What's the best in grid-based dungeon design?

[JarlFrank]

I haven't gotten to 6-8 yet.

Wizardry 6-8 are fucking awesome!

If you play 8, do use WizFast for it though because ugh, those walking animations really draw out the combat.

 

[Snorkack]

from the maybe decent ones (M&M NES)

Don't do it, bro.

Would it be accurate to say that later Wizardry games got away from knotty dungeons and focused more on exploration? I haven't gotten to 6-8 yet.

that pretty much nails it.

 

[treborSux]

I haven't played Eye of the Beholder in a long time, I just remember it being randomly generated. I played the Amiga version if it made a difference.

 

[Ashenai]

I haven't played Eye of the Beholder in a long time, I just remember it being randomly generated. I played the Amiga version if it made a difference.

The Amiga version was essentially the same as the PC version. Neither is randomly generated. Neither feel remotely like they're randomly generated. Maybe you're confusing it with another game?

 

[dragonbait]

Silvern Castle seems to be an improvement over the old Wizardry I-IV games and I've wanted to play this game for a while now, but getting it to run on an Apple 2 emulator has been a pain and has prevented me from doing so, so far. Definitely worth checking this out though if you can manage to get it set up properly with an Apple emulator. Perhaps someone more familiar with setting up an Apple 2 emulator could assist further? Maybe [B]Crooked-bee[/B]?
It's at least worth a view.
http://finkjsc.a2hq.com/silverncastle/

Yes, I should even have an AppleWin-compatible HDD image somewhere. Let me check... Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/download/mjdw6axp8v8ha3s/silvern_castle_9.5.1_autoboot.hdv

It's a hard disk drive image, do not load it into the floppy slot. Instructions: Run AppleWin -> Press F8 for options -> In the Disk tab, Enable hard disk controller in slot 7 -> Select HDD 1 -> Select the image you've downloaded -> exit the options, run the game. (If this doesn't work for you, just follow the instructions on the website.)

It's good - and I do recommend it - but I wouldn't call it an "improvement", since the character system is different and from what I remember it has some really bullshit design decisions meant to artifically pad out the play time, like the xp requirements for non-humans (or something to that extent, I can't recall exactly).

YES! SUCCESS! Fiinally it's working! Thanks Bee!

I've a feeling Sir Koolaid's not gonna last too long. :O

 

[dragonbait]

...Incidentally, Eye of the Beholder on Gameboy Advance is supposedly an entirely different game from the PC/SNES one, I don't suppose any of you know anything about that?...

The EOB gameboy advance version could have been a really great game... You travel around in 1st person view through the dungeon and switch to gold-box-like turn based combat for battles. Sounds great right?, but battles are so cramped that there is hardly any room to maneuver and your characters often get in the way of each other. A bit more breathing room would have been nice. It's alright, but the DOS, Amiga versions etc are much better. Neat thing though about the GBA version is that it also fits into a Nintendo DS so I can play both this and Dark Spire on the go.

 

[bussinrounds]

Yea, same deal as D&D Order of the Griffon pretty much.

 

[Lady_Error]

Would it be accurate to say that later Wizardry games got away from knotty dungeons and focused more on exploration?

I wouldn't say so. Wizardry 6 is still mostly a dungeon experience, and an excellent one at that. In my opinion 6 is even better than 8 in many ways. Wizardry 7 (and 8) have a lot of overland exploration, but at least in 7 the dungeon design is top notch - and there are a lot of them.

Randomly generated dungeons blow. I hated Eye of the Beholder. It felt empty, generic and soulless.

Wat ? EOB isn't randomly generated..

He may have been talking about Dungeon Hack.

Yes, I think so too. Dungeon Hack looked like EOB, though it was only one party-member and the dungeons were randomly generated.

 

[V_K]

I always thought of the overworld in Wiz7 as just another (giant) dungeon - it largely worked the same way. Less so in Wiz8.

 

[mondblut]

I always thought of the overworld in Wiz7 as just another (giant) dungeon - it largely worked the same way. Less so in Wiz8.

Exactly. Coloring the walls green hardly makes a different game.

What Wizardry 6 onwards did differently was introducing an overarching plot (and with 7, fairly open-ended exploration) to go along with grinding random encounters.

 

[Kuhrazy]

Don't do it, bro.

I already got MM1-6 from gog, so I wouldn't. It's got some seriously catchy music, though.

Wizardry 6-8 are fucking awesome!

If you play 8, do use WizFast for it though because ugh, those walking animations really draw out the combat.

I've got 6-8 through Steam, it's just a matter of getting around to them. I'm working on the SNES versions of 1 and 5 atm. The funny thing is they have this rep of being totally archaic and unplayable games, but working through them in wireframe mode with a tablet and a notebook of graph paper is the most fun I've had with a video game in a while.

I kinda want to jump to 8 just to see what's up with the combat. I looked at the manual but I still can't picture it.

 

[JarlFrank]

Playing one save from 6 to 8 is pretty rewarding, you can import your savegames from 6 to 7 and from 7 to 8.

 

[dragonbait]

Fate: the Gates of Dawn! It is pretty awesome, with a lot of interconnections, sub-levels, hidden sections and plain odd stuff. Good luck completing the first dungeon, though, because it is larger and more complicated than some full games.

To get an idea, here is the first city you enter:

Spoiler

The dungeon is six (or seven?) levels deep, each of which is roughly this size, but more complex due to the whole 3d thing.

Looks pretty cool. Not sure how far this dungeon goes off in the eastern direction as the map seems not fully complete. Generally, I like when games have dungeons that can fit their levels on to one 8 by 11 page of graphing paper. When it starts to get into the 2nd and 3rd page of the same dungeon level, I start losing interest unless there are fewer levels to the dungeon.

 

[Ashenai]

Looks pretty cool. Not sure how far this dungeon goes off in the eastern direction as the map seems not fully complete. Generally, I like when games have dungeons that can fit their levels on to one 8 by 11 page of graphing paper. When it starts to get into the 2nd and 3rd page of the same dungeon level, I start losing interest unless there are fewer levels to the dungeon.

I think it depends a lot on what's in the dungeon. A single dungeon level can be varied and fun, or stultifyingly same-y, it's all about the level design. I remember Menzoberranzan having huge dungeons, but the real problem was that they were quite literally a maze of twisty passages, all alike. Almost every level was a giant maze with relatively few points of interest. I haven't played Fate, but just based on the map, it already looks a whole lot more interesting.

 

[octavius]

Yes, I should even have an AppleWin-compatible HDD image somewhere. Let me check... Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/download/mjdw6axp8v8ha3s/silvern_castle_9.5.1_autoboot.hdv

It's a hard disk drive image, do not load it into the floppy slot. Instructions: Run AppleWin -> Press F8 for options -> In the Disk tab, Enable hard disk controller in slot 7 -> Select HDD 1 -> Select the image you've downloaded -> exit the options, run the game. (If this doesn't work for you, just follow the instructions on the website.)

It's good - and I do recommend it - but I wouldn't call it an "improvement", since the character system is different and from what I remember it has some really bullshit design decisions meant to artifically pad out the play time, like the xp requirements for non-humans (or something to that extent, I can't recall exactly).

I'm about to play Silvern Castle myself.
The HDD image you posted worked swimmingly, so with technical problems out of the way it's over to RTFM.

I see there is a toggle to reduce XP needed to advance past lvl 9, and to reduce the non-humans penalty from 4X to 2X. Do you recommend doing so?

Also, how is the level design? Is each level self contained, or is the dungeon more 3D like CSB?
Does the auto-map ruin the mapping challenge, by showing secret doors?

 

[Crooked Bee]

I'm about to play Silvern Castle myself.
The HDD image you posted worked swimmingly, so with technical problems out of the way it's over to RTFM.

I see there is a toggle to reduce XP needed to advance past lvl 9, and to reduce the non-humans penalty from 4X to 2X. Do you recommend doing so?

Also, how is the level design? Is each level self contained, or is the dungeon more 3D like CSB?
Does the auto-map ruin the mapping challenge, by showing secret doors?

Definitely yes to reducing the non-human exp penalty, imho.

My memory is hazy re: the rest. I do seem to recall there being a certain condition to having secret doors displayed on the auto-map, so it's not just automatic (some sort of spell that shows them, I guess?).

 

[Old Hans]

Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land had some really nice dungeon designs

 

[octavius]

Definitely yes to reducing the non-human exp penalty, imho.

Orcs seem to be totally useless?

Also, I can't find any detailed info about the stats. Would be interesting to know if it works like Wizardry and D&D, and only stats of 16-18 give bonuses. I will assume they do.

So far I've decided on the following party:
Dwarf Fighter
Elf Mage
Gnome Priest
Hobbit Thief

Human ?
And I can't decide wether to go for an Orc Fighter or a second Human.

From what I've read in the "Tome of Arcana" (containing what seems to be the only noteworthy discussions abot the game) the game is far more difficult than Wizardry 1.

Also, it seems like demi-human will eventually be as useless as they were in the Forgotten Realms Gold Box games, so it seems the best long term strategy would be to start with three Dwarf Fighters in the front, and three Humans in the rear, and gradually phase out the Dwarves with three additional humans.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Yeah, one of the main ideas of party building in this game is to replace non-humans with humans eventually, iirc.

I'm curious to hear your impressions.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

What are you talking about? Dungeons of Human Master Race Eugenics ?

 

[JudasIscariot]

I know it's but Elminage Gothic has some really twisted dungeon design coupled with the fact that your map is a consumable item makes for an interesting game

(Also, I am plugging Elminage Gothic because the damn game FINALLY runs via WINE for me :D)

 

[octavius]

Hey Crooked Bee, which key do you use for the Options/Close Apple key in Silvern Castle? I'm trying to cast a Reverse spell. Alt-Gr is supposed to work, bit doesn't. Regular Alt works for the Open Apple key, though.

 

[octavius]

Hey Crooked Bee, which key do you use for the Options/Close Apple key in Silvern Castle? I'm trying to cast a Reverse spell. Alt-Gr is supposed to work, bit doesn't. Regular Alt works for the Open Apple key, though.

Never mind. I found the solution - changing from Norwegian to English (US) keyboard.

 

[Kuhrazy]

Cool to see this thread still kicking. I'm still at it with these games.

1) I reached the last level of Wizardry I (SNES) but the game is so stressful at this point I can barely bring myself to go on.

2) I'm stuck as hell near the start of Wizardry 6 but can't bring myself to look up the solution.

3) On the last dungeon (or thereabouts) of Etrian Odyssey 4. The draw-your-map gimmick seems somewhat wasted on fairly simple dungeons, especially since it semi-automaps anyway.

4) More than 60% through World of Xeen, I think... it's hard to tell. Glad I don't have to graph all that by hand.

5) I played a few levels deep into an NES game called Swords & Serpents. It's pretty much a straight Wizardry clone with some streamlining. Hardest part of the game is inputting the passwords.

Somehow Wizardry 1 was still the most fun as a mapping game, even if the sadism seems a little over the line. I'd like to try Tales of the Forsaken Land but I don't think I have a way to play it.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Playing all of those games simultaneously seems like a sure way to burn out. Why would you not enjoy them one at a time? Xeen is awesome, for example.