Watch 30 minutes of some guys playing Dragon Age and talking

[MetalCraze]

More like you can't know rocket science you are not a rocket engineer.

Unless you say that using magic is as common in DA world as ancient evil awakening in Bioware games - nice lore and setting there then.

It's harder for a mage to learn pickpocketing, since it's not his main thing, I guess.

He can learn it just as well. DA is very primitive in this regard - there are only 4 grades of any given skill as stated in one of the previews.
Again a good class-based party-based system is a system where each class does something special that makes a gameplay experience varied and unique. How are you going to achieve that with only 3 classes that duplicate skills of each other?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

More like you can't know rocket science you are not a rocket engineer.

You don't "become" a rocket engineer in order to learn rocket science, you're a rocket engineer BECAUSE you know rocket science.

just like a mage is a mage because he started learning spells, not because he decided he's a mage and can't learn anything else. Aspie mage?

Unless you say that using magic is as common in DA world as pickpocketing - nice lore and setting there then.

That's another matter. I was talking about the impossibility of a mage learning anything else than magic

Let's say it takes a shitload of experience for a rogue to learn some magic - it's like he spent years learning it. Dunno.

It's harder for a mage to learn pickpocketing, since it's not his main thing, I guess.

He can learn it just as well. DA is very primitive in this regard - there are only 4 grades of any given skill as stated in one of the previews.[/quote]

Again, another matter. It's a problem with the gameplay, not about the impossibility of learning new things

Again a good class-based party-based system is a system where each class does something special that makes a gameplay experience varied and unique.

Possible if you don't spread out your talents. Have all your party concentre on each of their chosen professions. Unless...

How are you going to achieve that with only 3 classes that duplicate skills of each other?

...I'm not sure if they are duplicates of each other, so I can't comment on that.

 

[MetalCraze]

You don't "become" a rocket engineer in order to learn rocket science, you're a rocket engineer BECAUSE you know rocket science.

Yes you do - that's why you go to a rocket science university instead of an army.

That's another matter. I was talking about the impossibility of a mage learning anything else than magic

Even in the evil DnD mages can use weapons and crossbows, they will never excel at non-magic combat because such combat is borked by their stats. DA has no spell casting stats (because preview clearly stated that you can choose only 16 spells out of 64 - in DnD it all depended on your own unique build) - only stats like STR, CON, DEX. However it has primitive grade system with only 4 grades (in DnD there are tens of grades).
BTW I compare it to DnD because DA obviously steals many things from it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

This is probably the dumbest thing Skyway has ever said.

In fact it shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
They are not turns, that's true; they're rounds.
However, the point was, I think, that it's not real time per se. Your characters won't attack at every click of the mouse, but only in the timeframe allowed by the round.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

You don't "become" a rocket engineer in order to learn rocket science, you're a rocket engineer BECAUSE you know rocket science.

Yes you do - that's why you go to a rocket science university instead of an army.

You spend a lot of time there, learning rocket science, you don't become a rocket scientist the moment you step into the place. You can also give up after some time has passed, not become a rocket scientist at all but still knowing a lot about rocket science.

"Hm, guess I'll be a mage"

*enters mage guild*

"DING! You're a mage! Btw, you just forgot everything else you knew, and can't learn anything else than magic"

" "

BTW I compare it to DnD because DA obviously steals many things from it.

Yes, but even then the rules are different, so what was balanced in D&D might not work in DA. If it's shittier, well, that's Bio's fault for making a shitty system, not for failing to ape D&D, which is not perfect.

The 4 grades thing bothers me too, but I still don't know what is included in each grade, nor how long it takes to reach each one.

 

[MetalCraze]

You spend a lot of time there, learning rocket science, you don't become a rocket scientist the moment you step into the place.

Which is exactly the point. In DA you start as a spellcaster right away however as you get one skill point per level it will take me only 4 levels to fully excel at lockpicking. And something tells me there will not be a 10 level cap.
In DnD you had dice rolls and 10s of lockpicking grades so it was much more interesting and unpredicted. My mage will be a pickpocketing master at level 4.

 

[Moray]

DA has no spell casting stats (because preview clearly stated that you can choose only 16 spells out of 64 - in DnD it all depended on your own unique build) - only stats like STR, CON, DEX.

Watch the video again; there are six attributes shown: Strength, Dexterity, Willpower, Magic, Cunning, and Constitution.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Which is exactly the point. In DA you start as a spellcaster right away however as you get one skill point per level it will take me only 4 levels to fully excel at lockpicking. And something tells me there will not be a 10 level cap.

Well, you'll be a shitty mage because you lost interest in magic and spent too much time on your lockpicking hobby. Sorta like a <s>College</s> Mage's guild dropout.

Dunno about the level cap, that's a good point that might make it a nice system or ruin it by allowing you to master lockpicking AND magic, making a demigod.

In DnD you had dice rolls and 10s of lockpicking grades so it was much more interesting and unpredicted. My mage will be a pickpocketing master at level 4.

Does it really take one skill point per grade? I was thinking maybe the higher grades take more points, i.e, forcing you to go a few levels saving points for the skill you want to max right away, while the others are still at the level you started with (i.e, shitty).

Also, we don't know how long it takes to level, so you may or may not learn too much too soon

 

[MetalCraze]

So what does Magic affect? It doesn't affect the amount of spells you can learn - as one of the previews said that you can have only 16 in one runthrough no matter your stats. It doesn't also affect the number of skill points you get (like INT). Is it a Mana stat? Pfft.

Well, you'll be a shitty mage because you lost interest in magic and spent too much time on your lockpicking hobby. Sorta like a College Mage's guild dropout.

Why do you think it will be so? All skills have 4 grades. Even with the 20 level cap you must have 5 mage skills to not excel in at least one by spending points on something else. This is not the case in DA afaik. But one of the classes even gets two points per level.

Does it really take one skill point per grade? I was thinking maybe the higher grades take more points, i.e, forcing you to go a few levels saving points for the skill you want to max right away, while the others are still at the level you started with (i.e, shitty).

I reckon mages and fighters are getting 1 skill point per level and rogue is getting 2. I think there was something about it in this thread.

Also, we don't know how long it takes to level, so you may or may not learn too much too soon

This is a console game. You know how it will go - also see KotOR, JE, ME

 

[Moray]

So what does Magic affect? It doesn't affect the amount of spells you can learn - as one of the previews said that you can have only 16 in one runthrough no matter your stats. Is it a Mana stat? Pfft.

I'm not sure. Willpower may control mana, Magic may control amount of damage, or act as a prerequisite for spells to learn (i.e., you need, say, 15 Magic to learn level 5 spells or something, for instance).

 

[MetalCraze]

No it's much more primitive:

willpower (available mana), magic (effectiveness of spells)

http://www.gamebanshee.com/previews/dra ... ins3-1.php

Yes there is one stat that only affects damage. But that's it, no stuff like how many and which level spells you can learn. Pretty disappointing.
So a mage will be able to focus on pumping up other skills and stats more than any other class.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Blob on, crazy BLOBERT

Is he crazy or are we? Ponder upon that for this evening.

 

[roll-a-die]

Fucking hell you can't do everything as every class, bitch.

Rogues are the only ones who are able to pick locks as well as sneak. They are NOT however the only ones able to pickpockets.

Mages are the only ones who can cast spells moreover they have to sacrifice talents for spells. An arcane warrior will likely get spells to make up for his lack of talents.

Warriors are the only ones able to one on multi melee for more than a few seconds and are like your tanks given that they can taunt enemies to them. Warriors are also likely the only ones who can use shields and two handed weapons that are not staffs.

the skills(not talents) that every one can learn are


* Coercion: This provides intimidation and persuasion during dialogue.


* Combat Tactics: This skill allows more script options in the tactics system.



* Combat Training: This skill unlocks more advanced combat-related talents.



* Herbalism: This crafting skill allows a character to create salves and elixirs.



* Poison-Making: This skill is for crafting venoms and extracts.


* Stealing: This gives a character the ability to pickpocket NPCs.



* Survival: This skill lets a character track enemies outside of visual range.


* Trap-Making: Characters who have learned this skill can construct traps or lures from common components, so long as they also possess a plan to build the mechanism. The second and fourth rank of this skill also increase the range at which the character can detect enemy traps. Note that while all characters who have learned this skill can set traps, only rogues can disarm them. Components and plans may be bought from merchants, looted from defeated enemies, or found while exploring.


Rogue talents are as such,
Archery

* Melee Archer, Aim, Defensive Fire, Master Archer

* Pinning Shot, Crippling Shot, Critical Shot, Arrow of Slaying
* Rapid Shot, Shattering Shot, Suppressing Fire, Scattershot

Dual Weapon

* Dual Weapon Training, Dual Weapon Finesse, Dual Weapon Expert, Dual Weapon Mastery

* Double Strike, Riposte, Cripple, Punisher

* Dual Weapon Sweep, Flurry, Momentum, Whirlwind

Unique Rogue Talents

* Dirty Fighting, Combat Movement, Coup De Grace, Feign Death
* Below the Belt, Deadly Strike, Lethality, Evasion
* Improved Lockpicking, Improved Disarm Trap, Master Lockpicking, Master Disarm Trap
* Stealth, Stealthy Item Use, Combat Stealth, Master Stealth


And here are Warrior talents,
Archery

* Melee Archer, Aim, Defensive Fire, Master Archer

* Pinning Shot, Crippling Shot, Critical Shot, Arrow of Slaying
* Rapid Shot, Shattering Shot, Suppressing Fire, Scattershot

Dual Weapon

* Dual Weapon Training, Dual Weapon Finesse, Dual Weapon Expert, Dual Weapon Mastery

* Double Strike, Riposte, Cripple, Punisher

* Dual Weapon Sweep, Flurry, Momentum, Whirlwind

Sword and Shield

* Shield Bash, Shield Pummel, Assault, Overpower

* Shield Defense, Shield Balance, Shield Wall, Shield Expertise

* Shield Block, Shield Cover, Shield Tactics, Shield Mastery

Two Handed

* Pommel Strike, Indomitable, Stunning Blows, Critical Strike
* Sunder Weapon, Shattering Blows, Sunder Armor, Destroyer
* Mighty Blow, Powerful Swings, Two-Handed Strength, Two-Handed Sweep

Warrior Class Talents

* Powerful, Threaten, Bravery, Death Blow
* Precise Striking, Disengage, Taunt, Perfect Striking.

And here are Spells,
Creation

* Heal, Rejuvenation, Cure, Mass Rejuvenation

* Heroic Offense, Heroic Aura, Heroic Defense, Haste

* Glyph of Paralysis, Glyph of Warding, Glyph of Repulsion, Glyph of Neutralization

* Spell Wisp, Grease, Spellbloom, Stinging Swarm

Entropy

* Weakness, Paralyze, Miasma, Mass Paralysis

* Vulnerability Hex, Affliction Hex, Misdirection Hex, Death Hex

* Disorient, Horror, Sleep, Waking Nightmare

* Drain Life, Death Magic, Curse of Mortality, Death Cloud


Primal

* Flame Blast, Flaming Weapons, Fireball, Inferno

* Rock Armor, Stonefist, Earthquake, Petrify

* Winter's Grasp, Frost Weapons, Cone of Cold, Blizzard

* Lightning, Shock, Tempest, Chain Lightning


Spirit

* Spell Shield, Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Ward, Anti-Magic Burst

* Mana Drain, Mana Cleanse, Spell Might, Mana Clash

* Walking Bomb, Death Syphon, Virulent Walking Bomb, Animate Dead

* Mind Blast, Force Field, Telekinetic Weapons, Crushing Prison

Note that there are 64 there and the mage has four specializations. That's a minimum of 80 spells and a max of 128.

Magic acts a prerequisite along with your level.[/u]

 

[Moray]

What are the specializations? Or does that refer to the four differing types of magic (Creation, Entropy, etc.)?

 

[Tuonela]

What are the specializations? Or does that refer to the four differing types of magic (Creation, Entropy, etc.)?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Specialization

 

[Moray]

What are the specializations? Or does that refer to the four differing types of magic (Creation, Entropy, etc.)?

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Specialization

Ahh, so akin to DnD's prestige classes. Thanks for the link.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS YOULL HAVE MUCH BETTER LUCK ARGUEING WITH THE WALL

 

[roll-a-die]

OR A STOP SIGN BRO?

 

[Alex]

(...snip)
In DnD you had dice rolls and 10s of lockpicking grades so it was much more interesting and unpredicted. My mage will be a pickpocketing master at level 4.

Actually, I think you are bashing the wrong point, Skyway. Having 10s of different grads doesn't necessarily make a system more complex. In most D&D adventures I have read, people keep DCs as multiples of five, usually ranging from 5 to thirty five. So, that would effectively be 7 gradations of difficulty. In the end, D&D's approach may seem more "organic", but that doesn't make it more complex.

What you said about dice is spot on, though (even if not well used on crpgs yet). I haven't followed DA too closely, but if I understand you correctly, the game will use static checks instead of dice throws for skills, right? While you can certainly make very good games like this (fallout as an example), a dice throw could be used to make the parts where you use your skills much more interactive.

Also, about the spells, 64 spells could be a lot if they don't have repetitions between them. For example, if you had three spells for ranged damage, three for area of effect damage, three for touch damage, two for healing, 4 for buffing and 4 for status ailments, it still would leave 45 spells for various utilities, which could be quite a lot. Moreover, since there is apparently some interesting interactions between spells, a spell that causes damage by fire and another that causes damage by ice can actually be a significantly different. I am not saying that this is what Bioware is doing, just pointing out that there is still plenty of space with the number. Also, the limit of 16 spells by spellcasters could significantly add to replayability, if the differences among spells actually matter.

 

[Silellak]

Dragon Age is going to fucking suck!!

Are you sure? It might not be that bad. Personally I'll wait and see.

Fair enough. At the very least, the inevitable LP from a Codexer might be entertaining, and at least they aren't raping an existing franchise, like Fallout 3.

I'm glad we could come to a reasonable compromise. I look forward to many more intelligent discussions with you in the future.

Huh. You were right.

 

[MetalCraze]

Note that there are 64 there and the mage has four specializations. That's a minimum of 80 spells and a max of 128.

Haha what? There are only 64 spells, where are another 64? I don't get your magical fanboy math, name them

 

[roll-a-die]

The four specializations(prestige classes if you prefer) will open up new spell schools I.E. Blood Magic or shapeshifting. Each one will have anywhere from four to to 16 spells. I can't name them because they haven't released the info on them. They probably won't until after release.

I note you seem to have given up on the every class can learn the same things. So you aren't completely incompetent. Either that or you merely read the first and last line of my post before responding.

 

[MetalCraze]

I still say that every class can learn the exactly same skills because that's what gamebanshee says, I was mistaken about lockpicking though, I thought it was a part of those 8 skills that every character can learn - still doesn't make that design decision any less silly or primitive especially considering that all "social interaction" skills are now represented as one.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Why do you even care skyway?

 

[Jim Cojones]

They are not turns, that's true; they're rounds.
However, the point was, I think, that it's not real time per se. Your characters won't attack at every click of the mouse, but only in the timeframe allowed by the round.

Just like in every turn-based game, like Warcraft or Mortal Kombat and many, many others. Unless the difference between "this character can attack once every 3 seconds and cast a spell every 6 seconds" and "this character can attack 3 times or cast a spell once in every 6 seconds" is enough to claim this:

BG didn't have RTWP combat - it was turn-based there with auto-turn every 6 seconds