What makes a Dungeon Crawler be considered hard?

[JacksonSteve]

I've played very few Dungeon Crawlers in my RPG experienced, most of them being japanese ones, like Demon Gaze, Strangers of Sword City and Mary Skelter.

One thing that made me curious recently is that a lot of people on the Codex are complaining about the recent Labyrinth of Yomi being too easy.

And then I ask: what makes a Dungeon Crawler hard? I've heard a lot about wizardry being very hard, but isn't this more because of the lack of QoL stuff than anything else? I mean, I know that there are enemies in wizardry that can wipe your party if they cast a specific spell, but isn't this more of a luck dice throw than anything. It doesn't seem hard, but just frustrating.

Or are there more details that I'm missing? In the old-school crawlers maybe it's harder to fine tune a party or something like this? Or maybe there's more grinding required?

 

[Broseph]

Here’s one example for you: in older dungeon crawlers without automapping, navigating the dungeon itself was part of the challenge because there were often teleporters and pitfalls placed around the maps that were meant to disorient you and make it harder to figure out where you were.

 

[JamesDixon]

Here’s one example for you: in older dungeon crawlers without automapping, navigating the dungeon itself was part of the challenge because there were often teleporters and pitfalls placed around the maps that were meant to disorient you and make it harder to figure out where you were.

I remember a friend I had in the 1990s. He loved the Ultima series of games. For each one of the games, he would hand map everything and put the maps into a plastic sheet protector. The plastic sheets went into a binder dedicated to that game. It is as you said part of the challenge.

 

[Dorateen]

And in old school open world dungeon crawlers, there might be little in the way of direction, leaving it to the player to figure things out from their own discoveries through exploration. There was challenge in discerning what to do, or where to go, next.

 

[Ysaye]

I've played very few Dungeon Crawlers in my RPG experienced, most of them being japanese ones, like Demon Gaze, Strangers of Sword City and Mary Skelter.

One thing that made me curious recently is that a lot of people on the Codex are complaining about the recent Labyrinth of Yomi being too easy.

And then I ask: what makes a Dungeon Crawler hard? I've heard a lot about wizardry being very hard, but isn't this more because of the lack of QoL stuff than anything else? I mean, I know that there are enemies in wizardry that can wipe your party if they cast a specific spell, but isn't this more of a luck dice throw than anything. It doesn't seem hard, but just frustrating.

Or are there more details that I'm missing? In the old-school crawlers maybe it's harder to fine tune a party or something like this? Or maybe there's more grinding required?

• As mentioned above by multiple people, Yomi and the other Experience Inc games have automatic mapping, and Etrian Odyssey has partial auto-mapping that immediately makes those games easier. Compare this with original Wizardry 1-5, Elminage games, or the recent Wizardry 5 Ordeals, in which you can only use a spell to get a map (Elminage also has an item that breaks randomly as well) - this means keeping a track of where everything is vitally important, particularly if you add in spinners, teleporters and pits and stuff that will instantly make you doubt where you are.
• Another thing is in some of the more traditional Wizardries, you get really bad status effects like poison, paralysis, level drain etc. and lots more instant death things sitting with the enemies. If you play the second map in Elminage Gothic you already get archers that will totally decimate your mages, and then various enemies that just instant kill without some protection.
• Experience Inc games also have some OP class skills that make things a lot easier, namely all of their samurai classes have a "free" attack everyone in the front row, and their Bishop/Cleric class will have a magic wall skill that blocks n amount of damage.
• There was also a brutality about death in the original games where resurrection was not only expensive but also not very certain to work; you just don't want to have a character die under these conditions.

A good dungeon crawler should make you at n spaces into a dungeon make you seriously doubt whether you should go further because the risk and reward should exponentiate.

 

[Old Hans]

I've played very few Dungeon Crawlers in my RPG experienced, most of them being japanese ones, like Demon Gaze, Strangers of Sword City and Mary Skelter.

One thing that made me curious recently is that a lot of people on the Codex are complaining about the recent Labyrinth of Yomi being too easy.

And then I ask: what makes a Dungeon Crawler hard? I've heard a lot about wizardry being very hard, but isn't this more because of the lack of QoL stuff than anything else? I mean, I know that there are enemies in wizardry that can wipe your party if they cast a specific spell, but isn't this more of a luck dice throw than anything. It doesn't seem hard, but just frustrating.

Or are there more details that I'm missing? In the old-school crawlers maybe it's harder to fine tune a party or something like this? Or maybe there's more grinding required?

the only really difficult dungeon crawler ive played was that nintendo DS game Dark Spire and as usual its cause you dont have fireball yet

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

What makes a Dungeon Crawler be considered hard?

Well, there could be many factors:
1. Death is permanent (DO NOT DIE)
2. Attribute loss might be permanent.
3. Levelling is slow
4. Treasure is low and resources are low & expensive.
5. Food, water, light (torches etc) are NEEDED.
6. Dungeons are filled tricks, traps, puzzles, etc
7. Mobs are difficult constantly instilling the fear of factor 1 into you.
8. Only at town can you save, train, buy /sell, rest.
9. No automap
10. Time limit or safe haven id threatened or destroyed
11. No easy egress from dungeon (walking back is a bitch No?)
12. Game interface sucks ass.
13. Not turn-based but realtime or short timer for turn.
Probably others shit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

largely the same thing that makes most difficult games hard

1. you can't easily abuse save/load mechanics to trivialize the entire game

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Chaos Strikes Back is a perfect example of good hard DC. It's strongly non linear, the dungeon is one giant 3D structure, not just an ordered sequence of 2D levels. The game forces you to be creative in order to find a way to overcome apparently impossible difficulties.

 

[V_K]

Puzzles.
[/thread]

 

[JacksonSteve]

Thanks a lot for the answers fellas. Since I'm a popanole that hadn't played the classics yet (which I plan to do at some point) these things always made me curious because even games like Strangers From The Sword City gave me a lot of trouble in the post game stuff.

Also, do you feel like playing this games in a more classic approach (drawing your own maps, making an iron man challenge and so on) would bring them closer to the classics or their design doesn't allow this kind of approach?

Chaos Strikes Back is a perfect example of good hard DC. It's strongly non linear, the dungeon is one giant 3D structure, not just an ordered sequence of 2D levels. The game forces you to be creative in order to find a way to overcome apparently impossible difficulties.

That's really interesting to note, because in general, the real time DC are way more puzzle heavy than the turn based ones, right?

I always felt that the Codex didn't have much love for real time stuff and, as a consequence, for puzzles. The only "puzzle heavy" DC I've played so far is Grimrock and the only thing that made feel lost at some points is the fact that I had no idea if some puzzles required pieces that I didn't have yet or if I was just dumb to not be able to figure it out. I guess that in classics like Dungeon Master and CSB, where there's absolutely no handholding, this feeling must be much more present.

 

[Reinhardt]

level drain

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I wonder if some might have tried a hybrid TB combat & real time puzzle but I can't think of an example tbh.

 

[V_K]

I wonder if some might have tried a hybrid TB combat & real time puzzle but I can't think of an example tbh.

7 Mages and, if I'm not mistaken, Operencia. I can't remember exactly because the puzzles in Operencia are so insultingly easy they barely register.
Also, there's Vaporum which is RT with autopause option, making it effectively simultaneous turn-based.

 

[PorkaMorka]

JRPGs can also have combat difficulty tuned in different ways

- You automatically get enough experience from the expected random encounters to cruise through the next big fight, because your stats are good enough
or
- You don't get enough experience from the expected random encounters to win the next big fight, you have to grind to get your stats up
or (rarely)
- You get just enough experience from the expected random encounters to just barely win the next fight without grinding, if you use your party's resources skillfully

If a developer tunes the difficulty correctly, the game can feel challenging but rewarding in a minimal grinding playthrough, even though you can technically trivialize it by grinding. It usually doesn't work out this way though.

 

[Reinhardt]

You can do it like in Labyrinth of Touhou - you can grind all you want but best rewards for boss fights are offered if you beat them before reaching certain level.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Speaking from my personal experience, too many obscure puzzles or too few clues to know how to progress. Not a blobber, but Zelda: A Link to the Past on my SNES still leaves a slight stink in my nose when I think of that unlit torch in the dungeon you needed to light to open the wall/secret passage. For all I knew, it was just a fucking torch that went out. Didn't know I had to light the goddamned thing to continue the game. I played Wizardry VI on my Amiga A500 and exhausted all explorations to find the way to get to the next lvl so I reluctantly never finished it. It was probably a puzzle that I missed.

 

[lycanwarrior]

Legend of Grimrock 2 if you want a difficult dungeon crawler. Especially the final boss, good lord I just gave up trying to beat him and decided to just do the alternate ending lol.

 

[j2alg]

A few difficult dungeon crawlers fall into the camp of Labyrinth of Touhou, Etrian Odyssey and Dungeon Travelers - where exploration is fairly forgiving, but some of the boss fights feel like the developers bend you over a table and fill your anus with hot elephant cum.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

and decided to just do the alternate ending lol.

The alternate ending is even harder and isn't it required to beat the final boss to get to it?

 

[Kruno]

What makes a Dungeon Crawler be considered good?

Well, there could be many factors:
1. Paying for cheats
2. Micro-transactions
3. Levelling happens every 2 minutes with lots of stat points into +1 to hit
4. Treasure is everywhere, see Diablo 3
5. Food, water, light (torches etc) recover 100% hp and mp.
6. Dungeons are filled with romances
7. Mobs are dummies that take 5 minutes to kill a single enemy
8. save, sell and buy things everywhere
9. A single corridor so as not to confuse people with high iqs (iq is like scoring in golf)
10. Time limit until the game gives you progress
11. infinite town portals
12. AAA graphics
13. The game plays itself
Probably others shit.

ftfy

 

[Rincewind]

Puzzles.
[/thread]

Wanted to write a one-word reply, but this gentleman beat me to it.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The alternate ending is even harder and isn't it required to beat the final boss to get to it?

Legend of Grimrock II has one ending that can be obtained after defeating a certain individual in what appears to be the game's "final battle", but also a second ending

Spoiler

that can be obtained by acquiring all 20 power stones (only 16 are needed to reach the first ending) and then finding the way to the true "final battle" which is quite a bit more difficult.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

For the longest time I thought the TRUE ending of Anvil of Dawn was where you died destroying the dark slag. I dunno how I didn't try the soul link spell. Lol. I thought... damn that's kind of epic.