matters, though. Didn't some assassin dudes come after you in BG 1, anyway?

 

[Zomg]

Master is dumb, have humans fuck -> more people -> dip new people -> more mutants. You can wait until people are like 60 and their kids are grown, you can even say "hey it's up to you" and give them a choice of 20-30 years of infirmity preceding death or quasi-immortality in a kickass super body and you get to kill 20 year old retards with miniguns you hold in one hand, no old person would ever refuse. You would be looking forward to every birthday all giddy like a 5 year old

 

[Drakron]

Considering how easily that half of the army got wasted by the darkspawn, the plan wasn't that dumb. At least he got rid of the useless king.

You wanna play?

The tactic was a Anvil and Hammer, the Hammer never shown up.
Besides it was not easily wasted, they fought to the death for hours and were defeated simply because they had their back against a wall and a Army cutting off their retreat.

Now the problem is not much as the military aspect but the political and social one, to simply put the country was falling apart in a civil war because he was, rightfully, viewed as a usurper.

Also he killed his son-in-law that happened to be his greatest friend AND the the women he loved son.

And for what? because Orlais might use the request for military aid as a excuse to occupy Ferelden.

I say, the idea by itself is not bad but the execution! Its terrible ... better ways to present Orlais as a actual threat instead of relying on us thinking Loghain that was a Hero during the war to reclaim their independence decides to go around backstabbing half the country for a imaginary threat that existed on his mind

To be blunt, Dragon Age plot is ... because the plot demands it, Loghain is the villain because the Archdemon simply is busy sitting on his tail until Loghain is pulled off and then decides to do something.

I don't see how Zevran's sexuality matters, though. Didn't some assassin dudes come after you in BG 1, anyway?

They did not ask to join up after being beaten, they died.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I was under the impression that the massacre would make people nervous enough to accept him as the new boss, because killing just the king would make people think of it as an assassination, which would make him one of the prime suspects.

And he's estabilished as being paranoid, so taking extreme measures because of something that "might" happen doesn't seem too weird for him.

They did not ask to join up after being beaten, they died.

...And? That has nothing to do with why Loggy thought hiring an assassin was a good idea, which is what Havoc was joking about. And the BG ones died because BG's PC%NAME kills them outright, while Zevs managed to survive after being beaten.

You can kill him instead of asking him to join if you want, btw.