Why a game like Daggerfall can't be made today.

[crpgnut]

Pirating happens and no company nor government can stop it. Companies ACTIVELY encourage pirating by not selling legal copies of their old product. Even if it's not highly profitable, it would be wise to keep old product available, especially in ongoing series such as TES. Gamers are going to want to go back and play earlier games in the series just to see where the roots of a particular game started.

In the case of Daggerfall specifically, Bethesda would make money on this title still if they so desired. It is beloved. It might have been the buggiest game I have ever played, but it introduced elements to crpgs that still haven't been matched to this day.

If Bethesda rewrote the loader so that Daggerfall would run on XP and redid the graphics it might sell a million copies. Morrowind, nor it seems Oblivion, can touch the complexity and depth of Daggerfall.

To be honest, I sometimes feel like the current Bethesda crew is justifiably jealous of Daggerfall. It set a bar so high and they can't come close to attaining its heights. Why? Because Todd and the suits are so focused on the technology (eye-candy) that they won't sacrifice it for deeper gameplay. You can't render 500 NPCs in a city with a high definition 3D engine, it'd crash the fastest computer made. A sacrifice has to be made. Either we sacrifice depth (Daggerfall) or eye candy (Morrowind). Eye candy sells so depth is thrown out the door. I can't argue with their decision either, from a business standpoint.

How far back graphically would you have to go to just remake Daggerfall? My guess is Might and Magic VIII's level of graphics. With the power of today's processors, MMVIII could render 500 NPCs in a city and have very large numbers of buildings in each, etc. Who would pay $60 for it? Nobody.

 

[Twinfalls]

Daggerfall's cityscape and building interior graphics, from a design and artwork point of view, are superb imo.

I'd love to see what a basic lick of paint in the form of filtering, and maybe a higher resolution, would do for it.

 

[crpgnut]

Can't argue with you there, Twinfalls. I'd love for Daggerfall to be re-released in any form as long as it worked on XP without jumping through hoops

 

[Jed]

They should release the source code and see what their beloved community could do with it.

 

[Chefe]

To those who might say "Daggerfall is a DOS game, it won't work in XP" let me reply to you now with "PC Gamer once released a version of Monkey Island I that runs fine on XP systems without ScummVM". Now that that's out of the way...

Of course the current team is jealous. Howard and Rolston can never match the talent of Peterson and LeFay.

They'll never release the source code. Why? The Daggerfall Remake project will explode and be a complete slap in the face to Oblivion. Imagine if the guys at the DF Workshop, with their love of deep roleplaying games and desire to re-create Daggerfall in all its glory (with better graphics, less bugs, and XP compatibility), got a hold of the source code. RPG gamers would rejoice. They'd play it and be astounded. Then, they'd play Oblivion and lament. The updated graphics would appeal to the newer gamers who would be amazed. It would be, without a doubt, one of the most downloaded programs on the net and could quite possibly usher in an RPG gaming renessiance by allowing roleplaying developers and gamers everywhere to rediscover their roots.

Bethesda, with their now-apparent (because of the remake) raping of the series, would turn into a scorn of the PC world. They'd perminanetly migrate to consoles where they would die when the next fad comes along.

 

[Spazmo]

Uh... guys, I think you're confusing "re-release of Daggerfall" with "second coming of Jesus Christ".

 

[Chefe]

It's the release of the source code that would be related to the second-coming.

 

[Balor]

RPG gamers would rejoice. They'd play it and be astounded. Then, they'd play Oblivion and lament. The updated graphics would appeal to the newer gamers who would be amazed. It would be, without a doubt, one of the most downloaded programs on the net and could quite possibly usher in an RPG gaming renessiance by allowing roleplaying developers and gamers everywhere to rediscover their roots.

And the capital of the world will be moved to New-Vasiyki!
(Sorry, I just couldn't help it )

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Word is that they do not have it any more. It apparently was lost when Bethesda moved offices.
The rarkbasic remake unfortunately seems to have died, sigh.

 

[HardCode]

I HIGHLY doubt that a software company keeps their nightly backups on-site, on one set of tape, that they can "lose".

Their software is backed up off-site nightly with one of the media backup companies, or they are retards. So, if they indeed said that, they are either retards or lying.

 

[Jason]

I seriously doubt anyone at the company is "jealous" of Daggerfall. Despite what many Codexers think about Daggerfall, it seems fairly obvious that Beth thinks that Morrowind was a huge imporvement in every way and Oblivion will be an even bigger improvement. I originally thought they wouldn't re-release it so they didn't have people bugging them for support for a game they know is buggy and don't care about. But then they re-released Arena for free. So maybe they will re-release DF when Oblivion comes out or at their 15th anniversary or something.

 

[Chefe]

Word is that they do not have it any more. It apparently was lost when Bethesda moved offices.

Bethesda Employee 1: "Well, it looks like we're moving today."
Bethesda Employee 2: "Yep. A bright future ahead, with nicer cubicles."

BE1: "You've got the Daggerfall CD right?"
BE2: "Come again?"
BE1: "You know, that gold CD labeled 'Daggerfall source code'."
BE2: "Ah, well, I accidentally dropped it while cleaning out my stuff. The whole underside is scratched up; totally unuseable. Do you mind if I can borrow yo..."

BE1: "YOU FUCKING IDIOT! THAT WAS OUR ONLY FUCKING COPY!!!"
BE2: "What the fuck??? We spend 2 years on a game and we only have one fucking copy of the source code??"
BE1: "YES YOU STEAMING PILE OF HORSE SHIT! AND NOW YOU'VE RUINED IT!"

Todd Howard: "Calm down guys. It's not like Daggerfall is important. It was just a bunch of randomly generated crap."

BE1: "Todd? You burned the project the entire way. I hope they hired a new designer to replace your sorry ass."

Todd Howard: "Actually, they did, and made me your new project leader.... MUAHAHAHAHA!"

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Something like that, yeah

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I've said this before -- Bethesda is a VERY different company from the Daggerfall days. In those days, everything was very much haphazard. That is no longer the case, and hasn't been pretty much since ZeniMax entered the picture in '99.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I've said this before -- Bethesda is a VERY different company from the Daggerfall days.

No shit

 

[Chefe]

We all know you're a different company now. You'd have to be a fuckin' moron not to see that. You implement quest compasses to help fuckwits who can't tell right from left. You get rid of guilds and send your employees to school and learn about soil erosion.

I also fail to see how organized shit is better than haphazard RPG goodness.

 

[bryce777]

First off, I think you are overromanticizing the game quite a bit. It was a good game, but it was hardly ever a game with deep complexity or sophistication in its gameplay.

The sound is very well done, though; that is one area where the tech has supposedly improved dramatically but yet the actual quality seldon rivals that of the better older games, I have noticed. The graphics are also well done for what the platform, and the animation is all very good, and the dungeons and castles and towns all have different, interesting atmosphere.

It was fun to progress your character, and it was nice to have a big world to explore, and some of the factions were really interesting.

Rewriting the game would be pretty much impossible as far as just throwing in more graphics etc. They did not even have graphics accelerators back then and I doubt they could even get the old code to compile in whatever environment they use without tons of tweaking.

I would feel no remorse downloading it because I bought it at full price when it came out, though I doubt I have the disks any more. People obsess about piracy, but the reason they go on about it is because they are marketing games now to the teen demographic...ie people who are many times more likely to pirate a game. To anyone with a job, it is too much of a hassle to download a whole game, scan it for viruses, not be able to patch it, not have a cd for it, etc. etc. Piracy just makes no sense for me, or for any adult with a job who lives in the US. Piracy was always around, but now suddenly the publishers claim it is the bane of the pc industry...well, it's total bullshit. Publishers are the bane of the pc industry, along with directx which forces you to contantly upgrade your graphics card and sound.

As for not being able to make a game like that, I completely disagree. There is simply no reason for this to be the case...it was never a difficult game to play in the first place, and there is no reason they could not have made the gameplay exactly the same in morrowind - except because it is a crossplatform project and the GUI might be too complex. It is astoundingly obvious the morrowind gui is geared towards consoles and not pcs, but there are plenty of pc games which are not ported to consoles. In fact there are no pc games that I know of that do not royally suck which also were developed for consoles.

All this talk of simplifying things should read as "Making the game work with a console interface more easily, and gearing the game more towards the preteen and teen crowd."

 

[bryce777]

I HIGHLY doubt that a software company keeps their nightly backups on-site, on one set of tape, that they can "lose".

Their software is backed up off-site nightly with one of the media backup companies, or they are retards. So, if they indeed said that, they are either retards or lying.

Hahahaahaha!

That's a good laugh. Well, nasa lost the plans to their saturn V boosters....

Most places, they do not even use real source control! Let alone back things up constantly. the only sure backups of anything I have worked on are MY backups. Anything I do that I care about I keep a personal copy of, though honestly I have never ended up using it for anything...it just comforts me to know that no matter what happens, I could always restore it or rework it if necessary.

 

[Trash]

Well, al the stuff about besthesda being a different company is cool imo. The game was interesting, cool, but way too unfocused. The huge dungeons with the randomn quest stuff/enemy placement weren't that great either.

What I do wonder about though, and mr smileydude didn't comment on this. Does bethesda still have the daggerfall source code? It would be great if they released daggerfall and the sc as freeware. Would be some nice free advertising for the company and it would give mod people the chance to do that much more with the game. Just my 2 cents.

 

[bryce777]

To those who might say "Daggerfall is a DOS game, it won't work in XP" let me reply to you now with "PC Gamer once released a version of Monkey Island I that runs fine on XP systems without ScummVM". Now that that's out of the way...

Of course the current team is jealous. Howard and Rolston can never match the talent of Peterson and LeFay.

They'll never release the source code. Why? The Daggerfall Remake project will explode and be a complete slap in the face to Oblivion. Imagine if the guys at the DF Workshop, with their love of deep roleplaying games and desire to re-create Daggerfall in all its glory (with better graphics, less bugs, and XP compatibility), got a hold of the source code. RPG gamers would rejoice. They'd play it and be astounded. Then, they'd play Oblivion and lament. The updated graphics would appeal to the newer gamers who would be amazed. It would be, without a doubt, one of the most downloaded programs on the net and could quite possibly usher in an RPG gaming renessiance by allowing roleplaying developers and gamers everywhere to rediscover their roots.

Bethesda, with their now-apparent (because of the remake) raping of the series, would turn into a scorn of the PC world. They'd perminanetly migrate to consoles where they would die when the next fad comes along.

Considering more manpower goes into graphics than the rest of a game put together these days, that is not something which is likely to happen even if the source magically could be reworked to take modern 3d models.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I honestly think Bethesda for the most part doesn't care. They don't feel like releasing Daggerfall now because they haven't really decided what they want to do with it. The people that they want to buy their new games probably won't care much about Daggerfall anyway and would just be more eager to get Oblivion once they see what a big step away from Daggerfall it is.

As for non-sucky PC games that got ported, there are several Ultimas, Deus Ex (the original), X-Com, Worms, and probably a bunch more people who have played more games would know about.

 

[HardCode]

I've said this before -- Bethesda is a VERY different company from the Daggerfall days. In those days, everything was very much haphazard. That is no longer the case, and hasn't been pretty much since ZeniMax entered the picture in '99.

Does that mean ZeniMax pushes "Dollars, dollars, dollars" and can give a fuckall about the actual game and staying true to RPG roots and standards? For some reason, I don't think increased simplification and lessening of things like skills, weapons, factions, etc. are a step in the RPG direction.

I know, you wouldn't be allowed to tell us if you could.

I bet ZeniMax funds surveys at the local mall:

Surveyor: So, 9-year-old-kid, do you want complex quests and an extravagant storyline in the next TES game, or do you want simplicity and action?
9-year-old-kid: What? I jus' wanna be 1337 and kill shit! Die, die, die! Bad goblin!

Surveyor: I'll take that as Option B. Next, would you prefer better graphics or a more intricate system of skills that dynamically change what is available based on how you increase them, offering a much different gaming experience for each character you create?
9-year-old-kid: KEWL! Graphixz0rz! w00t! I wanna see nipple on the female elves! What's that other stuff you sayin' about?

Surveyor: I'll take that as choice A. Next, would you prefer to explore the world on your own, making it your responsibility to find people, places, and things in the game, or do you want a Quest Compass pointing everything out for you?
9-year-old-kid: What will quicker? I need to do my homework before mom gets home from the health club?

Surveyor: I'll take that as choice B.

 

[bryce777]

I should have said crossplatform developed, not ported.

 

[truekaiser]

What I do wonder about though, and mr smileydude didn't comment on this. Does bethesda still have the daggerfall source code? It would be great if they released daggerfall and the sc as freeware. Would be some nice free advertising for the company and it would give mod people the chance to do that much more with the game. Just my 2 cents.

they most likely have the source but won't tell anyone or release it untill either.

1. they go under(if oblivion tanks or doesn't sell well enough to make up for the multi-million dollar cost of the voice actors and school fee's)

2. 10+ years from now once they stop making the tes series after the failure of the fps tes6:the dadrith strike back.

why? it would cut into their profits. why buy oblivion when you can get a updated daggerfall for free?

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

Pirating happens and no company nor government can stop it. Companies ACTIVELY encourage pirating by not selling legal copies of their old product. Even if it's not highly profitable, it would be wise to keep old product available, especially in ongoing series such as TES. Gamers are going to want to go back and play earlier games in the series just to see where the roots of a particular game started.

In the case of Daggerfall specifically, Bethesda would make money on this title still if they so desired. It is beloved. It might have been the buggiest game I have ever played, but it introduced elements to crpgs that still haven't been matched to this day.

If Bethesda rewrote the loader so that Daggerfall would run on XP and redid the graphics it might sell a million copies. Morrowind, nor it seems Oblivion, can touch the complexity and depth of Daggerfall.

To be honest, I sometimes feel like the current Bethesda crew is justifiably jealous of Daggerfall. It set a bar so high and they can't come close to attaining its heights. Why? Because Todd and the suits are so focused on the technology (eye-candy) that they won't sacrifice it for deeper gameplay. You can't render 500 NPCs in a city with a high definition 3D engine, it'd crash the fastest computer made. A sacrifice has to be made. Either we sacrifice depth (Daggerfall) or eye candy (Morrowind). Eye candy sells so depth is thrown out the door. I can't argue with their decision either, from a business standpoint.

How far back graphically would you have to go to just remake Daggerfall? My guess is Might and Magic VIII's level of graphics. With the power of today's processors, MMVIII could render 500 NPCs in a city and have very large numbers of buildings in each, etc. Who would pay $60 for it? Nobody.

problem:frat boys have become the primary gaming market
now someone google earth the surrounding neighborhoods by colleges and we can figure out an solution... whatever it is the fraternitys that george w. and his dad go first :twisted: