Shadowrun Were the Shadowrun games too much of a power fantasy?

[Delterius]

You never have enough cash (at least I didn't) to buy all the best stuff you want for everyone. That's enough power fantasy cockblocking IMO.

I remember thinking money was in real short supply in Hong Kong, but less so in the other games. I do like when they manage that, but the thread is focused on the plot. If I had to bring mechanics into it I'd point out that the Shadowrun games aren't particularly difficult and HK is the easiest one by far.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I give them credit for trying. I can’t name any other games whose genres include urban fantasy, cyberpunk, and post-apocalypse, much less a whole trilogy of them.

 

[Cross]

You never have enough cash (at least I didn't) to buy all the best stuff you want for everyone. That's enough power fantasy cockblocking IMO.

Your companions will automatically restock their inventories in between every mission, meaning you basically have a limitless supply of consumable items. They also automatically upgrade their equipment.

Well, Shadowrun is post-apocalypse urban fantasy cyberpunk. There really isn’t a lot of that three genre mashup. It’s not my cup of tea, but I don’t have much choice when it comes to anything urban fantasy. Arcanum, Shadowrun, Bloodlines (maybe Redemption), and… that’s pretty much it. I guess Disco Elysium counts, but it’s still secondary world fantasy. My tastes go for modernish Earth urban fantasy, since I’m still starving for stuff like Bloodlines.

Urban fantasy is just extremely uncommon for some reason and I’m not the only one who noticed:
https://headstuff.org/entertainment/gaming/urban-fantasy-in-modern-gaming/
https://screenrant.com/urban-fantasy-games-persona-ff7-japan-popular-why/

Same for scifi crpgs, at least those that aren’t cyberpunk or post-apocalypse. Which is odd, considering scifi has tons of tropes to guide any aspiring dev.

At least in western rpgs its uncommon.

I guess. But Persona and Final Fantasy have never occurred to me when I think of urban fantasy

Final Fantasy definitely isn't urban fantasy. It's a high-fantasy world, except all the technology resembles that of our world for some reason, but the world still functions like pre-industrial times in many ways, e.g. no roads connecting cities despite the presence of computers and space travel.

Persona is urban fantasy, but it doesn't really feel like it, since the monsters and magic are only encountered in a separate dimension the characters have to travel to.

I wouldn't describe Shadowrun as urban fantasy either. It just doesn't have the themes and the tone of urban fantasy. The (re-)appearance of magic in the Shadowrun world is basically the equivalent of an alien invasion. There is no Masquerade or tension that comes from the magical being a hidden aspect of society like you would see in an urban fantasy setting.

 

[0sacred]

You never have enough cash (at least I didn't) to buy all the best stuff you want for everyone. That's enough power fantasy cockblocking IMO.

Your companions will automatically restock their inventories in between every mission, meaning you basically have a limitless supply of consumable items. They also automatically upgrade their equipment.

You can still buy better stuff for them, better fetishes come to mind as I tended to rely on tanky summons.

 

[0sacred]

You never have enough cash (at least I didn't) to buy all the best stuff you want for everyone. That's enough power fantasy cockblocking IMO.

I remember thinking money was in real short supply in Hong Kong, but less so in the other games. I do like when they manage that, but the thread is focused on the plot. If I had to bring mechanics into it I'd point out that the Shadowrun games aren't particularly difficult and HK is the easiest one by far.

Kind of hard to reconcile success in mechanical terms with a downward spiral in plot, no? Unless you're talking about the grand scheme of things, not the runs you go on. Which would mean depressing footnotes to your personal success story or something, idk if that's satisfying.

 

[Lambach]

"Power fantasy" is a bit of a stretch. Both Hong Kong and Dragonfall make it pretty clear that, despite all of your actions and all your effort and your hard-won "accomplishments", you really don't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things*. You can't even influence the future of just the city you're operating in, nevermind something greater, because there are powers at work so beyond yourself, a lowly disposable gun-for-hire, you can't even fathom them.

*the exception being that one scenario in Dragonfall where you get to effectively destroy the world, but that's about as "non-canon", for lack of a better word, as it gets

 

[Delterius]

Kind of hard to reconcile success in mechanical terms with a downward spiral in plot, no? Unless you're talking about the grand scheme of things, not the runs you go on. Which would mean depressing footnotes to your personal success story or something, idk if that's satisfying.

That's the crux of the issue, and I'd add another complicating factor: kind of hard to reconcile success and progression (which is an expectation for RPGs) with a downward spiral in the plot, no? You're right to question wether that'd be satisfying. If there's one cautionary tale about having the PC live in a shitty world where they can't do anything really it's Dragon Age 2. Mages and Templars hate each other, and they destroy the city in the end. You can only survive.

I think the earlier post about Dragonfall made a lot of my points for me. Unlike what I said in the OP you do lose a lot through Dragonfall's story, even as you do achieve your objectives in the end.

I'm also reminded of an Old Codex post, which proposed a game about travellers in an 'europen black plague' scenario. Leveling up would be mandatory and would actually be levelling down, as you lose your physical faculties over time in your journey.

That is a rather extreme scenario, so think of roguelites where the objective is to protect some village from inevitable destruction. You still win, sorta, because you are ever more successful in your last stands. Can that be done in a Shadowrun plot? Can you have a game where you're a runner who's pretty much fated to die from psychological trauma and physical damage, making money and attaining luxury on the way? I dunno, but it's just food for thought.

"Power fantasy" is a bit of a stretch. Both Hong Kong and Dragonfall make it pretty clear that, despite all of your actions and all your effort and your hard-won "accomplishments", you really don't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things*.

I can see where you're coming from. Back in Hong Kong I expected that we'd have a convo with

Spoiler

Grandma

but then I realized that she's too high up and her comeuppance must come from her peers. Not us mere runners. The expanded story only adds to your point. Still do you suppose this:

In all three Shadowrun games we play people who thrive in the shadows, and who make the best of them at every turn. Sure, we are often broke, chased by the police, or worse. However our trajectories always feel ascendant. We never fall into a corporate blacksite, we are never betrayed by the people who really matter, we never lose friends or comrades, we never lose much of anything really.

Could be called something like a 'bad-ass fantasy in a world that fucks up normies as a rule'? I dunno I think power fantasy is good enough, even if the power fantasy isn't absolute. Must I be a God to be in a power fantasy?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Final Fantasy definitely isn't urban fantasy. It's a high-fantasy world, except all the technology resembles that of our world for some reason, but the world still functions like pre-industrial times in many ways, e.g. no roads connecting cities despite the presence of computers and space travel.

Persona is urban fantasy, but it doesn't really feel like it, since the monsters and magic are only encountered in a separate dimension the characters have to travel to.

I wouldn't describe Shadowrun as urban fantasy either. It just doesn't have the themes and the tone of urban fantasy. The (re-)appearance of magic in the Shadowrun world is basically the equivalent of an alien invasion. There is no Masquerade or tension that comes from the magical being a hidden aspect of society like you would see in an urban fantasy setting.

I’m gonna be a pedant here and point out that urban fantasy isn’t so rigorously defined. All of those examples count, technically. Enough people have told me so that I’ve given up trying to convince anyone otherwise.

The specific premise you’re talking about where magic is hidden in plain sight in a modernish Earth that superficially resembles our own… that doesn’t have its own name to disambiguate it from all other uses of “urban fantasy.”

Magic hidden in plain sight (as opposed to publicly known or accepted), modernish Earth (as opposed to our past, our possible future, or a non-Earth secondary world), superficially resembles our own (as opposed to an alternate history). All three of these points need to be precisely specified, because there are exceptions to all of these.

Harry Potter is a textbook example of meeting all three points.

TSR’s Magitech takes place on a modernish Earth, but magic has been publicly known forever and it’s alternate history where the Amerindians used magic to defend themselves from colonization.

Dungeonpunk is urban fantasy in the most literal sense. It’s a fantasy setting in the middle of or after its industrial revolution. So it doesn’t match any of the three points.

Beknighted is an alternate history where everyone on Earth are stereotypical Hollywood werewolves who transform involuntarily under the full moon except for a minority of “disabled” people (i.e. what we would consider muggles).

In Sookie Stackhouse magic has been recently revealed to the public.

Etc.

 

[Lambach]

In all three Shadowrun games we play people who thrive in the shadows, and who make the best of them at every turn. Sure, we are often broke, chased by the police, or worse. However our trajectories always feel ascendant. We never fall into a corporate blacksite, we are never betrayed by the people who really matter, we never lose friends or comrades, we never lose much of anything really.

Could be called something like a 'bad-ass fantasy in a world that fucks up normies as a rule'? I dunno I think power fantasy is good enough, even if the power fantasy isn't absolute. Must I be a God to be in a power fantasy?

Well, you noted yourself that doing the opposite would be contrary to the nature of video-games, RPGs in particular. If you, the player, successfully complete the objectives and overcome the challenges the game places before you, it would be quite demoralizing to have your character fail despite of it. When people talk about what they dislike about video-games in general, one of the most common complaints I've seen is "When I wipe the floor with my enemy in-game, but then they beat me in the following cutscene". Who likes putting effort into overcoming a challenge only to get "punished" for it when they do?

And I would also add that your Runner in SR games is only a bad-ass within his own clique - other outcasts of society who are basically disposable tools for anyone with a wallet fat enough. The average middle-manager working for some AAA corp probably has more power over society in general than the average Runner.

 

[Delterius]

"When I wipe the floor with my enemy in-game, but then they beat me in the following cutscene".

I wouldn't want that either. I'd want a plot that sets you up for an upward struggle, where defeat is not so dissonant. By the end of Hong Kong's special campaign your criminal organization has to relocate. That's not really a loss scenario for you should you stick with them. It's a happy ending pretty much.

What if instead the story made it clear that you're just trying to survive, that the end is gonna be bittersweet at best? The RPG growth and success component would still be there, only you're barely crawling through the dirt rather than soaring through the skies. I think if world and characters are engaging enough then players won't be disappointed, they'll be invested in the misery porn.

Let's say you play a disgraced officer turned runner. Your knees are fucked, your body can't take much chrome either and your objective is I dunno make money for your kids future. You make it through some gruesome missions, minmaxxing your shitty situation, probably lose an eye on the way, manage to wire that money to your family, but still die in the end. Would that be a failure of an RPG campaign? I don't think so. It's just an example, don't get hung up on the details. I'm sure you can see what I mean.

 

[Lambach]

What if instead the story made it clear that you're just trying to survive, that the end is gonna be bittersweet at best?

The RPG growth and success component would still be there, only you're barely crawling through the dirt rather than soaring through the skies.

But the story of Hong Kong is mainly about just trying to survive, until close to the end of it. The goal is for you to stop the man-hunt against you so that the Hong-Kong police doesn't shoot you on sight, while also trying to find out if your adoptive father is still alive.

And I'd say the ending is bittersweet. Most players will have lost the aforementioned adoptive father, The Walled City remains a shithole, the person responsible for all of your woes remains firmly out of your reach, the beginning of the expanded story shows you're still just a thug-for-hire etc. Doesn't really feel like a win for the PC to me. Unless you chose to get out at the end of the expansion, you're still ultimately just a disposable gun-for-hire doing some criminal's dirty work and you haven't really moved up in the world one bit.

 

[Delterius]

But the story of Hong Kong is mainly about just trying to survive, until close to the end of it. The goal is for you to stop the man-hunt against you so that the Hong-Kong police doesn't shoot you on sight, while also trying to find out if your adoptive father is still alive.

I think I'd like to see a version of that story that leans harder on that personal component. Rather than becoming kindly cheng's wunderunner you remain on the run and you have to investigate your foster father yourself. Losing something of yourself along the way.

I think the Hong Kong PC did move up in the world. They start as a small time criminal and a failure in some black site. They quickly become the second in command of a crime syndicate and a local legend amongst runners. And then odds are they become instrumental in leading that syndicate to taking over the Barrens. You're basically cheng's heir and she's an old lady. I'd also argue that having your cake and eating it too is an easy thing in Hong Kong. Just talk to the local occultist and you can punch a god in the face, save your dad, and then you can pick between being a hero or gaining good luck for a year. You aren't a god in this world, but you're doing great really. It's definitely a fantasy of bad assery at least.

Again, I think a good story, with engaging characters, and a plotline that was set up to be bittersweet in it's entirety and without copouts of any kind can work. If there's any genre where it should work it's cyberpunk. This isn't necessarily a point against the trilogy. I love all three games. It's only food for thought for a hypothetical new shadow run game we'll never get.

 

[The_Mask]

I'll be honest, I only liked Dragonfall, the others I had a lukewarm opinion only.

And before you label me as edgy:
1. I thought Returns didn't have much C&C or exploration. It felt like a very well put together demo. I wasn't offended, because the lack of bugs, but I liked the character creation, and it made me want to play Dragonfall.
2. Hong Kong seemed too tryhardy, and I had a bug that replaced my gun that I used in The Matrix (I forget the name of the world), in real life. This pretty much enabled me to decimate most of the things the game put against me, including the final boss. And before you ask: no I couldn't unequip it.

And so I'm going to base my thoughts on Dragonfall alone. Basically: trying to remain as objective as possible. And as objective as possible, I feel they pretty much nailed it with Dragonfall. 3 act structure. Likeable companions with specific missions. Missions and fights that make all companions shine. Tra la la.

I never played the tabletop. And so that being said, if they can make an even better version of Dragonfall, my wallet is ready.

If not, it's best they keep the record as good as it is.


I also hope the use the same soundtrack.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I prefer multiple endings, with bad endings based on the PC’s actions. Which actions lead to which ending should be determined by the overall atmosphere and tone of the story. I would also prefer if these endings are affected by your choices throughout the game rather than decided just before the end, but that’s not a dealbreaker.

 

[Lambach]

It's definitely a fantasy of bad assery at least.

Well it kinda has to be, because it takes a badass to overcome and survive the kind of challenges that make the game interesting. The disgraced cop in your previous example would have to stick to mundane, lower-risk jobs and while that could work for a novel or something, it would be less fitting for a turn-based isometric RPG.


And as I pointed out before, keep in mind the PC is a badass and a "legend" only within his clique i.e. other Runners and criminals. As we've seen in HK, the power of these criminal syndicates doesn't reach far beyond the poorest and most downtrodden parts of the city. They're largely invisible to the "decent" parts of society.

 

[Delterius]

. Hong Kong seemed too tryhardy, and I had a bug that replaced my gun that I used in The Matrix (I forget the name of the world), in real life. This pretty much enabled me to decimate most of the things the game put against me, including the final boss. And before you ask: no I couldn't unequip it.

Guy started hacking people's brains and cyberware in the real world and complained about it smdh.

The disgraced cop in your previous example would have to stick to mundane, lower-risk jobs and while that could work for a novel or something, it would be less fitting for a turn-based isometric RPG.

I don't really think RPGs are limited like that, or that the example can't be tweaked.

 

[The_Mask]

Guy started hacking people's brains and cyberware in the real world and complained about it smdh.

Bro! I like being OP when I earn it, bro... if I didn't earn it, I feel like a monkey given a Star Trek laser. Not cool.

Besides, do you know how rare it is for me to roll anything other than a monk? XD

 

[Lambach]

I don't really think RPGs are limited like that

I dunno, I can't think of any RPG off the top of my head in which you don't eventually grow into a badass. That progression of your character is one of the staples of the genre.

 

[Trithne]

Besides, do you know how rare it is for me to roll anything other than a monk? XD

You're not Pink Eye.

Echoing what other people have said here - Dragonfall got it right. Not just the right levels of power fantasy, but the right levels of Pink Mohawk vs Black Trenchcoat, and Shadowrun in general. In Dragonfall you really feel the painful mashing together of magic and machine that characterises the setting, the new and the old, the ways the world has been forcibly changed.

Hong Kong is just every asian-themed cinema from the 1970s and 80s.

I personally suspect that this has to do, in part, with Shadowrun's popularity in Germany. It's one of the bigger TTRPGs there, to the point that what was initially fanwork (the ADL, a kinda nu-HRE) became canon and the German versions of the rules are honestly better written and edited than the tripe Catalyst shits out in English. They had a really well established and thought through part of the setting to work with, and one that really works with the setting's themes on the whole.

Asia, in Shadowrun, is pretty generic and still stuck in "Eastern Mysticism written by White Americans in the 1980s using tropes", which I guess fits alongside Shadowrun's America, which is "Native American Mysticism written by White Americans in the 1980s using tropes".

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Both Hong Kong and Dragonfall make it pretty clear that, despite all of your actions and all your effort and your hard-won "accomplishments", you really don't matter one bit in the grand scheme of things*. You can't even influence the future of just the city you're operating in, nevermind something greater

To be fair,

Spoiler

You could in theory following the ending of Hong Kong if you make a deal with the Yama King. Sure, Kowloon will be condemned to further misery, but you'd theoretically be able to significantly impact some other place through your Yama-endowed luck.

 

[Lambach]

To be fair,

Spoiler

You could in theory following the ending of Hong Kong if you make a deal with the Yama King. Sure, Kowloon will be condemned to further misery, but you'd theoretically be able to significantly impact some other place through your Yama-endowed luck.

Spoiler

It's a question of how powerful that luck "buff" is. Is it strong enough that it ensures you come out on top no matter what the situation is, or are there limitations. From what I read, the effects of that "buff" in the extended story are helpful, but relatively minor.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Spoiler

It's a question of how powerful that luck "buff" is. Is it strong enough that it ensures you come out on top no matter what the situation is, or are there limitations. From what I read, the effects of that "buff" in the extended story are helpful, but relatively minor.

Spoiler

I'd personally consider it a gameplay contrivance since you being too OP in the second campaign if you had picked that ending would make it boring. Given how that particular ending is sort of a secret one that requires you to go the extra mile (without it being advertised as such, just being a natural outcome of your engagement with other side content), it would really cheapen it if the very unlikely act of forcing a Yama King into taking a deal would be reduced to "yeah, for the next 20 years, a bullet will miss you every now and then and you won't choke to death on a fishbone."

 

[The_Mask]

You're not Pink Eye.

Correct.

 

[Lambach]

Spoiler

I'd personally consider it a gameplay contrivance since you being too OP in the second campaign if you had picked that ending would make it boring. Given how that particular ending is sort of a secret one that requires you to go the extra mile (without it being advertised as such, just being a natural outcome of your engagement with other side content), it would really cheapen it if the very unlikely act of forcing a Yama King into taking a deal would be reduced to "yeah, for the next 20 years, a bullet will miss you every now and then and you won't choke to death on a fishbone."

Spoiler

But what's the alternative to "you will sometimes dodge a gunshot that seemed sure to hit and you won't have to worry about choking on food, ever?". Infinite luck? As in, you can challenge a Dragon to a bare-knuckle fist fight to the death and still somehow win by getting a lucky shot or that Dragon suddenly collapsing from a heart attack or something?

"Your every wish fulfilled, your every desire granted", the Yama King says, and that's about all the specifics you get. So if my wish is to depose Lofwyr as the CEO of Saeder-Krupp and take his place, is the luck buff powerful enough to make it happen in 14 years?

 

[rojay]

I dunno, living in Brazil that sounds relatable rather than lazy.

That sucks. Sorry, dude.